Undertow
My DCR guage puts the vintage at .3 to .4ohm (supposed to be .29)
The NC goes from .1 to .2 and NC says .15 I believe.
I would for sure NOT say NC on the woofers. A wax paper inductor of some sort. I am testing Duelund vs vintage which are both wax paper inductors. Both have DCR's around .3.
I will post again soon.
Face I did not buy a resistor because I had to try the Duelund first which has a very close DCR at 12 gauge. So the resistor might not have been needed.
I did prefer the vintage over NC even though I knew the vintage was cutting bass. The vintage (wax paper) has much less noise and harshness. So again I would have just kept that inductor over the NC.
I can say after a few minutes that the vintage and Duelund sound more related than the NC. |
This is going to take a little while to figure out.
The Duelund and the vintage are for sure not miles apart. This was one part I was unsure of doing as an inductor does not wear like a capacitor. So any new one would have to be technically better.
One thing I always wondered was does gauge matter? A steel laminate core inductor using 28 guage has the DCR of .3 a 12 guage air core is about the same so on a technical basis both are about the same resistance.
Hysteris is supposed to be awful. (even sounds like a disease) Yet on a thread I linked here to Al Klappenberger said in reality the measured distortion was very low? (from the vintage Klipsch laminate core)
I know a 28 guage wire running to your woofer sounds terrible. But is .3 DCR not .3 DCR? Is it not the resistance that matters not the guage?
Now if both are .3 DCR and neither has resonance. Should they not sound similiar?
Joe any words? |
As long as the laminate core is used below a certain frequency, the distortion may not be audible.
As for why they may sound different, different purities, dielectrics, etc... |
Face
There is for sure more bass out of the Duelund. To me this is like going from VSF to CAST it is disorientating. When I put in the CAST (tweeter) I was shocked at how much less white noise compared to VSF.
My expectation on the changing the inductor was for more bass. (either NC or Duelund) Not sure why I did not understand noise from inductor???
As far as what an inductor does technically letting through the low freq signal blocking the high freq the Duelund is by far the quietest. (vintage second)
I am now starting to understand inductors better. When they resonate they make a thinner sound. You get the woofer adding high freq noise. (I really believe that Clarity white paper) This takes away fullness of the sound. The Duelund gives the impression of more bass but is it because of just less white noise coming through the woofer? (or like you said Face maybe purer copper and 12 guage or the silk?)
Norah's voice is richer fuller sounding. I think from the noise reduction from the woofer. So more of the voice comes from the woofer. On the vintage her voice is frail. On the Duelund you can hear more easily of the double tracking (on some tracks) of her voice to make it sound even fuller.
On Norah's voice you notice a huge drop in SSSSS's on Duelund.
If Deulund VSF is SSSS's
Vintage is SSSSSSSSS's
NC even more
Can we assume CAST is SS's?
Looking forward to see what the VSF does in electronics. Reducing noise without making things sound dead is the trick. The Jensen Copper Tube type does well at reducing noise just wish it was a little more realistic in the midrange.
I am going to spend awhile vintage vs. Duelund to see if I got my money's worth. At first when I put the vintage in (to compare to Duelund) I started to wonder? Now I coming to understand and appreciate the difference. |
Frederik/Duelund
You guys must be getting confident? or you need to make two parts at once? That is great because I have heard enough of the vintage and am starting to tire of one speaker.
The second inductor is being sent today as well as the .047uf VSF cap.
I must say the Duelund WPIO inductor is a great part. After listening more this part makes a GREAT difference in voices. With the grealy reduced noise level the sound is rounder fuller and lush. Much more human sounding. Which does make sense as sound tilts to the low freq more because of less noise. Sometimes the voices do not even sound the way I remembered them? Took some getting used too. Norah's recording is much more enjoyable.
Looking very forward to when the second inductor gets here. I am going to wire up one speakers hook up wire with the Duelund (copper) wire right away. The only comparision will be against the crap stock wire. Not a comparison against a good part just how much does hook up wire matter. I am done buying any other parts. Too expensive I lose money every time.
I want to complete the Jensen Copper paper tube burn in as that is a good part. (about 100 hours on them in the other amp) |
Irish65
Why are you selling off never used Duelund parts? Why were they not used? I might be interested in the wire? |
Irish65
It would be nice for you to post your thoughts on your extensive experiments with parts. |
Volleyguy,
The Duelund's that were never used was because I made some changes to the crossover. I used less expensive parts to do this so when I ordered the Duelunds I thought I had the correct values. I am building this from scratch.
I settled on a 30uf Cast instead of the 20uf I am selling. The 15uf VSF cap I replaced it with two 6.8uf Cast in series. It is not a fair comparison with VSF to Cast but I tried the replacement with Clarity caps first and using two smaller caps in series provided more air and extension on top then one larger one.
Don't get me wrong it sounded very open and organic before I pushed the envelope for better sonics. As I said in my ad I am in pursuit of the most natural sounding speaker .
As with the various parts I have tried Mundorf, Clarity, North Creek and many others it was the Duelund's that have made a permanent home.
With the Duelund Cast in the crossover it amazes me how little volume I need because they lower the noise floor considerably. |
Correction.
I put two 6.8 paralleled not in series.
Thanks Face. |
Other Duelund inductor is here.
Nice to have a full Duelund speakers of VSF and CAST. I only have the Autoformer and tweeter resonance cap that are non Duelund.
In many ways I am glad this is done. So many hours (and $) to get an understanding of what goes on in speakers. I can never look at a set of speakers the same.
Also one Duelund .047 VSF is here. That is one expensive little capacitor.
Irish I am going to do the same as you and sell off the non used parts. Which are mostly gone.
Anyone looking for a
Mundorf Silver in Oil 2.2uf (never soldered)
2.5 mh North Creek (never soldered)
If not I am going to list on e-bay. |
I received the CAST 0.56uF caps for my preamp and installed them last night, then spent about 4 hours listening. The main difference between the CAST and the Mundorf Supremes I was using is in tonal balance. The CAST has more rounded and fuller midrange, low midrange and bass than the Mundorf. The treble is about the same so far.
I do feel that the Duelund sounds better due to the better tonal balance. Sax sounds more like sax, voices are especially nice.
I'm using the 200VAC CAST, not the 630V "electronics version". They are smaller and just fit into the preamp - the larger 630V would not have fit without extensive modification. An added benefit is that they are also less expensive (but still close to $600 per pair). Both Duelund and PCX assure me that these can easily handle at least 200V DC, even though they are marked as 100VDC on the side of the caps; my preamp runs at 175V DC on the plates. |
Ait
I should check to see what my amp runs at voltage wise as it is a big difference for the high voltage caps.
The CAST do take a couple of weeks to open up I think.
I am just completing the break in on the Jensen Copper Paper tube caps now that the speakers are all Duelund and all the same.
I am curious as to how the VSF and Jensen compare? |
I'm curious to hear your opinion of the Jensens, and I may want to move to them in the midrange of my Infinity speakers to build on the tonality of the CAST in the preamp. I am getting very addicted to the fuller midrange sound of the CAST as compared to the Mundorfs I had in there previously.
I'm up to ~15 hours on the CAST, and they seem to be getting better bit by bit. CAST in the speaker midranges would be out of the question, as they are 23uF caps - I'd be looking for a new wife if I bought a pair of 23uF copper CAST caps! |
Ait
I will let you know on the Jensen's. They are for sure pretty good. They do not have a plastic sound of poly. I will be comparing them myself against the Duelund VSF the cap that seems to not get much attention anymore and I am not sure why? To me the VSF and CAST sound for sure from the same family. Yes the CAST has much less noise but tonality is very good on both. I think the WPIO inductor is wayyyyy quieter than likely any other inductor barring of course CAST. (maybe the Jensen is good I do not know)
I can say I am starting to appreciate the Jensen Copper Paper tube caps more all the time. (vs vintage and now over 100+ hours) |
Ait,
IIRC, Jensen copper foil paper tube style caps are only available to 1uf, so you'll have to pick up either an aluminum, copper or silver VSF for your midrange. I went with an 6.8uf CAST on my tweeter and a 60uf aluminum VSF on the mid and have no regrets other than I wish I could afford an 110uf VSF for my woofer. :)
Mike |
I suspect the Jensen is only available up to 1uf maybe after that the Duelund VSF would be the way to go if you can use low volts? The Duelund is $139 and Jensen $105 at 1uf. (of course there is a voltage difference) I find the Duelund to be good value in mid to large size uf's. In small uf's the Duelund is realatively pricey. I assume this is because it likely takes no less time to make .047uf compared to 2uf?
The Jensen's are at around 120 hours now. Ait the Jensen's are very musical sounding cap. Norah's "Turn Me On" the vintage makes the drums to loud they crowd the singer which I am sure is not right. The Jensen is a fuller richer sound and much deeper in the bass. The foundation of the music is much better. The vintage can not capture the mood, missing much of the bottom end. I wonder if that is why I did not really like this CD before but really do now? I have heard some people say this CD is boring. I kind of thought so before as well but do not now. In a CD like this for sure the big beefy caps (like Jensen) make a BIG difference.
I really like the Jensen caps. I am really curious as to how they compare to Duelund? The Jensens are very fun to listen too. Only when one gets critical is the midrange "alive" sounding?
Time to fire up the solder gun and install the Duelund. |
Thank you very much to the people following this thread who looked me up in Denver. Was great to see you.
Best regards,
Frederik |
Well guys did you get to hear the speakers? Very curious what they sounded like? |
I have just finished running the Supratek preamp for 4 straight days to get 100 hours break-in on the 200VAC Cu CAST caps. That was also a nice check on my other modifications: the constant current source on the output tubes, the new wiring and tube sockets, the Solen PP caps in the power supply, the bypassing of the mute switch, whether the 200VAC Duelunds can take 175VDC over long periods of time, etc. It passed the torture test with flying colors - no problems whatsoever.
Now to the sound. I have to say I have never heard this preamp sound so balanced and natural, with excellent detail. The Mundorf Supremes I had been using previously sounded nice, but after hearing the Duelunds I realize that the Mundorfs over-emphasized the high frequencies at the expense of the lows and low mids. The CAST caps are wonderfully balanced, and I can hear all the music from low bass to high treble very clearly.
I highly recommend the use of Duelund CAST caps in a preamp application. Since the preamp gets the full audio signal, it is critical that it amplifies and passes the signal on to the amp with as much neutrality and clarity as possible - the Duelunds do that superbly. The preamp may actually be the best budget application for Duelunds, as coupling caps are usually small values and preamp voltages are often in the range where the 200VAC "speaker" CAST caps can be safely used. |
Ait
Great post. That was the regular Mundorf Supreme's not the Silver in Oil, correct? Hmmm I did not notice that in the Supreme's. The Silvers have a large tilt in my mind. Tonality did you notice a big difference? |
After reading Ait's post I got my butt in gear and installed the Duelund VSF in the amp.
Also installed other Jensen phono coupling cap. The vintage were just junk in this spot. Moved the other Jensen so one signal is all Jensen or Duelund except one cap. (need more money) |
Yes, those were the regular Supremes, which I considered a big improvement over the stock Auricaps. I didn't notice the high-frequency emphasis until after I heard the Duelunds in there; they had a much fuller sound, especially in the lower registers.
Tonality is where the CAST caps excel most, in my opinion. Everything just sounds more real and more natural with them in the preamp. The Mundorfs gave a tiny bit more shimmer to a cymbal, but had a small amount of HF glare that the Duelunds don't have; the Duelunds are thus easier to listen to for extended periods - the Mundorfs sometimes gave me ear fatigue after extended listening; so far I have not experienced that with the Duelunds. |
I had installed the Duelund VSF and was shocked at how much they sounded like the vintage Vishay's but better. There was a distinct change in the sound to being more "alive". The sound was very different in the midrange. The all Jensen signal became HiFi sounding, good but you knew it was not real.
The maddening part was the volume pot went on the Fisher. I never had old stuff before this thread started. I became fascinated by "alive" sound. In the 5 hours before the pot went I kept thinking Steen was CLEARLY voicing caps around the vintage sound with out a doubt.
I have another volume pot here so I hope to not be down to long, hopefully tomorrow. I was really enjoying those 5 hours but I am not enjoying vintage gear. It seems like there is always something wrong with this stuff!
I really have no love of vintage it was just the sound. I think I could get that sound with a modern amp and Jensen/Duelund caps.
I would love to install the caps in the working EL84 but there just is not room. |
Perhaps it is also worthwhile to consider, that not only did Steen start his audio life as a horn designer, but would weekly frequent live performances. This may explain his affinity for a "live" sound.
In all honesty, what else should a designer go for? |
So what is the status on Duelund's new CAST resistors? When will they be available for sale?
Thanks! |
|
I received my new Cast resistors and will report back when I put them in the crossover. |
Duelund I for sure can not argue on the goals of recreating a "live" sound.
I listened to the EL4 for several hours with still all vintage caps in amp and full Duelund crossover for the first time and really, really like it. What is it about tube rectified? Very musical.
I have installed another volume pot. (broken sping)
I will report back on the VSF but can already say in those first 5 hours (before) I was shocked (at what happened) at how the Jensen's took the signal in one direction away from the vintage to technical superiority but missing midrange realness. The Duelund's took the signal right back in the vintage direction to the point that I started to go back and forth to see if I could hear a difference. |
Here's a little trick I found for improving the sound of the Mundorf Supremes in an equalizer I'm using.
I love the tonal balance of the Duelunds in my preamp, and I wanted to see what would happen when I put the low-frequency equalizer that comes with my Infinity RSIIb speakers between the preamp and the amps. The equalizer came with the RSIIbs to boost the very low frequencies and help the transition from the two 10" woofers to the planar EMIM midranges. I had rebuilt the equalizer with premium parts including Mundorf Supreme coupling caps. When I put it back in line with the preamp (with Duelunds), I noticed that it added a little high-frequency glare and graininess to the sound that I hadn't noticed before, and removed some of the gorgeous tonality of the Duelunds. I have remedied harshness problems with tweeters in some other speakers by adding a .01uF Audiocap Theta tin foil and PP film bypass cap, so I tried it with the Supremes, and low and behold it really helped greatly! The tonality is not exactly equal to the preamp (with Duelunds) alone, but it is a lot closer, with a bit more treble extension than the Duelunds alone (I think I like it, actually).
I later noticed that Tony Gee had done this to Mundorf Supremes using Vishay MKP caps as the bypass, with similar results, so I figure that it's not my imagination. The Thetas are only $3-4 each at Parts Express, so it's a cheap tweak you may want to try if you want to improve the sound of Mundorf Supremes. |
If you're interested in why small value bypass caps work, check out this link. Check out the scope traces that clearly show how bypassing (and/or DC biasing - but that's another story) reduces hysteresis (straight line = good, anything else = bad). Even nasty tantalum and aluminum electrolytic caps can be made to look presentable. Notice also how the paper-in-oil caps improve; might the already wonderful Duelunds get even better with a bypass? Hysteresis and Bypass Caps |
Ait
Tony did say that the Vishay's did help all caps except the Duelund's if I remember right? But bypassing for sure seems to have people for and against it.
The Duelund CAST are a little tight they reduce high freq by nature, most of it noise. I really like a VSF in the circuit. I find them to be the most "alive" of any of the caps. I kind of have been trying to say that on this thread that yes the CAST are the king but the VSF's are something special as well.
In my tweeter circuit in series I have tried two CAST and two VSF and one of each. I found two VSF resonate too much. Two CAST extremely quiet and one CAST followed by a VSF just about right for me. If I had a choice I would say I like the sound 80% of the way to CAST. (from VSF)
Speaking of that very same subject my feeling on this is a low resonance cap early in the circuit say the phono or pre-amp and then the VSF at the end. The VSF brings "life" (some of that through resonance) to the sound that is uncanny. I would say both the CAST and Jensen Copper Tube types are both exremely low resonance caps and the VSF has more.
It is only now with the VSF in the circuit with the Jensen Copper Tube caps that I can say there is nothing better about the vintage caps. Sound is now "alive". The Jensens are a very good cap excellent dynamics very quiet no plastic tone but like Steen said you have no doubt that this sound comes from a stereo and not real people or instruments.
On Norah Jones Painters Song I could hear a full life sized accordion. I have heard the song many times but only now did it click in what the sound was? On a worn out Beatles White Album last song on side three Long, Long, Long was an organ. (heard that MANY times) This happens over and over with the Duelund parts. Random sounds can be identified for what they are.
Ait I am going to give that link a read. I do understand where you are coming from on the CAST though, liking the more high freq extension. Although I am not sure it is high freq extension. I tried the VSF vs. the CAST on music with violins and the CAST made the violins more dynamic and louder while at the same time the signal was quieter. The CAST are so quiet (noise wise) they are disorientating. Ait I would say give it some time for your brain to adjust as well.
I bet Steen either used a combintation of VSF and CAST or all VSF? Not sure if he had passed away before the CAST came out? |
I just finished listening for 4 hours or so, a large part of it Tom Waits. I really think I like the CAST in the preamp and Supreme/Audiocap Theta in the equalizer better than the CAST in the preamp alone. Tom's unmistakeable voice just has a little more life to it, maybe it is from the Mundorf/Audiocap or maybe from the active components in the equalizer, but the equalizer was a negative influence until I added the bypass caps to the Supremes.
Based on these results, I think I'll be adding Theta bypasses to the Supremes in my Infinity crossovers as well. |
Volleyguy,
Steen did sign of on the CAST. They were the only caps he thought to be devoid of what he termed "False detail". Meaning details not present on the recording but added by the system/components, especially in the high frequencies. |
Duelund
I can not argue with that (devoid of false detail) at all on the CAST. The caps are fantastic in design, no doubt. When I installed the CAST tweeter caps I put my ear to the tweeter astonished how pure the sound was. They made your own VSF caps sound noisy.
On the other side that noise made by most caps we have become accustomed too. It can even be thought of as "life" to the recording. So is Ait missing the "false detail"? I have to admit to this myself having a VSF after the CAST and liking it and knowing that the VSF adds false detail. (through resonance)
In fact you got me thinking again I am going to put the two CAST tweeter caps back in again. It was something I was considering anyway (buying two more CAST tweeter caps) as CAST cuts noise by a shocking amount.
Please do not take this as criticism as I do not find other caps even close to yours in making super natural sounds. |
Volleguy,
If I understand Ait correctly, it's a question if the equalizer should be used or not, more than a discussion regarding caps. So I really can't comment there.
I certainly, do not take your remarks as critical. |
Well, Duelund, I'd like to skip the equalizer, but the speakers were designed to use it, so I'm working to make the equalizer the best it can be. The output caps are 220uF aluminum electrolytic bypassed with 3.3uF metallized PP, bypassed with 0.01uF PP film and tin foil. They actually sound pretty good now that I put the .01uF bypass on there. |
I finally got the nerve(and funds) to buy a pair of Duelund VSF coppers for the outputs of my preamp. I've had a pair of the Claritycap MR caps in there for the last few months so I'm anxious to hear the differences. The ClaritycaP MR replaced some Hovlands. As I've previously stated, replacing aluminum caps on my tweeters with the Duelund VSF coppers was a revelation, so I'm hoping that I'll get similar improvements in the preamp. Stay tuned. |
Ait,
I completely understand, if it didn't come across in my post, I'm sorry. |
Duelund so I take that to mean Steen liked the CAST better or felt them technically superior? (which they are)
Been busy with work lately. I want to retest the CAST vs. VSF (tweeter caps in speakers) on amp with all the same caps. Trying to figure out where to go from here but am very happy even right here. |
Volleyguy,
Yes he did, like them better, that is. |
Attn: Duelund
Any chance of making the VSF coppers in a round-type shape for easier installation in electronics. I just installed a pair of the flat VSF coppers in my preamp and although the sound is fabulous, it was a nightmare shoe-horning these in to work. Unfortunately, I can't put the preamp top lid back on, but the sound is still worth it for me for the time being. (o: |
Been busy with work lately. I want to retest the CAST vs. VSF (tweeter caps in speakers) on amp with all the same caps. Trying to figure out where to go from here but am very happy even right here. There shouldn't be any comparison, there wasn't here at least. |
Sorry Face
What I meant by that is yes there was no comparison before from 2 VSF in series to 2 CAST in series but I really liked 1 CAST followed by 1 VSF. I thought it sounded at least 80% the way to CAST at much less cost. It seems strange how when in series the circuit will take on much of the characteristic of the stronger cap.
What I mean is are 2 CAST (series) worth the extra expense. I have to work from memory because I can not compare 1 CAST 1 VSF to 2 CAST's. My original thought is it was not and maybe I could spend more wisely elsewhere.
Just rechecking before I start to solder in Duelund wire. |
Running all low res caps on one channel. In the amp Jensen Copper Paper tube Duelund VSF (one) and CAST tweeter caps vs. higher resonance VSF tweeter caps in other speakers and vinage caps in the amp.
When you put them all together the difference is HUGE! Dynamics are not even close. MUCH more dynamic in low resonance channel.
Now to pull out that amp (put in same cap in both channel amp) and just isolate just the tweeter caps.
Duelund in my estimation if the cap resonates you get more perceived high freq sound at the loss of dynamics and bass? Also another question is there a point where the cap is phyically as large as needed? Diminishing return?
This exercise has been extremely worth it.
Duelund don't read this next part. (just kidding) I think one can get much of the Duelund natural sound (if cost is a factor) using the Jensen Copper Paper tubes before the Duelund in the same amp circuit. I think Jensen would be a much better choice then any poly cap. |
Volleyguy,
"I think Jensen would be a much better choice then any poly cap"
No argument. |
Actually, I'm now running the CAST in my preamp and a combination of Mundorf Supreme and Supreme Silver/oil in the following low frequency equalizer/buffer. I find that when I connect the preamp directly I get more of the CAST sound (natural, quiet, tonally accurate) with bass that is slightly overstated. When I put the EQ/buffer in line between the preamp and amp, the Mundorfs give me more spaciality and 3D soundstage together with the Duelund tonality, and reduce the bass just enough that it is no longer overpowering. I experimented a bit and found that the use of ~10uF of Supreme together with .33uF of silver/oil gives me the best combination of detail and smoothness in the EQ application.
So I'm finding that I like the Duelund/Mundorf combination best at this time. YMMV |
Ait
Your comment on the bass on CAST. I would not argue at all. My speakers were known to be bass shy. So the CAST were tailor made. I do not think they overstate the bass though. My feeling (like Steen said) is that all other caps resonate high freq.. CAST do not resonate at all that I can find. So no high freq is added so seems like more bass. I agree with you but you might want to try a VSF after the CAST. I have done this in the tweeters and really like it. The VSF have all the tonality and do resonate somewhat. I find the CAST more demanding on upstream components and source material. VSF is a very forgiving part. Technically not as good as CAST but works for me.
I expect to always use a combination. By the way the Jensen is along the same lines as the CAST. |
No way I can fit a VSF into the EQ/buffer amp. It is very small and the 10uF of Mundorfs only fit because I am using a cascade of 6.8uF, 3.3uF and 0.33uF (see picture in link). I need 10uF to reach a low frequency -3dB point of 2Hz with my amp. RSIIb LF EqualizerI have tried eliminating the EQ altogether, but it is needed for the RSIIb speakers for low bass extension and integration between the cone woofers and midrange panels. I have done extensive mods to the EQ, so it is now very transparent to all but the low frequencies it is meant to affect. To my taste, the CAST/Mundorf combo is very nice - the bit of added splash on top appeals to me. |
Volleyguy,
Got your comments about Cast and then VSF in series. How about the other way round - VSF and then Cast in series? Make any difference? Reason I ask is that I need two caps in series and the fist cap is triple the size of the second cap. |
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