Got it. Sorry for the haste. |
I have recently completed a somewhat pseudo-scientific document about capacitor evaluations. The impetus for it came from Tony Gee's cap ratings published on his website www.humblehomemadeaudio.com
It's a .pdf and 6 pages with lots of links to lots of other cap evaluations.
PM me if interested in a copy. |
Been watching the Olympics as they were here.
Undertow nice to see you have liked the Duelund's.
The next Duelund cap should be along shortly for the amp. I am just kind of curious to hear Duelund vs. Jensen. |
Speaking of Tony Gee, did you see his recent review of the Ampohm polyester-in-oil cap? I ordered a pair from The Tube Store to try in my preamp outputs. I'll bet these would sound great in your Klipsch for a lot less money.
Amp Ohm FE-XAL-AL 630VDC Polyester in Oil aluminium foil - 10% tolerance
Technical Specifications (according to manufacturer): "Ampohm Audio Capacitors are specially designed for high performance audio systems. These polyester film capacitors are hand wound using high purity aluminium foil and have their leads hand soldered before being assembled and hermetically sealed in an aluminium housing with phenolic resin and rubber end discs.The 1.0mm diameter tinned copper lead out wires are solder sealed to the eyelets in the end discs This construction results in these components being ideally suited for use as coupling capacitors or as replacements for components in existing designs. Line on label denotes outer foil."
Sound: The Amp Ohm polyester-in-oil alumnium foil is overall very coherent and neutral. This type has a pleasent midrange-highlight when in direct comparison to the Ampohm paper-in-wax alumnium foil type. The polyester-in-oil is very rich and extremely good in retrieving ambient information such as room or hall acoustics. Music is presented in a natural and full-bodied manner. Compared to the Duelund VSF-Cu copper-foil the image is more "see through". Compared to the Mundorf Silver-Gold-Oil the presentation is richer, especially noticable on massed strings or large vocal works. On small jazz-trio's etc the Silver-Gold-Oil high-lights micro detail a little more but doesn't quite reach the same level of overall coherence the polyester-in-oil does so well.
Verdict: 12+
|
Sherod
That is indeed high praise of the Ampohm. I seem to recall reading about them in another thread and them getting high praise. I will do some checking.
I may try some as comparison. I have a few vintage amps and all caps do wear out. |
One thing thats forgotten in this thread is transducer interaction with network. Just because in one crossover on one loudspeaker someone changed capacitors and say ones better than another is purely subjective. Listeners tastes system room loudspeakers used ex cetera matter as much if not more than part chosen for network. Since so many variables these tests to me are useless. And only tell you weather the person doing test is enjoying the sound not that one caps better than another. And it may well be that they are better in this case but that doesn't mean that if I use in different loudspeaker design with dif crossover type that results would be the same. This is a problem for subjective reviews and testing. |
JohnK
"Since so many variables these tests to me are useless".
That is exactly why I started this thread there is not a number to put on sound of a cap. That being said the general rule of thumb is that Duelund sounds very natural to all who have heard them on this thread or Tony Gee or Tempo's cap review all done on different speakers. So to say the tests are useless is not very accurate at all.
There are of course variables from one human to another. I have mentioned on here before I found Tempo's review to be closer to my own ears anyway.
A quote from Tony Gee
"A hi-Fi system is a very complex sum of many variables, a capacitor is only one part of that total, so depending on implementation things may vary a little. On the other hand you can be assured that capacitor A with a 6 point rating won't "beat" capacitor B with a 10 point rating".
I for one did not find the Silver in Oil rated 10.5 better than the regular Mundorf Supreme rated 9 or at least I did not like the Silver in Oils flaws. Tempo is also on the same side.
Tempo said also a Duelund VSF was 2 or 3x better than a Mundorf Supreme at 6x the cost. Another accurate statement. Is it worth it? Only if you are keeping the speakers.
Now to the Ampohm caps very interesting. They are the OE for Audio Note, correct? So not surprised they are good caps as well and seem to be very good for the $. I found the vintage foil in Mylar to have very good tone.
|
JohnK
That being said I do believe DIY can be very time consuming and one needs to set a $$$ limit and be done and stick with it.
I am going to finish very soon and will likely be able to stick with what I have done. (I hope) That is where the discipline will have to come in. I am very happy with what I have done (best money in Audio I have spent) and how it sounds (the best I have ever heard so far) but it is the how much more can one get that has to be resisted at some point.
I am going to the local (50 miles away) very high end store to compare to their best systems when all done which is very soon. More of how did my $$$ get spent and was it after all a good deal relatively. |
In many hours of listening to the Silver Duelund wire I really like it.
The Silver wire does not favour any one freq and is very smooth.
The only comparison though has been the Duelund copper and the cheap stock wire. The cheap stock wire is frail sounding and tilts to certain freq. The Duelund copper recesses the high freq but is quiet.
I agree with Duelund the copper is good for the Woofer where I have it and Silver everywhere else. Silver might be better for the woofer as well but copper is cheaper. |
Volleyguy,
You have come this far on your journey why not just try the silver on the bottom end. Then you will know for certain if you think it is an improvement or not. |
I suppose I could Irish65.
I am going to be ordering some more Silver. I have only tried the .5 have you tried them all? Is there a big difference?
I am waiting on another cap from Duelund for the amp.
I can see why some like the mylar sound though as well as that is what was in the vintage amp. It is somewhat sharper than Duelund or Jensen which could be said to be creamier. I love that Duelund super natural sound but it is relaxed and the mylar caps that I have heard sharper in the high freq. I found this sharpness at least in the vintage to bring forward high freq sounds which sounded like more detail but I was sure the cymbals were not supposed to be loader than Norah Jones? I may try the Ampohm as they do get good ratings.
Sherod have you compared?
Tony Gee
"The polyester-in-oil is very rich and extremely good in retrieving ambient information such as room or hall acoustics".
Some have commented on the cost of all this which is substantial. On a complete sidenote. I am thinking of selling off the Lp12 and the VPI record cleaning machine at some point. I only got into vinyl as digital drove me crazy on SS. Since getting tubes and then Duelund parts in the crossover and Jensen and Duelund caps in the amp I can not hear ANY digital harshness.
The only downside with all this Duelund is it has really, really revealed vinyl wear. 80's vinyl is just junk for the most part wear is just awful. The good vinyl still sounds very good but the collection is shrinking fast. Selling off at least another 150+ lp's that I went through today. I was kind of sad and know why people made copies and did not play their vinyl at one time. The older '60's vinyl is much better.
I may go with just one digital front end as I do not feel the need for vinyl anymore.
So selling the LP12 in the future (which was about loaded) and the VPI will about cover the cost of Duelund parts. I am listening to 80-90% digital now and used to be 90% vinyl. |
Sorry
That of course should say louder not loader. Time for bed. |
I just received my pair of Ampohm myler-in-oil. I am going to put them in my preamp outputs this weekend. Stay tuned. |
I am testing the Silver wired speaker vs. the vintage wired.
I have switched amps to use an all vintage EL84 no cap changes nothing. Just to make sure on the wiring. |
With the Lp's I traded in part of my credit bought the Beatles Box set in Mono.
The set sounded awful at first. So I switched to the EL84 knowing that is what they recorded on. My opinion is the tapes are getting old. I do not hear any compression from the recording but my guess is the tapes are getting noisy from age.
I am not sure why the press thinks this set sounds good??? Even Micheal Fremer thinks they do?
I switched amps to check this along with the Duelund Silver wire.
The Beatles Mono set is noisy. A case were tape hiss reduction might be a good thing. Duelund Silver?
All this Duelund is making me fussy!
Sherod any word? |
So far, with the Ampohm polyester caps, after just 48 hours in my preamp outputs, they are showing real promise. Better highs and a more "see-through" quality to the music. I want them to break in some more before I give my final take. If they end up winning my heart, I'll be selling my pair of 4.7uf Duelund VSF coppers for a great deal. I'm beginning to think that the Duelunds are best suited for speaker cross-overs. Stay tuned. |
Sherod
Where did you buy them from? I might have to try a pair?
I only have the vintage foil in mylar and they have that "see through" sound so know what you are talking about.
Could you give a real close listen to see if there is a tilt. The vintage foil in mylar favours high freq giving the impression of clarity. Mine of course could be worn out of suffer from being physically too small. We know Steen did like vintage caps and used them till he came up with his own.
I find myself focusing on high freq instruments (cymbals etc) with the vintage caps. The Duelund/Jensen combination on the same CD of Jazz it is Miles and John Coltrane and the whole group. I really like the balance (Duelund/Jensen) but do know what Tony meant by "see though" and it is inviting. The cost difference is very big as well! |
I got mine from the Tube Store:
http://thetubestore.com/ampohmmylar.html
I found the "see-through" quality to be across the board. Yes, the very highs are more extended, but I don't hear any exaggeration of any parts of the spectrum. Everything seems to be well-balanced. Like I said, I'm going to give these a good thorough break-in before I pass final judgement. |
Thanks Sherod
The tube store is only one hour from where I live. I was on looking since my post. I will put in an order for some in the morning.
The only thing is I do not see below .1uf? in that style.
I have always wondered what a new Mylar would sound like? Will it solve the weakness of the vintage ones? |
Just ordered the Ampohm Paper in Oil Copper type.
I tried to get the Mylar but not available in my size. Tony Gee gave the Aluminum a 12- so one can assume the Copper is above that.
Should be in tomorrow or next day. |
My choice of amps right now are a completely vintage EL84 or one channel in a vintage amp (7591) all Jensen Copper Paper Tube and one Duelund VSF. The other channel all Jensen and one vintage cap with one speaker still wired non Duelund.
I can listen to the vintage EL84 amp for a short time and then miss the bottom end. (nice mid range though) My top choice is Duelund wired speaker all Silver except woofer which is copper and all Jensen/Duelund VSF in the amp. I so far have always come back to that and will listen to one speaker every time by the hour not missing the second speaker. Jensen (Copper Paper Tube) has great bottom end!
I am going to see how the Ampohm Copper works out. I can not deny a 1/8 price (over Duelund) (1/3 over Jensen) is enticing. No matter what the Ampohm will go to the FM section of a Fisher if it does not work out. I have not seen a case where a vintage cap could compete with a new "good" cap.
In the end I think it will be a modified EL84. I liked the EL84 much better than the 7591 before mods. I felt no worry moding the 7591 as I did not like it anyway. |
The Ampohm will sound very closed-in and tight sounding for the first 2-3 hours. After that it starts to relax and open up and will continue to improve. I'm at about 65 hours with mine now and they sound better with each hour played. |
I have an Ampohm Copper installed and is in direct competition with a Duelund VSF. The rest of the caps on both sides are Jensen Copper Paper Tube.
The Ampohm's are smaller than the Jensen's by a fair bit but twice as long as the 630 volt vintage and much bigger than the 400v cap it replaced. |
So far in just a few hours the Ampohm sounds remarkably similiar to the vintage Vishay caps.
Smooth mid range.
I will be ordering the rest of the Silver wire to compare on an exact basis Ampohm vs. Duelund VSF cap. So far not |
Sorry should say
So far not even close to the bottom end even of the Jensen Copper Paper Tube type. I do like these caps (nice mid range) and are good for the $$$ but Jensen Copper Paper Tube competition or Duelund VSF??? I can't see it.
I am actually shocked at how much more bass and dynamics are in the Duelund (just one cap) and Duelund wired speaker.
Sherod I wish I could use your VSF caps!
Early next week the rest of the wire will be in for a fair test and some hours on the Ampohm as well. |
Volleyguy,
You may have mentioned it in one of your many posts but have you tried the Duelund silver wire on the bottom end yet? Where most would think copper wire would be the better choice for the LF I have found the Duelund silver wire more to my liking. |
Irish65
I will give it a try. You could be right as the (flat) Silver wire was much better in the mid's and highs so why not the woofer?
Have you sold your Duelund parts yet? (the ones you were not using)
Can you fill me in on the difference in the Silver wire range? |
Well, I had waited until the 140 hour mark for the Ampohm caps and ultimately, although I really liked the top end airiness, the overall sound of the Duelund is just so much more natural and alive sounding. Also, like Volleyguy stated, the bass of the Ampohm just isn't in the same league of the Duelund. I have taken the Ampohms back out and re-inserted the Duelunds and all is well again. Anyone want a pair of like new Ampohm 4.7uf, 630V caps for a great deal? I need to stop tweaking so much, as it gets old even though it is a fun part of this hobby. Sometimes we audiophiles can't leave well enough alone. (o: |
Volleyguy,
The smaller gauge Duelund silver wire .5 or 1.0 is better suited for IC. I preferred thd 2.0 for speakers and crossovers. I would give the 2.0 a try on the bottom end. For me it added more definition and punch. |
Sherod
It is interesting this top end airiness. I have given this much thought. I agree with Steen this is added by the capacitor. The VSF even does it, at least compared to the CAST. Part of this resonance we are used too though, so it seems normal. On different music I have asked myself is that normal for the cymbals to be in front of (and louder) than lead singer? The answer of course is no. Yet the cymbals sound so real on the high resonance foil cap.
Duelund VSF does this much less than for sure Ampohm or any other foil cap save Jensen Copper Paper Tube. (that I have heard) Nothing against Ampohm at all as thetubestore is selling them as replacement for vintage parts and they are excellent for that application.
I would say that Tony Gee seems to like caps that tilt the sound upward or adds air? Not saying this is wrong. Tempo likes the Mundorf Supreme better than the Silver in Oil and I agree. Of course I think they were using vintage Tannoy's and I am using vintage Klipsch so both horn speakers which do not like or need a tilt?
Irish did you come from stranded plastic wrapped speaker wire? (before Duelund) I may upgrade the speaker wire before going above .5 in the crossover. ($$$ you know) I am going to try the Duelund as speaker wire before installing in the speaker. This for sure has peaked my interest.
Sherod
I know what you are feeling nothing like spending money on a lateral move or something not as good. I have a use for the Ampohm so not frustrated. Have you tried Duelund wire in the speaker? For me the copper Duelund for the woofer has been one of the biggest bangs for the buck. Might brighten your day on "upgrades". |
I haven't tried the Duelund wire, but I did wire internally my speakers with a special pure copper wire designed by Marigo Labs. It has some type of silk or other natural covering and has nothing artificial in its composition. The wire has a very natural sound to it and with a single Duelund VSF copper on the tweeter, the speakers have never sounded so natural and lifelike. This particular Marigo wire was custom-designed exclusively for Green Mountain Audio. I was able to get a custom-made set for my minimonitors because the owner of Green Mountain gave Marigo the approval for me as a personal project in that I wouldn't be considered a competitor to Green Mountain. |
Sherod
That' good on the wire.
More listening tests on the Ampohm vs. Duelund. (still waiting for more Silver wire) I just installed a fresh set of (output) tubes for the coming final tests.
It is unbelievable the difference in one cap in the amp. The Ampohm has it's positives. The Ampohm has what Tony calls "see through" this is in the mid's and highs in my mind. The Duelund cap might as well be on a different planet as far as tight tuneful bass. The Ampohm a sloppy mess at the bottom.
As soon as the back ordered wire (and VSF cap) get here I will give another listen but at this point for the life of me can not understand Ampohm at 12 and VSF at 12.5?????
The Ampohm is wispy and the mind focuses on higher freq. (where it does sound good) when the bottom is so loose. The Duelund is thick solid and has an extremely solid foundation that allows you to enjoy "all" that is going on.
I just do not get it, to me this is not even close?
I look forward to what Jimmy has to say about the Duelund CAST Silver.
Once the wire and VSF are here I am going to do a Jensen Copper Paper Tube vs. Duelund VSF. I expect a much closer competition than vs. Ampohm. I agree with Jimmy on what I have heard so far those both are the top caps. |
Still waiting???
Parts just not here yet. |
Parts came in today.
I am testing sound wise the more broke in Ampohm. I will test exactly when the silver wire is installed in second speaker. Listening to Tchaikovsky just a huge difference.
On Jimmy's website there is a comment from a new CAST owner saying
"It sounds dull,no dimension, small soundstage.
Thanks,"
I can understand where this person is coming from the CAST are a shockingly low resonance cap. They do not add anything I can hear of, to spice or colour things. I actually went up to hear if the tweeter was working. (and this was compared to VSF)
The Duelund parts have eliminated a few hundred pieces of vinyl I had. They can make the upper freq so clear it amazing but this will also show when the source is not good. You have no doubt.
What is good about low resonance cap.
1 Very dynamic.
2 Quiet, much less noise
3 Tight, accurate, sound with solid bass.
4 Instrument separation and accuracy
What is not so good about low resonance cap
1 reveals upstream weakness. (such as worn vinyl or digital harshness)
2 No echo to smooth out sounds
3 Does not give a added air to sound like high res caps.
The huge downside with high res caps is the resonance, yes can add fullness to the sound of some instruments but this is not done uniformly just at the freq of the resonance. This is done at the expense of upper and lower freq. in my experience.
I can not get the stock wire out fast enough. So it will be out tomorrow. |
Volleyguy,
If you'd bear with me, I would like to take issue with the term high res being applied to non resonance damped designs.
To my ears they are exactly the opposite. What they do is to add a sheen or glitter to all sounds which does not exist in reality, while this may sound Hi-Fi, it does not sound correct, which makes them low res IMO.
Best regards,
Frederik |
I agree a little "tizz" or noise can go along way in making a soundstage larger and more hi-fi dramatic. These phase issues that many products carry in their signal path make things exciting at first until the listener can audibly decode that they are wrong and are not a real part of the musical event.Tom |
Sorry Frederik (and Tom)
If I have caused confusion. I assume you mean this quote?
"The huge downside with high res caps is the resonance, yes can add fullness to the sound of some instruments but this is not done uniformly just at the freq of the resonance"
I should have said
"The huge downside with "high resonance" caps is the resonance can add fullness to the sound but this is not done uniformly but at the freq of resonance.
I totally agree with you both high "resonance" is "low resolution" by the addition to what it adds.
Sorry Frederik (and Tom) for any confusion in my wording.
I meant it exactly as you both have said. |
In my confusing post what I meant was for the people who like a "high resonating" cap to exaggerate sounds you get that but it is not done uniformly but at the frequency that the cap resonates at the expense of balance.
In doing each stage (of comparison) over a period of sometimes months it is always the lower resonating parts that interest me in the end. |
|
The test I have been very excited about was to use the Silver wire as speaker wire.
That means I have a few feet of copper in the amp. A vintage Autoformer in the speaker and the rest of the parts are Jensen Copper Paper tube and Duelund VSF in the amp all Duelund VSF and CAST in the speaker and Silver wire. (with Copper to the woofer)
My IC's are Linn.
I want to know if speaker wire is in order. |
First Impressions of Silver wire and this is from memory of CD I know well.
Bass player (Miles Davis) sounds much faster. |
I am still assessing the Duelund Silver wire as speaker wire.
For sure sounds different. |
Volleyguy,
Silver usually takes a little longer to break in than copper, so be patient with it for a while. By the way, how's your comparison between the Ampohm and Duelund VSF copper going? I switched back to the Duelunds in my preamp. Just more natural and complete for me. |
Sherod
I have been using the Silver wire that is going to go into my speaker as hook-up wire so have not tested Ampohm vs. Duelund as I have only one speaker.
There is a lot of speed in the Silver wire.
Initial impression are
Very Fast, clear, detailed, quiet, but at first somewhat forward as Silver does sound hotter more like more lit up room. Not harsh bright but not copper dark. So still trying to make sense of it?
The comparision wire is 12 guage stranded copper Linn speaker wire. So completely different in stranded vs. solid, copper vs. Silver, plastic vs. silk cotton.
It seems to be relaxing somewhat (as you have said break in) or it is me getting used to it. |
I am going to do some more listening but at this time do not think the Duelund Silver is where to spend the money.
Yes the Silver is better but I found replacing the speaker caps much more bang for the $$$. The speaker internal wire to be as well. Each cap in the amp was very noticable as well.
I might come back to speaker wire or look at Duelund flat copper when they come out with it.
Since this thread is also about bang for the buck it really only makes sense that the caps are more bang for the $$$. Caps wear out and Duelund and Jensen were wayyy bigger than what was there so you got a dynamic improvement as well.
The Duelund wire (Silver) is faster, more coherent, smoother. Still going to do more comparison but not a jaw dropping difference like tweeter caps. |
Stranded copper vs. Duelund Silver.
The Duelund wire sounds much quieter.
I have heard some think copper warmer than silver. Well it is slower so the bass more bloated. Does this give the sense of warmth?
The first thing I noticed with Silver was the speed. Bass much faster.
Stranded speaker wire is the same as stranded hook up wire favours one freq over another. (not sure why)
Spent a fair bit of time on this to see what to do but must move on soon. |
Volleyguy,
I think you are onto something :-) This is where I started with the silver wire from Duelund. It did just what you stated . The bottom was clean and fast which for me made it easier to to evaluate the mids and highs. |
I believe it is the commingled strands you object to, not the copper wire itself. Try copper litz wire from Cardas, with each strand individually insulated - much better than stranded standard copper, and much cheaper than silver. I use silver wire inside my electronics but I use copper litz in my speakers - 11.5 ga for woofers, 15.5 ga for mids, and 17.5 ga for tweeters. |
Irish
I agree with bottom end being very clear with tone as well. When listening to stranded copper all you think of is cloudy.
Ait
I think you are right on the stranded copper wire being the problem. For $$$ reasons I would like to hear the Duelund flat copper wire as speaker wire. I agree I do not know how much of the sound difference is Silver or stranded I suspect stranded. What is Duelund copper price compared to Litz?
Stranded wire favours a freq so you tend to listen at that freq but flat wire is solid from top to bottom. On classical music the difference is huge! You hear the orchestra and all the tones with stranded you get the instrument at the freq the stranded wire favours.
Ait
The next thing for sure I am going to do is Silver wire in the amp. I suspect (think) it will be very noticable on the phone stage and pre amp? (and at very little cost) |
Another thing I am wondering is how much quieter will the Duelund wire be in the amp? I think a fair bit over cheap stranded. |
