Volleyguy,
After removing the silk from the Duelund wire you need to remove the oil and residue on the wire. I use a Dremel tool with a brass wire brush. I lightly touch the surface of the cable and remove slowly. I then use a buffing bit to smooth out and polish the cable.
I tin the wire with WBT solder and I am in business.
Hope this helps. |
Thanks Irish65
I believe my father actually has one of those tools.
I did check out the WBT solder and assume it is similiar to the Mundorf Silver I have. |
One speakers woofer wired with Duelund wire.
Sounds weird at first. (like out of phase) I will do some checking to make sure all is wired up correct. Maybe I am too tired?
Klipcsh wired the woofer with cheap lamp cord and cheap connection to the woofer through a screw?! Just a regular aluminum screw? |
I would imagine the the Duelund wire, like their capacitors, need some time to break-in and adjust. Assuming that you wired it correctly, give it some time with music playing through it. |
If the solder you tried to use has a high content of silver and no lead you made need to add some extra flux, and use a iron with a different temperture. The no lead solder clumps and beads up if you use the standard tools and techniques, Tom |
Thanks guys
I should not have made it sound negative.
I was shocked at how much quieter the sound was? It was almost like after the CAST cap went in I checked the tweeter to see if it was working.
It was more than just wire as I set the caps on cork and removing the crazy screw!?
What was shocking was I was thinking it was going to be a bass volume difference and it was midrange and high freq noise reduction like when the Duelund inductor went in that was extremely evident.
I can't wait to wire up the rest of the drivers.
Irish65 is there much difference in the Duelund line? Should one use Silver for the mids and highs or just the highs. Any advice?
I should have done this LONG ago as the wire was just sitting here.
|
Is there a photo somewhere of this Duelund hook-up wire? I can't seem to find it on the Duelund website. Parts Connexion is a distributor, but they only show pricing per foot and no photos. The .5( 18 gauge) seems to be their best seller. |
Volleyguy,
This will depend on your listening preference and your drivers. I use it throughout the crossover, internal speaker wiring, and speaker cables for all the drivers.
Sherod,
I can send you a photo of the wire if you email me. I have some extra lying around. |
Roger
No issue with using this un-shielded/sans vibration bearing dielectric wire internal to the constant bombardment of a speaker cabinet? Tom |
Irish65
Can you fill me in?
The differences etc. I am quite shocked to be honest.
Sherod the Duelund wire is solid copper 14.5 guage and feels almost wet. It is covered in cotton. The Silver is the best seller and of course costs more and is 18awg foil. I am very curious to what Irish has found out.
Has me thinking about this static on the signal. I was not expecting things to get much quieter with 6 feet or so of wire going to the woofer. Now of course (in my case) this might be caused by the silly screw or sitting the caps on cork? |
Tom,
I wouldn't use any wire in a vibrating speaker cabinet without addressing that issue. The wire, as you know, will act as a mechanical antenna.
The trick is dealing with this unwanted vibration without over-dampening the Duelund cable and lose it's natural harmonics and organic nature. |
If the Duelund speaker wire has no vibration/resonance control then what is the purpose of their Cast system for caps and inductors? There seems to be a disconnect and design dis continuity between their hook-up wire and what they hope is their product that is terminated at the end of the line. Tom |
Tom,
Using the Duelund wire in an external crossover would eliminate that. As far as using inside the speaker my feeling is Duelund left this to the end user to decide what was the best method.
If they did a Cast version what would be the cost?
The hook-up wire is more like the VS Fcaps and regular resistors. They provide no vibration/resonace control, yet still manage to sound very good. |
Irish
Does that mean the copper wire will sound better due to being solid? (no resonance)
I seem to have read somewhere else about the foil picking up noise? All the effort of CAST to dampen the wire (in the cap) and then nothing in the hook-up wire. This is inconsistent. |
Roger
I use some standard Duelund resistors in my power amps, units you are familar with. They did make for a nice upgrade from the previous Norh Creeks. I recently treated the Duelunds in the amp with Cascade also the transformers and the rest of the small parts with AVM. I did all these treatments at the same time. These are the only noise reduction compounds that actually increase fidelity without the resolution destruction of the so called damping methods.Tom |
Irish
It sounds like you are being evasive?
What is the sound difference?
It is the Silver foil that should resonate more? I do not get the analogy? CAST has less resonance like solid copper wire??? I can see the case of foil being a great wire but could vibrate, could it not? |
Volleyguy,
Not being evasive at all. This was your question.
"Irish65 is there much difference in the Duelund line? Should one use Silver for the mids and highs or just the highs. Any advice?"
And my answer was.
"This will depend on your listening preference and your drivers. I use it throughout the crossover, internal speaker wiring, and speaker cables for all the drivers".
I cannot answer your question regarding the copper Duelund wire as I never compared it with the Silver. I did try other copper wire and for my taste I preferred the 2.0 silver ribbon.
I can give you many reasons why I chose the 2.0 silver ribbon but that is my opinion. You have tried the Duelund products and know everytime you went up the line the sonics were better. That being the case spend a few hundred bucks and try it for yourself and know with certainty what you like best.
Regarding resonance and your concerns with the 2.0 cable there are high dollar speakers using this cable with no problems. |
Here is a link to the manufacturers who use Duelund products. Some use only the capacitors and resistors. Others use both the caps and resistors as well as the wire. I also am curious, for those who use the wire, particularly in internal cross-overs, how they route the wires and what they might use for dampening the wire from the drivers to the cross-overs.
http://www.duelundaudio.com/References.asp
|
Irish
I do not mean it negative on being evasive. You must have some feeling as to what you like/disliked over the other copper wire. Yes I really like Duelund products but also do like the VSF line. It is true though that CAST goes the extra mile on high pressure dampening and then you run a foil wire with no dampening. I mean a case for logic could be made for the solid copper on that basis alone. I am not saying it better is as I have not heard either Silver wire yet. |
Irish
You are right at this point what is a couple of hundred more? I am just going to have to find out which wire. Duelund has always been correct so far so likely are on silver.
So far it is a slam dunk no brainer on new wire. It was something I thought about in the future for an amp. The future is going to happen much sooner. |
Volleyguy,
I did not take your comment as negative. I didn't realize what you were asking. I decided upon the silver Duelund because it preserved the sonic character of my Duelund crossover. I spent numerous hours and money choosing the Duelunds over others so my main goal was to make sure I did not tilt the sound away from what the Duelunds provided.
You owning the Duelund products no doubt understand the sonic character I refer to. So that was my main reason.
If I were you I would get enough 2.0 wire to make one run to your drivers farthest away from the crossovers. This will allow you to sample the 2.0 wire with each driver to see if you like it. I would start with the bass and work your way up the chain. |
Irish great idea. 2.0 you say ouch! |
My previous post that could be taken as a critiscm of the lack of resonance control built into the Duelund speaker wire was intended to provoke the thought process of how the same material {flattened silver conductor] could be altered by materials added for the final products intended use.
An inductor using a state of the art foil wire will have its own predetermined intended environment {inside of a speaker cabinet]. Knowing this application the designer will select materials to control resonance and too preserve the fidelity and properties of the straight uncoiled conductor they started with.
The same conductor whose known musical magic will be affected differently outside the box uncurled will have to endure a different set of physical inneractions than those inside the box. The effects of static buildup on the conductor itself is of much importance in the Duelund design, or so I understand. If you were to add other materials to the supposed aide of vibration control then you may well alter or degrade certain musical attributes of the original product. The intent here is to build a set of ic's and speaker cables using all the same conductor thru out the process. Even these two devices using the same conductor will be influenced differently by the same application of resonance control materials.
The preservation of the music and the sonic signature of all the conductors involved should all be the same thruout a system. Duelund has this approach starting with their caps, inductors and resistors. Now to take it further with the silver conductor wire. That will probably reguire a whole other materials added list and different mind set. Tom |
Tom
I did not take it as criticism of Duelund. I took it as a very good question of how to control resonance in a foil wire. Assuming I fully understand what you were saying?
On the other side of this my 11yr and 9yr could easily hear the difference from just the woofer and tweeter being wired with Duelund. (plus one cap in the amp) I will often ask a non audiophile person who does not know (what has been done) if they can hear a difference just to make sure it is not me.
In this thread one of things I was hoping to discuss is what mattered for the $$$ and the $40 of Duelund wire made more difference than when I bi-amp my previous system with a second $5,000 (Can$) amp!
I would say the wire has been the biggest bang for the buck improvement. |
I do have one question for Duelund as well. Yes the wire sounds excellent being coated in in silk oil but does oil not dry out in time???
What happens then?
I am literally back to listening to one speaker the difference is so big now. I still have some small sections to replace as well! So will get even better.
I am for sure doing the entire chain in Duelund wire the amp everything. |
The oil is dried when you get the cable. It does not need to be wet, to perform its intended function. |
Thanks Duelund
Well most of the speaker is all Duelund wire. (couple little bits to replace)
Duelund is known for their natural sound. Why?
I think Duelund has a signature of lower resonance deeper fuller tones. At first their products might come across as darker. They seem to not exaggerate the highs. They change the sound stage. To me this is for the better. The high res parts bring forward instruments that give high freq. High res can also give the impression of false detail.
The solid copper wire is sharper yet smoother than the stranded wire. It does bring forward the sound stage somewhat.
A long time ago when I had one crossover of foil (vintage) and one of poly (Sonicaps) you could not listen to both speakers at the same time. It was like they were out of phase. It is like that with one speaker wired with Duelund one with cheap wire but not to the same extent.
It has had me thinking is this caused by the slowing of the signal from plastic or thinner wire or the stranded wire? (or all three)
The vintage wired speaker might sound Ok at one freq then a slow mess below. (say on Jazz) The acoustic bass player say is playing with intentions on the Duelund wired and lazy, sleepy on the vintage.
The Duelund wired speaker much better but could still be better. Jazz is tough and I am still running Linn K20? 12 guage stranded wire to the speakers.
The vintage speaker has more of droning sound? Slowness of the wire? |
I am starting to wonder if I have not gone to far.
The Duelund wire (Copper) was great for the woofer. I am now not so sure for the mid's and tweeter. I sounds quiet mellow and dark. For the first time I have turned up the treble. It is just hard to believe how much different wire can sound.
I can see now why Irish says I need to try for myself. I am curious to what Silver will sound like? Expectation may be copper to the woofer and Silver elsewhere?
I would like the highs a little hotter. |
Expectation may be copper to the woofer and Silver elsewhere? Sounds like a plan! |
I have researching wire. I never expected it to sound so different???
I mentioned earlier that the two speakers Duelund Solid Copper wired and stranded wire do not sound good together. It is the stranded wire that sounds faster. (tilt of the sound to upper freq) The Duelund thicker wire for the tweeter and mid range is quiet but tilts the sound down. The speaker sounds darker, maybe slower. The thick solid gauge seems to block or slow the highest freq?
Although the very low noise is welcome the speaker moves from realistic to more hi-fi sounding.
I have never heard stranded vs. solid. I thought it was going to be like just gauge change. (solid is much smoother)
It feels like you can hear the signal jump all over the stranded wire. The cheap thinner wire might sound faster but adds substantial distortion. You get a hard grainy sound. (nasally sound)
I have some Duelund Silver Foil coming.
Will the Silver be worth it? I am curious to hear if the skin affect is real?
I know the North Creek inductor while having good points was for sure noisier than Duelund's foil type. Frank said Duelund's original wire wound inductor was not so great either? Mapleshade Audio and so many others claim great things of foil and for sure silver foil. |
|
The Silver foil wire is in.
It is smaller width wise than I expected and thicker?
I am quite curious as to how this sounds. The Copper Duelund wire is the first Duelund product I have not be thrilled with. I think of it like the North Creek or Mundorf Silver in Oil. It has weaknesses to me.
Round wire sounds slow in the high freq. This gives the impression of not sounding real. I am starting to think Pierre (Maple Shades) might be right. I had wondered since the vintage amp was hooked up. A thin power cord compared to most today 28 guage inductor, lamp cord wiring, cheap speaker wire (first time I heard it) and yet it sounded realistic???
I prefer the cheap flawed lamp cord for the mid and high freq. to the Duelund Solid copper.
Maybe Paul Klipsch was right when he said anything more than lampcord was *ullshit! He would have been comparing to larger guage stranded wire. I always thought he was being just cheap. I wonder if this article was wrote by Frank? Tannoy Westminsters? One sure needs an open mind looking at paper thin wire.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/pfbackissues/0702/Rosenberg.alphacore.7n2.html
I have also read Silver has 7% less resistance but some doubt this can be heard. 7% is quite a bit to me? |
I have wired up the tweeter only with 28" (2) lengths of Silver Duelund wire.
If someone thinks all wire sounds that same that is crazy! You can hear in 5 seconds the difference. The signal is much hotter and more vivid. Is it better?
As a product much easier than the solid copper to work with. As far as what was mentioned earlier about resonance it is hard to imagine much of that as it is soft product.
I am not going to say much right away as I did change my mind on the Duelund copper.
This afternoon I will wire up the midrange. |
Midrange wired to Silver last night. It did not get hotter like the tweeter.
I know some will laugh at this but putting in 18 guage Duelund Silver brought the tonal balance back to around the same as the lamp cord. Which might not be as crazy as it sounds as lamp cord was 18 guage. (I think)
One thing for sure that I did not understand at the start of this is thicker guage is for sure slower. Thicker guage is not all upside. I thought replacing all of the vintage parts with thicker guage (more expensive) would be better. The manufacturer only used thin to save money. (maybe they did)
There is so much we do not understand about electricity.
As far as some saying that Silver having 7% less resistance that is not the reason for the sound difference. I have (coincidently) added around 7% to the length of the wires going to the tweeter and the sound is still different.
Silver is much more vivid. |
I have just completed re-wiring my Infinity RSIIb speakers with Cardas Copper Litz wire, 11.5 gauge on the woofers, 15.5 gauge on the mids, and 17.5 gauge on the tweeters. Litz is very interesting stuff as each strand of the dozens in the bundle is individually insulated. This structure results in a lower AC impedance as frequency rises (a higher Q value). The re-wiring was part of a larger project to build external crossovers for these speakers, using Mundorf caps and Northcreek and Solen heptalitz inductors.
Litz wire can be difficult to work with, as the insulation must be removed from each strand before tinning/soldering, but I have found that a Dremel tool with a stainless steel brush makes the job very easy.
The results of my project are stunning. Be advised that I also built complete external crossovers, so of course that will have had a very large effect on the sound, but the litz wire I used to wire up the crossovers to the speakers certainly also contributed. The sound is crystal clear and very detailed, and a big improvement over stock.
So there is another wiring option for you. |
Thanks Ait
I was hoping to just get the Duelund Copper thinking it would be a good choice since all my caps are Duelund copper, but did not work out that way?
I have never heard Litz wire and likely will not so can not comment.
I can say so far so good with the Duelund Silver. I still have a couple of short pieces of Duelund copper to replace with Silver. So will wait to comment but can say the Silver wire makes the cheap copper sound like there is flat spots in freq response. Strange effect? Cheap copper seems to favour certain freq? Something I was not aware the wire was doing? I like the Silver much better but am not sure of all the reasons of why? I knew why I did not like Duelund copper in the mids and highs. (really slowed the sound down)
I want to make sure it is real as this stuff is not cheap! |
I believe, that what you are hearing is more down to the shape of the wire and difference in dielectricum.
We intend to do a copper cable constructed in the same way as our silver wire, which should make comparisons more straight forward, as you will be experiencing more like for like, than currently. |
Duelund
I think you are right.
I am glad you are making a copper version of flat wire. (I would not call it foil as it is not that thin)
I have the feeling that is more important (shape) than the type of metal of the wire? Both copper and Silver have a signature?
I would like to replace my speaker wire (12 gauge Linn) stranded with some flat wire. (I think) At the Silver cost it is not happening.
So is it with wire the thinner and wider the better?
Do you get the best of both world's speed and low freq? |
Are you still doing this to the Klipschs? Wouldn't it have been better if performance was your true goal to address the transducers which are poor performing. The cost of the capacitors etc you place before these average at best transducers. Is kind of insane. For what you've spend you could run ALE;) Plus have you rebuilt the cabinets with better plys etc? still using the stock horn mids? If you have not addressed the poor cabinet transducers horns etc as well as crossover. Your just pissin in the wind. But if you enjoy it who am I to say your wrong. But I still will;) Much more to mod in k horn than the networks. And any thing I mentioned would make far greater performance increase than capacitor changes. |
JohnK
I may be crazy, not sure? Is Burt doppenburg still not using the Lascala design? for something? If the design was so bad it would long be forgotten. 60+ years of continuous production is likely for a reason?
I am still using 3/4" birch plywood?
The midrange is the Klipsch dual phase Alnico driver? (only produced for a short time) Known to be the best that at least they ever produced.
I have Alnico tweeters as well. (to be installed)
I can not say compared to your horns John but have found capacitors and wire for that matter to make a huge difference. I know Arthur Salvatore considers Khorns the best vintage speaker ever and amongst the best ever made and a fantastic bargin in the U.S.. I can say mine sound massively better than ANY Klipsch ever produced. (with the Deulund caps inductors and now Duelund Silver wire)
Best speakers ever? I do not know? Certainly not the best looking. Those vintage Tannoy's sure have a fan base? (Alnico magnet ones)
As far as improvements I have found only Duelund caps and inductors to be hands down better (than the vintage parts) and there silver wire. (still testing it) |
I really like the Duelund Silver wire.
Took me a while to figure out the why? I was expecting it to be better (as it should at many, many x the $) but it is better in a way I did not expect.
The Duelund Silver flat wire makes the cheap stranded wire speaker sound like 3 drivers. The cheap wire will favour what ever instrument that is at it's target range as a driver. Like 3 target zones.
I can not hear any of that with the Silver wire. I really notice this at low volumes (the lower the volume the easier it is to tell) as a seamless speaker with Silver and three chopped upped drivers with stranded copper. |
I would agree klipsch can be a good value. Still I would buy Altec over Klipsch. And I have found crossover parts do effect sound quality. Not comparing my horn designs to your k horns just feel that the constant change of crossover parts is a bit like a dog chashing his tail. Still feel if you upgraded tweeters to t900a t500amk2 you would hear a much larger improvement over caps changes. Bert doesnt use W bin. But pretty sure he offers plans. I moded a few K horns over the years. Best bet was replacing tweeters, rebuilding cabinets with doubled plys or 1in min. Upgrading networks. I replaced my woofers and ended up using JBL 2440 and dukane copper horn with t500a. When done I had no orignal klipsch parts. So took parts rebuilt a k horn sold them on audiogon. I do enjoy collecting vintage loudspeakers and gave up on moding them much. If working why mess with them you end up with something completely diferant and no longer collectable. But YMMV and if this is fun and of worth to you who am I to rain on your parade |
Johnk
It all started in confusion as to why the Klipsch sounded much more life like than my modern gear? It was a second system and I was selling the Klipsch when a guy brought by a vintage tube amp and I went Holy Smokes that sounds life like. If was the first time I had heard an all foil system.
I decided to keep them and replace the worn out foil caps. The funny thing was as soon a modern poly caps went in they sound like modern speakers and the qualities I liked were gone. A fake plastic sound. I thought horns were the reason they sounded the way they did? Then came better caps (Mundorf Supreme and Silver in Oil) better dynamics but still plastic sounding. Duelund was only used because they were the only parts I found to be clearly better than original. I agree with Steen Duelund when he said he could clearly hear that the Jensen caps were much more life like than ANY poly cap. This was when he had nothing to sell.
At this point it my curiousity that was really peaked. As much for my own understanding. You might be right about different drivers etc. but many of the faults you heard on the Khorns are the crossover parts and internal wiring. Horns will amplify (as you of course know) any resonance of the caps into a drone.
The alternative after hearing Duelund parts is to either buy new speakers with Duelund parts and for sure that will not be cheap! To me after what I heard it is an absolute must for Duelund in the crossover. So any choice of speaker will start with as few as possible parts or one will be broke. (or at least I will)
So it comes back to what is a better deal? One can take their pick of almost any speaker used and gut the crossover and I bet in every case it comes out as a fantastic deal.
I agree the Khorns are a great deal in N.A. 60 years of production and still making them keeps used prices down.
I don't know but a vintage tube amp point to point recapped with Jensen Copper Paper tube or Duelund, re wired likely with Duelund Silver or copper flat wire likely around $1500 in total. (unless of course more Duelund caps)
I will have around $3k (roughly I think maybe a little more) in parts for the speakers that I already owned.
I have wasted a LOT more money in Audio than I have now and have not even come close in sound by light years. The humiliation that the vintage tube amp gave my modern gear has made me more tight fisted with the $. |
I highly upgraded the k horn network. Used hi quality parts from mundorf alphacore nordost WBT. I would never start a loudspeaker design based on crossover. And I still feel your chasing your tail. Capacitors are not transducers no cap or crossover parts going to improve performance or frequncy responce of a transducer. What your doing is building passive eq into network by selecting crossover parts not on testing but on how they sound in your loudspeaker with your system and with your personal tastes. Nothing wrong with that but your results are for you only not a blanket statement like[One can take their pick of almost any speaker used and gut the crossover and I bet in every case it comes out as a fantastic deal].This is just not true. But I feel Im talking to the converted so I will leave you be. Happy listening. |
I have upgraded my crossover with Mundorf S&O caps on my Aogee Fullrange. My fullrange is my own deisgn combining the Apogee Fullrange woofer with a Centaur Major mid/tw ribbon in a special enclosure. I designed the passive crossover. the midrange/tweeter crossover is a 3-stage passive crossover that uses 40Uf, 20uF, and 20uf,respectively in the first, second, and third stage. It also has an extra stage to boost the highs using a 5Uf cap with 2 ohm resistor. There are additional resistors and inductors.
The woofer only use an inductor. All of my inductors are Alpha-Core. My previous caps were north Creek.
The caps have had about 150 hours so I suppose they still breaking in?
The improvement is clarify, focus, and transparency and it is worth $2k that 16 caps cost me that is not bad compared to the Duelunds that would have cost me a meager $64,000. |
$64000 for caps:) Crazy world for sure. |
Gallant_diva
You make a huge missing point in this discussion, Applications will many times dictate the answer not so much what we want or don't want. For sure in your needs this would make zero sense.
However for example I have speakers with only a 1.75 uF cap, and a 5.7 uF cap... Its like a second order, and yep I use a single 12 gauge Alpha core ribbon inductor. In the cap positions the Duelunds only cost me a few hundred. So it makes sense for simplicity, and size vs. value. And truth is yes they are far better than the Mundorf oils I previously used in this application. Then I went to an even better for the sound value of the Clarity MR caps(in my opinion).
This still does not "Defy" the law of "Point of diminishing returns"... In a case where the design is so complex and of large values for sure you would not be in a position to ever justify or gain the complete advantage of caps to do what you need to do ultimately, and so you made a very good choice of how to get there.
It all comes down to the prioritys of the system in the first place, I prefer super hi efficiency, very simple crossover designs, or NO crossover at all, obviously an apogee is quite the opposite with very low efficiency and complex crossovers. That does not mean that they won't sound as good or better, just that for me the point of diminishing returns would be reached and I would most likely stay away from that approach in the first place personally. But somebody will do it and enjoy it for sure. Great system you have! |
Undertow: I do not miss the point. In fact, I am believer in that myself. My crossover is in fact simple but requires larger caps. I was just creating humor at the pricing :)
Thanks for the kind words on my system. |
Gallant_diva
I think you mis-read my comments, I said "You make a huge missing point" in this equation, Not that you missed the point at all, I said quite the opposite in your favor :-) |
I should have said " You MADE a huge missing point" not Make a missing point.. Sorry just typing quick at lunch and not thinking about it. |
