2. speakers
  3. 1211428524

Capacitor log Mundorf Silver in Oil

I wished I could find a log with information on caps. I have found many saying tremendous improvement etc. but not a detailed account of what the changes have been. I have had the same speakers for many years so am very familiar with them. (25+ years) The speakers are a set of Klipsch Lascala's. They have Alnico magnets in the mids and ceramic woofers and tweeters. The front end is Linn LP12 and Linn pre amp and amp. The speaker wire is 12 gauge and new wire.

I LOVE these speakers around 1 year ago they started to sound like garbage. As many have said they are VERY sensitive to the components before them. They are also showing what I think is the effect of worn out caps.

There are many out here on these boards I know of that are using the Klipsch (heritage) with cheaper Japanese electronics because the speakers are cheap! (for what they can do) One thing I would recommend is give these speakers the best quality musical sources you can afford. There is a LOT to get out of these speakers. My other speakers are Linn speakers at around 4k new with Linn tri-wire (I think about 1k for that) and the Klipsch DESTROY them in my mind. If you like "live feel" there is nothing like them. In fact it shocks me how little speakers have improved in 30 years (or 60 years in the Khorns instance)

In fact I question Linn's theory (that they have proved many times) that the source is the most important in the Hi-Fi chain. Linn's theory is top notch source with lessor rest of gear including speakers trumps expensive speakers with lessor source. I think is right if all things are equal but Klipsch heritage are NOT equal! They make a sound and feel that most either LOVE or hate. (I am in the LOVE camp and other speakers are boring to me)

So here goes and I hope this helps guys looking at caps in the future. Keep in mind Klipsch (heritage Khorns Belle's and Lascala's especially) are likely to show the effects of crossover changes more then most.

1 The caps are 30 years old and
2 the speakers being horn driven make changes 10x times more apparent.

Someone once told me find speakers and components you like THEN start to tweak if needed. Don't tweak something you not in love with. Makes sense to me.

So sound
Record is Let it Be (Beatles)
The voices are hard almost sounds like a worn out stylus.
Treble is very hard. I Me Mine has hard sounding guitars. Symbals sound awful. Everything has a digital vs. analog comparison x50! Paul's voice not as bad as John's and George's. Voices will crack.

different lp
Trumpets sound awful. Tambourine terrible. Bass is not great seems shy (compared to normal) but the bad caps draw soooooo much attention to the broken up mid range and hard highs that are not bright if anything it seems the highs are not working up to snuff. I have went many times to speaker to make sure tweeters are even working.

All in all they sound like crap except these Klipsch have such fantastic dynamics that even when not right they are exciting!

Makes me wonder about the people who do not like them if they are hearing worn out caps and cheap electronics? Then I can see why they do not like them! If I did not know better from 25+ years of ownership that would make sense.

For the new crossover I have chosen Mundorf Silver in Oil from what I have read and can afford. I want a warm not overly detailed sound as Klipsch already has lots of detail and does not need to be "livened up" they need lush smooth sounding caps. Hope I have made the right choice?

When the crossover is in I will do a initial impression on same lp's. Right now it goes from really bad (on what may be worn vinyl) to not as bad but NOT great on great vinyl. (I know the quality of the vinyl because tested on other speakers Linn)

The new caps are Mundorf Silver in Oil and new copper foil inductors are coming. I will at the same time be rewiring the speakers to 12 guage from the lamp cord that PWK put in. PWK was a master at getting very good sound often with crap by today's standards components.

The choice of speakers would be a toss up now depending on what I am listening to. Klipsch vastly more dynamic but if the breaking up of the sound becomes to much to effect enjoyment the Linn would be a better choice on that Lp. If I could I would switch a button back and forth between speakers depending on song and how bad the break-up sound was bothering me.

volleyguy

Showing 50 responses by sherod

sherod
1,690 posts
 
I just received my pair of Ampohm myler-in-oil. I am going to put them in my preamp outputs this weekend. Stay tuned.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
The Psvane 12ax7-T tubes are excellent tubes...very dynamic, clear and neutral. Give them some more time.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
I like Cardas Quad Eutectic. It flows smoothly and gives a good solid joint. There's a seller on Ebay that sells ten and twenty foot lengths for a reasonable price if you don't want to buy a lb. roll.

http://cgi.ebay.com/CARDAS-Quad-Eutectic-Silver-Solder-10-Free-Ship-US_W0QQitemZ130227548529QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item130227548529&_trkparms=72%3A552%7C39%3A1%7C65%3A12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

sherod
1,690 posts
 
Most of the new polycaps require a hundred hours or so to fully break in. Give them some time to smooth out before you go yanking them out.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
There are many top speaker companies who currently use Mundorf oil caps in their crossovers. You can get a lot more feedback on this subject on the Tweaks forum at Audio Asylum web site. The Sonicaps are a good quality cap. They might or might not be the right cap for your Klipsch speakers, but since you have them in there, I'd give them some continous play to make sure whether you like them or not in that location. Until the Sonicaps have been played continously for a few days, they will have a somewhat tight and restricted sound. After break-in, they'll begin to open up in the midrange while the frequency extremes will extend and smooth out as well. Here's a thread on AA for your info:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hug&n=6874&highlight=crossover+caps+for+Klipsch&r=&session=
sherod
1,690 posts
 
Here's another thread on the La Scalas:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hug&n=2674&highlight=la+scala+crossover

There are more threads in the Hi efficiency speaker forum on AA. Also, I believe Klipsch has a chat forum on their web site with much info re: crossover cap replacement in the La Scala.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
The fatiqueing sound from your La Scalas might or might not be due to the new caps. If you have a tuner or can put an old CD on continous play, I'd do that, turn the volume down and walk away from the system for a few days and listen again. Here's another thread on La Scala crossover upgrades:

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hug/messages/2/25576.html

sherod
1,690 posts
 
This thread might give you some ideas. Hey ! We're going to please your wife's ears yet. (O:

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hug&n=66637&highlight=la+scala+crossover&r=&session=

sherod
1,690 posts
 
Here's some more info to add to your research:

http://forums.klipsch.com/forums/6.aspx

sherod
1,690 posts
 
I recommend and 2nd the earlier posts from the gentlemen who suggested that you be patient and let the caps form and break in thoroughly before you get too excited about the sound. Not only do these caps require significant time to fully form and flesh out their ultimate sound, but they will probably do the rollercoaster ride of going up and down with their sonic changes. Some of today's better film cap types will do the "one step forward, two steps backwards" sound on you, so try to give each combination of caps enough time of evaluation before you dismiss one or the other and put in another prematurely. Trust me that patience is a virtue regarding this cap break-in thing. I'm glad to see that you're having fun, though, in the meantime. That's what this hobby is all about. (O:
sherod
1,690 posts
 
It looks like your friend might have to put some Duelands in his Heresy speakers. You've just turned your friend into an audiophile. I hope he has an understanding wife when he starts explaining why he has to buy all these new things for his system. (O:
sherod
1,690 posts
 
Volleyguy,
Did Dueland give you any idea of approximate time for break-in of the new Cast caps? I'm willing to wager that they need a couple of hundred hours to open up, hence the restrained mids and highs and accentuation of the bass effect. Give them some time. Turn your volume down for a week and watch some T.V. The World Series is on.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
If you're not happy after a week with the Cast on the mids, pop the vintage oils back in( you already know you like them there) and focus on some of the other tweaks recommended in previous posts. Bottom line, just enjoy the music. The tweaks are a fun part of this hobby, but don't let them prevent your ultimate enjoyment of the music.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
Wire is an important part of the equation, but $800.00 seems substantially over-kill. Is this wire on the Dueland web site?
sherod
1,690 posts
 
If anyone happens to have a pair of 4.7uf VSF or Cast they'd like to part with, I'd be interested.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
Ait,
Let us know how that Cardas Litz works out for you. Serguei, at Stealth Audio, is also a strong proponent of litz wire. In a good geometry, litz has many advantages versus other conductor types. Sounds like you're going to be a happy guy, especially after getting rid of the Monster stuff.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
Volleyguy,
Load up your speakers in a van or truck and take them into the dealers for comparison. That sounds like fun.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
I was informed recently from a key person at Reference 3a that their favorite caps for their speaker crossovers are in the following order:
1. Duelund Cast Copper oil
2. Duelund VSF copper
3. Mundorf Supreme Silver/gold oil
I am in the process of upgrading my Reference 3a Dulcet caps with the Duelund VSF copper. I would prefer the new Cast copper, but too much for my budget.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
Qsg is a great contact enhancer, but it is of no use on soldered connections.

Reference 3a is famous for their "minimal" approach to crossovers. My Dulcet mini-monitors have no cap at all on the mid/woofer. It is direct-coupled to the amp. I'm not sure how the crossovers are on the multiple-driver upper models. The tweeters on the Dulcet have one cap and one resistor and shunt. Very simple, time and phase correct.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
Volleyguy,
The President of Reference 3a has already told me that the Mundorf Supreme Silver/gold oil is superior to the aluminum/paper in oil type in there now. The two Duelunds are better yet still. I have already committed to the Duelund VSF for both speakers and am hoping for great things. I'll have them in about a week so soon I'll report on the sound with them in.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
Was that Hifisoundguy or his girlfriend just posting? (o:
sherod
1,690 posts
 
Lucky you, Face! I'm having to settle for the lesser VSF coppers in my speakers. Let us know how the Casts sound.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
My goodness! 60uf Duelunds! Are they the size of a football? (o:
sherod
1,690 posts
 
I just put a 2.2uf VSF copper in my mini-monitors and these Duelunds are very big and heavy compared to the caps that they replaced. The speaker manufacturer I bought these Duelunds from emphasized that the Duelunds require several hundred hours to fully break-in. So for those who claim that the Duelunds sound great right off the bat, then they will supposedly only get better with time. (O:
sherod
1,690 posts
 
Reference 3a has both the VSF copper and Cast in stock. I'm not sure, but I'm going to assume that the Cast is offered as an option for upgrade. I recently upgraded my Dulcet and the president gave me three options:
1. Mundorf Silver/gold
2. Duelund VSF copper
3. Duelund Cast Copper
I opted for the VSF since it was just marginally less expensive than the Mundorfs.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
Sorry, the VSF was a little "more" expensive than the Mundorf. I should have proof-read my post better.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
Hey Volleyguy! Congratulations on getting recognized in the Tempo Electric capacitor shoot-out page. I e-mailed Joseph there recommending he put the Claritycap MR caps in his upcoming shoot-outs. I'm considering getting a pair of Duelund VSF coppers to do a comparison with the Claritycaps in my preamp outputs.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
Attn: Duelund

Any chance of making the VSF coppers in a round-type shape for easier installation in electronics. I just installed a pair of the flat VSF coppers in my preamp and although the sound is fabulous, it was a nightmare shoe-horning these in to work. Unfortunately, I can't put the preamp top lid back on, but the sound is still worth it for me for the time being. (o:
sherod
1,690 posts
 
I finally got the nerve(and funds) to buy a pair of Duelund VSF coppers for the outputs of my preamp. I've had a pair of the Claritycap MR caps in there for the last few months so I'm anxious to hear the differences. The ClaritycaP MR replaced some Hovlands. As I've previously stated, replacing aluminum caps on my tweeters with the Duelund VSF coppers was a revelation, so I'm hoping that I'll get similar improvements in the preamp. Stay tuned.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
I think I'm finally understanding how detrimental plastic is in audio. I have replaced my speaker caps with Duelund VSF copper as well as the coupling caps in my preamp. I also recently went with new interconnects that don't have any plastic( i.e. teflon) in them. Each change brought me a much more natural musical portrait of the music.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
Volleyguy,
The interconnects weren't made by Duelund. They are from a relatively new company. I also installed some new speaker internal wire with special wire containing no plastic, these made for or by Marigo Labs. The speaker wires are one of my next projects.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
I agree. Choosing materials is one thing. How they are engineered into the final product is another.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
I'm a little confused. Are you saying that when you replaced the caps in the amp with the Duelund VSF, that's when you lost the magic?
sherod
1,690 posts
 
The human ears are still the best "magic meter" that mankind has. (o:
sherod
1,690 posts
 
Another new cable line is from a relatively new company in New Zealand called Antipodes:

http://antipodesaudio.com/

This new company makes only interconnects, but they are very innovative and novel in their design( they use no plastic)...I thought you would like that, and their unique design makes them less system dependent than any cable I've tried. Their entry-level Katipo is extremely musical and dynamic. The company is currently offering these cables in Audiogon auctions at real bargain prices and offer a 30-day guarantee. Currently my new reference in my system.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
What's the difference between this Cascade Audio V-bloc and AVM? Reference 3a is now painting all their driver magnets and baskets with AVM and it makes a nice improvement in clarity and dynamics.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
I would imagine the the Duelund wire, like their capacitors, need some time to break-in and adjust. Assuming that you wired it correctly, give it some time with music playing through it.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
Is there a photo somewhere of this Duelund hook-up wire? I can't seem to find it on the Duelund website. Parts Connexion is a distributor, but they only show pricing per foot and no photos. The .5( 18 gauge) seems to be their best seller.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
Here is a link to the manufacturers who use Duelund products. Some use only the capacitors and resistors. Others use both the caps and resistors as well as the wire. I also am curious, for those who use the wire, particularly in internal cross-overs, how they route the wires and what they might use for dampening the wire from the drivers to the cross-overs.

http://www.duelundaudio.com/References.asp

sherod
1,690 posts
 
So far, with the Ampohm polyester caps, after just 48 hours in my preamp outputs, they are showing real promise. Better highs and a more "see-through" quality to the music. I want them to break in some more before I give my final take. If they end up winning my heart, I'll be selling my pair of 4.7uf Duelund VSF coppers for a great deal. I'm beginning to think that the Duelunds are best suited for speaker cross-overs. Stay tuned.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
Speaking of Tony Gee, did you see his recent review of the Ampohm polyester-in-oil cap? I ordered a pair from The Tube Store to try in my preamp outputs. I'll bet these would sound great in your Klipsch for a lot less money.
Amp Ohm FE-XAL-AL 630VDC Polyester in Oil aluminium foil - 10% tolerance

Technical Specifications (according to manufacturer): "Ampohm Audio Capacitors are specially designed for high performance audio systems. These polyester film capacitors are hand wound using high purity aluminium foil and have their leads hand soldered before being assembled and hermetically sealed in an aluminium housing with phenolic resin and rubber end discs.The 1.0mm diameter tinned copper lead out wires are solder sealed to the eyelets in the end discs This construction results in these components being ideally suited for use as coupling capacitors or as replacements for components in existing designs. Line on label denotes outer foil."

Sound: The Amp Ohm polyester-in-oil alumnium foil is overall very coherent and neutral. This type has a pleasent midrange-highlight when in direct comparison to the Ampohm paper-in-wax alumnium foil type. The polyester-in-oil is very rich and extremely good in retrieving ambient information such as room or hall acoustics. Music is presented in a natural and full-bodied manner. Compared to the Duelund VSF-Cu copper-foil the image is more "see through". Compared to the Mundorf Silver-Gold-Oil the presentation is richer, especially noticable on massed strings or large vocal works. On small jazz-trio's etc the Silver-Gold-Oil high-lights micro detail a little more but doesn't quite reach the same level of overall coherence the polyester-in-oil does so well.

Verdict: 12+

sherod
1,690 posts
 
I got mine from the Tube Store:

http://thetubestore.com/ampohmmylar.html

I found the "see-through" quality to be across the board. Yes, the very highs are more extended, but I don't hear any exaggeration of any parts of the spectrum. Everything seems to be well-balanced. Like I said, I'm going to give these a good thorough break-in before I pass final judgement.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
The Ampohm will sound very closed-in and tight sounding for the first 2-3 hours. After that it starts to relax and open up and will continue to improve. I'm at about 65 hours with mine now and they sound better with each hour played.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
Well, I had waited until the 140 hour mark for the Ampohm caps and ultimately, although I really liked the top end airiness, the overall sound of the Duelund is just so much more natural and alive sounding. Also, like Volleyguy stated, the bass of the Ampohm just isn't in the same league of the Duelund. I have taken the Ampohms back out and re-inserted the Duelunds and all is well again. Anyone want a pair of like new Ampohm 4.7uf, 630V caps for a great deal? I need to stop tweaking so much, as it gets old even though it is a fun part of this hobby. Sometimes we audiophiles can't leave well enough alone. (o:
sherod
1,690 posts
 
I haven't tried the Duelund wire, but I did wire internally my speakers with a special pure copper wire designed by Marigo Labs. It has some type of silk or other natural covering and has nothing artificial in its composition. The wire has a very natural sound to it and with a single Duelund VSF copper on the tweeter, the speakers have never sounded so natural and lifelike. This particular Marigo wire was custom-designed exclusively for Green Mountain Audio. I was able to get a custom-made set for my minimonitors because the owner of Green Mountain gave Marigo the approval for me as a personal project in that I wouldn't be considered a competitor to Green Mountain.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
Volleyguy,
Silver usually takes a little longer to break in than copper, so be patient with it for a while. By the way, how's your comparison between the Ampohm and Duelund VSF copper going? I switched back to the Duelunds in my preamp. Just more natural and complete for me.
sherod
1,690 posts
 
So in a nutshell, draining the vibrations away vs. dampening would be most effective. How about the way the internal speaker wires are routed in the cabinet?
sherod
1,690 posts
 
The Sistrum stands are made by Star Sound Technologies:

http://www.starsoundtechnologies.com/

sherod
1,690 posts
 
Volleyguy,
20-30 hours on the Vcaps is nothing. I haven't tried the new copper version, but the teflon Vcap took over 400 hours to open up, and that was in an electronics component( preamp outputs)
sherod
1,690 posts
 
Based on my experiences with bypassing coupling and crossover caps, I'm in the same camp as Salectric. I have always preferred using one only of the highest quality cap( within one's budget and tonal preferences) with the suggested value. I always hear the bypass cap, giving the illusion of this false airiness in the highs, almost like a tilting up or shelving effect. I also believe that good quality caps, i.e. film and foil, need much more break-in time than some people might think. I don't have enough experience with comparing small bypass caps on large eletrolytics in power supplies. That could be another story. By the way, the top caps like Mundorf's SIO and the Duelund VSF copper, need a minimum of 200 hours before they show their true colors. This is just my personal opinion and your mileage might vary. :o)
More to discover