How is the VSF that you tested used in the xover(e.g. tweet, mid, woof)? Which tested caps, if any, were not broken in? |
Grannyring, Trust me on this-- with a film cap supply you can go lower than the stock values of the replaced electrolytics-- a 50% ratio is conservative. |
Agree with Merganser. It's pointless to post an opinion of any new component until after 100 hours, and probably 200 hours for caps. There's a huge amount of misinformation that's circulated as a result of impatience. Some caps in some applications do sound good fresh out of the box. Such was my opinion of V-Cap TFTF when compared to Jensen PIO and to REL TFT-- despite widespread opinion that V-Caps require long break in. However the V-Caps kept changing and by 200-400 hours had obtained a very different & improved signature. Ditto for Mundorf Silver/Gold. IME the main thing that changes through break-in is that the better film caps relax and become supple, warmer, dimensional & airy. The forwardness and brightness that prompts some users to prematurely unplug them disappears. |
I have no experience with Sonicaps. It might be interesting to wire them in parallel and plug them into an AC outlet for several weeks, then reinstall. |
As previously stated, I think you're missing the boat in not defering judgment until much further into the break-in process. However it's delightful to hear that the experience has salvaged speakers that you were considering selling after three decades of ownership. Very few on this forum realize that a few hundred spent on mods may avoid tens of thousands in equipment churn. When those Klipsches were manufactured, the hobby was full of tinkerers. No more.
To Raul's point about neutrality: I started with internal mods to my CDP source, and continued modding progressively downstream as best I could with each component. I was first convinced that the source was the most important component, then later the preamp, then later the amp, and so on. Of course they all are! Do the best with each one, and with such high-quality piece parts you will probably find when finished that your system has achieved transparency & neutrality.
PS: I'm still trying to recover an original pair of Altec VOTT that I foolishly sold to my brother in 1977 for $150. |
There are a few credible builders who have observed that when all things are equal(same cap type and capacitance value)a large/higher-voltage version sounded better than a small/low-voltage version. However, when comparing different types of caps, size would seem to be of little importance. |
Volleyguy, I use copper foil througout my system, in various widths & thicknesses for ICs and speaker cables, and also the large Alphacores as 95kHz 18db/octave HF filter in my modded CDP. Yes foils sound great. Yes composition of dielectrics and natural vs. synthetic materials can be important. However, that crossover is starting to look like a Viking stove in tract housing. Do whatever you want--we are all drawn to exotic things-- but don't be surprised that a manufacturer of exotic crossover parts holds to the philosophy that a crossover is the heart of a hi-fi system. Conserve resources for other areas. |
It would be relatively inexpensive to try Alphacore air-core foil inductors. Cannot be certain, but it's likely that the sonic difference between ACore and your stock inductors is greater than the difference between ACore and D inductors. ACore sound really good. I believe they also make them in silver. What does Chris at PcX say, as he carries both manufacturers?
As someone mentioned above, alternative tweets might be the best spend. |
Volleyguy, the question becomes-- given other constraints in the Klipsch-- how far is it worth taking these speakers without looking at new drivers, or even more fundamentally, evaluating the absolute potential of Klipsch relative to more recent stock or tweaked designs. I know it is your mission to find out how far these speakers can go. But at this point, if the thread is worth continuing, it would be nice to hear your praise of Duelund in context of the running costs of the Duelund upgrade, and in context of all other components in your system.
For example, in my own(balanced) system, from end-to-end I have substituted about 16 critical coupling caps (V-Caps TFTF & Mundorf Silver/Gold) in four line-level and amp components-- and I have yet to experiment with the speaker cross-overs. Notwithstanding your advocacy of speakers & source as making the greatest difference, all these changes in caps were "revelatory." So I'm saying look at the system as a whole. As expensive as these crossover parts are, if they come to as much as 25% of total system value, then doubtless you're missing major opportunities to make meaningful upgrades elsewhere. |
To the matter of proportion I can only say I have heard Karik & Karik/Numerik-- these are very long-in-the-tooth by today's standards. Even by Linn's definition the Adikt is an entry-level MM cartridge and Kiarn & Klout are middle-of-the-road. The system would not look out of balance were Duelunds not AAA+++ both in price & performance. You're hearing large differences between crossover caps, but the question remains whether even greater and perhaps more cost-effective improvements could be made elsewhere in the chain-- in turn reveal more tellingly the characteristics of those crossover caps. As to Salvatore's website-- always interesting-- but as occasionally explored over on AA, there may be conflicts of interest.
Anyway, enjoy the experiment. I'm jealous as hell that I don't have a fist-full of Duelunds to play with. |
Russian caps are available in various lot sizes. FT-3 teflon, FT-1 teflon(compact 200V version), and K40Y9 PIO are all worth a look as coupling caps, and as filtering or bypass caps in PS. Space permitting they can be stacked in parallel to achieve larger values. |
It could be interesting to try some small-value teflon caps bypassing the caps you've tried-- particularly the Mundorf SIO. Mil-spec surplus NOS Russian FT-3 teflon can be had in .1uf-.22uf values on the cheap from Eastern Euro sources on Ebay. I've had good luck with these in electronics, but never tried them in speakers. I wouldn't pay attention to the published reviews of the russian teflons, unless they make it clear than they tested the superior FT-3 version. |
It's very easy to play with russian teflon, as FT-3 is <$5. Low price does not reflect upon the quality of these products of the old Soviet military industrial economy. However they are large in size (.1uf/600V is 1" x 2"). Volleyguy, if you'd like to try some & report results I'll send you a pair. They do require ample break-in. |
Some theorize that the great sound of some vintages gears may owe to continuing break-in of output transformers over many decades. |
Did anyone try Duelund graphite resistors in their xover? These look interesting. |
K40Y9 PIO sounds pretty good right out of the box and should improve within 10-20 hours. FT-3 teflon takes much longer to break-in and can be irritating until it does. I've had good luck paralleling K40 & FT-3; this seems to improve bass definition and treble clarity, as compared to K40Y9 PIO by itself. When mixing different types and values you should listen carefully for smearing of detail.
It would be interesting to have your views of these byapss caps tested separately on the tweeter and woofer sections. |
K40Y9 that you have are .22uf/1000V; FT-3 is .1uf/600V; FT-1 is .01uf/200V. Other values and voltage ratings are available on Ebay. All are OK for electronics within their voltage range. The russian seller claims to have tested FT-1 .01uf/200V out to 1000V.
If you don't want to wait for break-in of FT-3, put them all in parallel and wire the parallel pack in series with an AC load such as 75W or 100W lightbulb. Give them several weeks like that.
To hear K40 at its best, clip off the steel leads and replace with audiophile wire soldered to the stubs left protruding from the glass ends. BTW these mil spec PIO are hermetically sealed and should never leak. |
Volleyguy, thanks for checking out the caps & for returning. The Russians are cheap on ebay, should you decide to continue experimenting. |
Jody/Volleyguy, before you "lose you mind over vintage," kindly return to me the 10 teflon & PIO caps that I lent to you for testing long ago. Thanks, Dave |
I just finished combining .47uf/200V NOS Russian FT-3 teflon caps into 1.5uf "superpacks" in power supply of an Atma-Sphere MP-1 preamp. There was a vast improvement in sonics. For outboard crossover one could try paralleling a bunch of these $8 teflon caps from ebay, up to a practical limit of say 6-7uf-- and likely obtain a high-performance crossover based on premium teflon caps for a few hundred dollars. |
It's not unsurprising that the most expensive cap sounds good and possibly best. What remains unanswered is the importance of Duelund relative to gains that can be achieved upgrading other areas of the system. Hopefully this will be explored as you move past the vintage vs. Linn analysis & continue on down the path. The lack of such perspective was what led me recently to purchase Claritycap MR instead of much costlier Duelund. The question becomes how much to sink into one small area of a system. |
I wouldn't pay too much attention to that URL. Perhaps the results were application-specific-- who knows what quality of other parts were in his test preamp or what compensations he needed in a filtering cap. I've used Elna Silmic(admittedly original non-II version), BG, Nichicon, and Rubycon ZL interchangeably in the PS of highly modified CDP. I would turn his list almost upside down. The Rubycon ZLs he places at the bottom of his list, particularly when placed in parallel arrays, surpassed Elna in my set-up and were approximate to BG NP. The Panasonics are also very well respected with tube DIYers. I would not be critical, had I not heard for myself how good the Rubys sound in a high end application. |
Whatever one thinks of the Tempo review, I completely dismiss statements like A is 3x better than B relative to a 6x difference in price. This way of thinking has nothing to do with making objective assessments of high end andio products. |
Volleyguy, Tony Gee has a better handle than Tempo on how to rate caps. With Tony's method there is modest bracket creep. Caps that once led the pack at a 10 rating have been gradually surpassed by 10-20% improvements, raising the benchmark for SOTA to around a 12-13 point rating. The incremental progress one hears with equipment at the top of the high end occurs within a class of products that is trying to close a narrow gap between 9/10s and 10/10s of what's possible in audio. To talk about 3x improvements at this level is rediculous and pretty much discounts one's credibility as a reviewer.
Rationalizing value is a different issue. If trying for that, I would be tempted to opine that a handful of $11 Texas Components TX2575 resistors in preamp is better value than a $2000 in xover capacitors. |
Fas948, several modders of SCD-1 have simply removed coupling caps from output stage & observed no meaningful DC off-set. |
Felix, I was told that by someone who has modded the stock SCD-1 analog stage instead of replacing it completely as I have. In any case, there are much better places than Duelund to put money and achieve profound results inside that Sony. |
Felix, Always good to hear from someone who knows how good a modded SCD-1 can be. I have not heard the drop-in analog modules such as VSE, ModWright, etc., but rather have developed my own approach in combination with ideas from Ref Audio Mods, Allen Wright, and Zanden. After many iterations beyond initial step of component-for-component piece-part substitutions, I am happy with a transformer-coupled analog stage with just two TX2575 resistors in signal path(which replace two inferior stock Sony SMD resistors that none of the other modders touch), one battery-powered monolithic buffer, and no coupling caps, discrete op amps, or other active or passive components in signal path. In the stock analog circuit there are dozens of devices in signal path that color sound in addition to the coupling caps. Moreover, the analog stage accounts for less than one-third of the net improvement of mods performed throughout the player.
IMO, the problem with this Duelund thread is that even if Duelund makes the best caps in the galaxy, in most applications, taking a systems approach that deals with other weak links in the chain will produce superior sonic results for less money. At Duelund prices, I am happy to use the world's next best coupling cap, and focus on other areas. Coupling caps, of course, are easy to replace and compare-- which may account for their cult-like following.
As to aftermarket clocks for Sony, I've thought about Ultraclock, and will email you directly regarding other options. |
Volleyguy, I don't dispute the significance of quality crossover parts, and am myself using Duelund resistors in conjunction with Claritycap MR. (I'm looking forward to reading the results of Face's cap shootout.) But to put the value of Duelund capacitors in perspective, it might be useful for you to explore a systems approach by say, switching to updated tweeters in your speakers, or trying better internal wiring. Where selection of piece parts is concerned in electronics, I've become much more interested lately in very low-noise resistors such as TX2575. This technology was simply unavailable in vintage era. While one may argue that Fischer engineers understood the lost art of "voicing" equipment around available piece parts, I kid you not that the sound & transparency of resistors priced $.10-$10 is all over the map-- and just as significant to the sonic outcome as a $500 coupling cap, particularly in terms of revealing inner detail. And generally there are more Rs than Cs in the signal path to make a difference. Dwelling on the role of one coupling capacitor in the system begins to sound like an 85 year-old cardiac patient who believes his entire circulatory system has been cleaned up because he had a heart bypass. |
A well-considered & diplomatic response from the manufacturer with a refreshing lack of hyperbole. |
Your observation is consistent with the difference I've noticed between good dry-construction caps as compared to oil caps. I have switches on several source & line-stage components that allow on-the-fly comparisons between both types(Mundorf Silver/Gold(non-oil version), vintage Sprague Vitamin Q PIO, vintage LeClanche PIO, Jensen PIO, vintage Russian K40Y9 PIO). Most oil caps sound smooth & seductive at first listening, but in the final analysis tend to obscure detail and sound tubbie & sluggish. They do have their strengths--particularly in the presence region. |
I now have about five hours on Claritycap MR in Merlin mid/woofer section, replacing stock cryoed Hovland. This covers 2200hz down to low 30s in one driver. This was a big step up-- and a reminder that midrange and LF is where the music lives. The stage opened wide and deep, dynamics are full of energy with underlying calm, and instruments and voices sound more natural.
Having already completed coupling cap upgrades in phono section, line stage, Merlin BBAM equalizer, and amp(using V-Cap TFTF and Mundorf Silver/Gold in about equal measure), I'm coming around to Duelund's viewpoint that the speaker crossover is perhaps the most important target for a signal cap upgrade. |
I also use Duelund R and concur with Face. Duelund R sounds both cleaner and smoother in my Merlins than stock Caddock MP power resistors. At some point I will try Duelund C-- but not until I've attended to other mods to components that I believe have better price/performance ratio. Meanwhile, ClarityCap MR in Merlin tweeter is VERY good, and I will shortly be trying MR in Merlin woofer.
Volleyguy, I won't bother to compare the PIOs to each other, but only point out how tricky comparing caps can be, even to "well-educated" ears. Before I wired in the A/B switch to allow instant comparisons, I simply replaced the Mundorf Silver/Gold dry caps that I was accustomed to, with various PIO caps in sequence. In nearly every case I was inclined to say Wow! how impressive a change. But what was really happening is that my judgment was being carried off by the emotional content of the presence region. After installing the A/B switch, I was able to evaluate each cap carefully, and in the end came back to Mundorf. Once and awhile I need to switch in a PIO-- say to hear the last measure of stoic weathering in Johnny Cash's voice on Solitary Man. But there is fine detail that just goes missing with these PIOs, and a slurring of LF that becomes monotonous. |
I agree that the comparison of caps is useless unless the caps have been deployed in matched stereo pairs-- or unless the speakers are compared to each other separately as mono point sources. Here are some examples of similar perceived phenomena: (1) Install fresh tubes in one channel of an amplifier and hear improvements in both channels; (2) Install a supertweeter that works above the "audible frequency range" and hear improvements below the frequency range of supertweeter. |
I don't have enough experience with inductors to know which types tend to cause interference. However, the large Alphacore air-core inductors that I'm using as HF analog filters in my CDP, were intially a bear in terms of EMI fireworks. The problem was tamed through careful positioning. EMI/RFI cages are another approach, but one must be cautious lest excessive shielding smother sonics. |
I am a nature boy as well in some projects, preferring cotton-clad wire to synthetic insulation, wood-encased output transformers to mu shields, wood enclosures to metal. But there are so many exceptions of necessity that forming a cult of nature around electrical materials is mostly fruitless. There are other cultist goals to pursue, such as building power supplies that avoid all electrolytic caps. And those who distain plastic caps must remember that teflon-- possibly the best dialectric material and the only known material on which a gecko cannot obtain traction-- is a synthetic. Nature boys should also consider winding their own resistors on wood dowels. |
To the point raised about EMI generated by large inductors, has anyone tried Ti shielding? |
I recently heard a demo of Grand Veena presented by the President of Ref 3A at a local audio club. Beautiful treble & midrange-- in those sections I don't think they use any crossover at all. He mentioned that he uses Mundorf-- probably just for LF-- which was the weakness of that speaker. Duelund is likely above their $8K price point. |
If space allows, consider building an all film PS with Mundorf polyprop Tubecaps. I've been breaking in several pairs in my Atma preamp-- and they sound great. |
If you want to try some good NOS oil caps in PS of amp, cheap Russian MBGO from ebay are physically compact in values up to 4uf/400V. Adding such caps in values 1/10-1/100 of paralleled electrolytics should be audible. They can be further bypassed with .1uf or .01uf Russian FT-series teflon. IMO you are wasting your money with new- production caps in PS. |
The moniker quicksilvergurl is as yet unclaimed. |
As the thread moves into the rarefied air of CAST, it would helpful for Duelund Coherant Audio to share some specific models of commercial loudspeakers that use CAST. This would give more DIYers and audiophiles the opportunity to hear these caps and to rationalize their cost. |
Volleyguy, 10-20 hours break-in will at least bed in the solder and resistors, and probably reintegrate the sound. These quick takes at cold start are pointless. |
Merlin VSM is a two-way with a second-order crossover-- one series cap in tweeter section & one shunt cap in woofer section. You can easily hear what the cap in woofer section is doing from 2200hz crossover down to around 30hz. In other applications I've also found that improvements to shunt cap make a difference. |
Ait, I am addicted to TX2575 in electronics and believe it to be the cleanest sounding low-power resistor. That said, Duelund graphite resistors are superlative in speaker crossover, exhibiting transparency untypical of carbon comp. or carbon film. |
That's a compelling argument for a simpler crossover or perhaps a Lowther! |
"We all know it was dead quiet in the studio yet for some reason we are used to a little noise?"
I think you've touched the white elephant in the room with most audio systems. IMO the perceived liveliness and so-called treble air of a lesser system is riding up on top of an underlying noise level that casual listeners find impressive. Along these lines, after recently treating various components with AVM anti-resonance paint, my first impression was the contradictory sense of qualities both gained and lost. But after further listening, it became clear that despite a slight perception of treble darkness, treble detail and extension had actually been improved.
It was particularly impressive to apply this paint to monolithic DSPs and op amp chips, the tops of electrolytic caps, resistor bodies, and tiny closely spaced circuit traces in CDP and Merlin line-stage BBAM. I'm beginning to think of the entire audio chain from silicon on up (not just capacitors) in terms of internally generated microphonic resonant affects. |
Consider that the choice of synthetic vs. natural materials may serve different purposes in difference applications. The natural (silk?) wrap around each filament in a Marigo cable may serve to dampen vibration, independent of the performance of the material as a dielectric. Teflon in a cap may be chosen entirely for its dielectric properties. Metalized polypropylene in a cap may be interesting for its ability to be tensioned to reduce resonance, and for the reduced skin effect of thin film. Proper conclusions cannot be drawn without unpacking the many variables of engineering, and of course not all products are well engineered independent of choice of materials. |
To echo Face's comment, opinions about capacitor performance vary not only between speakers and electronics, but generally from application to application. I arrive at this conclusion as ClarityCap's North American OEM Sales Agency, through feedback on evaluation of many sample sets provided to both speaker and electronics manufacturers. |
IMO TX2575 is unsurpassed and make a difference almost everywhere they are used as budget permits. They are clean without a trace of sterility and are warm where they need to be. They are limited to .5W, which in crossover may mean a costly bridge of multiple resistors with degrading solder joints. Texas Components manufactures a bridge version with up to three elements in series. Maximum value per element is 100K. |
A low-TCR resistor like TX2575 sounds detailed, clear & quiet in the manner of a good coupling cap. However it is tricky to compare the effect of a resistor swap to a cap swap, as there are more resistors in path(at least in electronics) and the effect of changes are cumulative. If the electronics are good enough you can hear the sound of a single resistor, particularly around input of phono or coming off DAC and I/V sections. The technology to manufacture a low-noise resistor like TX2575 was simply unavailable in vintage era. |
