Face I do think the CAST take longer to break in than VSF. I found them a little tight for awhile. (couple of weeks)
Undertow I read in another thread that you changed coupling caps in the phono stage to great affect. I am very eager to try this as I expect that a simple tube phono stage that the coupling caps will be of huge importance. I have been reading the Clarity cap (white paper) and they (as Dave had mentioned) as well (as Duelund) think resonance to be of huge importance. The cost is much less for Clarity but are not available in values I can test in electronics. .047uf is the largest in the amp. Do they make smaller? What about tonality though? The clarity cap may address resonance but tone?
I have to totally agree with what they say on 5-25khz resonance. I also agree with what they say on preference for resonance. At first when I would have friends listen to the the high resonance vintage foil caps vs. Duelund VSF some liked that resonance at first. Then after about 30 minutes they completely switched to low resonance Duleund. But I could imagine just as Clarity's white indicated some people may prefer the high resonance. The ones who did prefer high resonance (at first) were guys who like hard rock music and had an idea of how a rock concert sounded. (very poor)
Now Undertow with you not being over joyed with Duelund's strength, tone? Sorry I can not remember are you running SS? and is there poly caps in the amp? meaning is the Duelund in the crossover the first foil cap in the system? I can understand other caps being more dynamic quieter etc. but that Duelund tonality for me I would not want be without. I do agree with you if you have poly caps in the amp though as when I had the SS amp here I found Deulund better in tone but not worth the $. I thought about 20% tone improvement of what came from the all foil amp. What surprised me more was that Frederik did not disagree with this? Mighty big of him.
I do expect that what Clarity said about capacitors ALL resonating at 5-25khz is right as well with inductors. That is exactly where the NC inductor gives off noise. Every time I start with that speaker I am impressed with detail but end up switching back to the one with the vintage inductor. (wax paper)
Looking forward to Duelund's WPIO inductor. Should be here soon right guys? I hope/expect it to be quieter in the high freq as it is no doubt will resonate less than the vintage wax paper inductor.
I am waiting on Jimmy's Junkyard test. |
Any thoughts or experience using Mundorf MOX resistors versus Duelund Graphite in a crossover? They'd be used in the midrange and tweeter circuits in a pair of Alon Model V. |
MOX have a sheen and slight coloration compared to Duelund, but still less coloration than Mills IMO. For the HF circuit, I would use Duelund. |
Duelund resistors are definitely the best, the mundorfs are nice too, the mundorfs are a little more relaxed sounding than mills, but duelunds are pretty much like straight wire, very clear, very smooth and open sound, less sound stage compression. |
Duelund have your caps been used by any recording studios?
I really would like to buy recordings that were done on all tube gear and plastic free foil caps. It is one thing to have your system plastic free but that of course is only half the equation. I am finding out more all the time old tube foil cap recordings are much better. Now tube and high quality Duelund foil cap I bet would be fantastic!
Tempo Electric has changed their ratings based on what has been said here by many of us. I for one think Tony's ratings as a number would be good if ALL caps were adjusted downward. Duelund CAST moves down to 10/10 (instead of 14) and all others dropped as well with a VSF being 9 Mundorf Supreme say being 5 or 6 out of 10 and a Solen being like a 2 or 3. To me this might not be politically correct but very accurate. When I first read Tony's review I did not know why I would want more than 10/10? Could I even hear it? Then I was shocked to hear indeed a very big difference from #1 and #2. (both very good but a clear difference)
I am going to e-mail Tempo to stand firm. To me sites like Tempo and Tony's and Arthur's have helped Audio a great deal. The ad based magazines love everything. (I know they know where the money comes from) I was at Chapters the other day looking at Audio mags. They are a waste of time. I would not buy speakers now without knowing what the crossover parts were.
Would it not be great if Audio mags said stuff like
Company X has dropped product X and went to product Y to fatten the bottom line. etc.
The last 50 years of Audio would all be about lowering the cost of production. |
The partial poly power supply is done and will hear what it sounds like in the next few days.
Lots of stuff coming next while. Duelund inductor, Duelund and Jensen Paper Copper in tube caps and Duelund hook wire.
More ASC power supply caps and coupling caps going to be ordered. |
Hey Volleyguy! Congratulations on getting recognized in the Tempo Electric capacitor shoot-out page. I e-mailed Joseph there recommending he put the Claritycap MR caps in his upcoming shoot-outs. I'm considering getting a pair of Duelund VSF coppers to do a comparison with the Claritycaps in my preamp outputs. |
Hi Sherod
When I started this thread it was nothing to do with recognition. Private sites are my source now for info. I hope that when people read this thread they get an idea of what the parts mean on a realative basis. For me the idea that caps are "passive" part therefore not as important as active part will never be the same.
I wish there were more guys running all foil systems. I would love to what they thought Duelund start to end. I can not deny that a V-Cap in the electronics is not enticing at 1/8th the cost of Duelund CAST. The problem is so far the only part that has blown my socks off has been Duelund and now I am getting spoiled. This is where the Jensen copper tube comes in to lower cost but still stay plastic free. I am eagerly awaiting Jimmy's findings. |
Got back the EL84 with the partial new power supply.
The sound of this amp was horrible!
Ended the experiment within 15 minutes and will see what the problem is. It might be a poor quality tube. Work done was ASC power supply caps a Silcon rectifier some resistors changed and some caps put in.
I suspect and my hearing is getting very accurate on this that a poly cap was put in and not even a good one. If you want to kill the tone of a vintage amp just put in a poly cap. My tech guy said a couple of caps. I can not believe how far off the mark this amp is, not even close to original spec Fisher. I will be taking off the bottom plate to see. As fast as snapping your fingers you can tell something is not right with this amp. The first thing you notice is things sound fake. There is also a dead sound.
There has been much made of the movement back to tubes. I think (becoming more convinced every day) that the other side of that equation and just as important as tube sound is the foil cap sound.
Foil works best when it is complete no poly anywhere. I was shocked how changing one cap in speakers changed everything and it was Mundorf Supreme. (not a bad cap) |
Volleyguy, 10-20 hours break-in will at least bed in the solder and resistors, and probably reintegrate the sound. These quick takes at cold start are pointless. |
Sorry Dave
It is the hum that concerns we as well. I will not put in the needed break in time. So that amp is going to be taken back or shelved. My other Fisher EL84 sounds fabulous except for phono stage. (too noisy)
I talked to Parts Connexion on Friday and am getting a quote from Frederik on two .022uf VSF caps. (not normal value)
I have attached a link to very good balanced article on Audio history.
http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/tinyhistory2.html
"The same month, I went to the second Oregon Triode Society meeting, and one of the members brought a rusty old Dynaco Stereo 70 that first saw the light of day when Dwight D. Eisenhower was President. The sum total of his "tweaks" was to convert the EL34's to triode (cut and tape two wires), and replace two coupling caps. About 2 hours with a soldering iron. We're not talking aerospace engineering here.
The OTS guy turned it on, and we compared the Stereo 70 to everything in the dealer's showroom. It was plainly superior not only to any transistor amp in there, it wiped out the latest $3000 Audio Research all-tube confection that had received a glowing review in the latest Stereophile". |
I was wondering if there is a link to Steen Dueland comments on large caps being better. Did he mean larger values? or just larger size in general? |
Hotroady
Here is the quote from Steen and the link. I think he is clear on physical size and for sure I agree. It is also very easy to see why the idea is made fun of. ($$$ for big caps)
"An inductor coil MUST have low, very low resistance and capacitance — meaning that it by higher values will be heavy measured in kilograms of copper/silver and of the single layer band type.
Only if a resistor is in series with the inductor and no capacitor to ground between, this resistance can be built into the coil and a lot of copper/silver is spared.
The capacitors must act in the same manner with extremely low resistance meaning lots of conductive material. Again they will be larger and heavier, not much to do about that. Of course it goes for this part too, that a resistance can be built in as also inductance but then the free use of the part is heavily reduced.
From the great variety of types - stick to stack foils or variations on that theme if you can find them without plastics. The good old Micas works wonderfully well but they are far too expensive for greater values. Go for older types following the simple rule that bigger is better".
http://www.meta-gizmo.net/Tri/speak/STEEN.html |
DGarretson
In that article it talked about it not being very hard to take an amp to triode mode. Have you ever done that?
I find the part 1 even more interesting and did not know that SET had really never been heard by many until it's revivial with good source material. I never really thought about it? Another was the 300b was never released to the public?
http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/tinyhistory1.html |
Thanks Volley guy, it makes sense. Jon L had a pic somewhere of Ampohms, showing them much larger than Mundorfs of same values. Been looking at the copper foils, for my amp. I've also contemplated making my Fisher X-1000 triode. Only thing is; would want to add a switch for either mode. I should still get 25+ watts per channel in triode mode. |
You might have to scroll down, but there is a pic of Ampohm compared to Mundorf cap. http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f21/orgy-capacitors-cap-thread-284863/index11.html |
Hotroady
It is just my personal opinion but I think you are right to stick to copper foils for your amp of some kind. I read many stories of vintage amps going to poly of which Mundorf is and losing the tone. My own experience is you do best by bettering the same kind of part but of better quality. Meaning your amp was voiced on foil caps. Mundorf would be better than a lower grade poly if that was what was in an amp.
Now what is better about that famous amp you have? Different tubes, better caps?
I did just check out the Ampohms and it is quite interesting and for me I am not surprised they sound tonally better than Mundorf Silver in Oil. It is also interesting on the thread you posted I have read JonL thread before. The price sure is right. I just wonder about resonance? That is the downfall to foil caps keeping them from resonating. |
Hotroady
I see another guy just got some Duelund VSF's. It will be interesting to see what he thinks. For me I know they are expensive but I have a bunch of other parts (that were not cheap) and were not better in every way than the vintage parts. Duelund is. I have no nostagia when using them!
Duelund you really need to get these caps into the recording studio. I am serious on this. We will for sure enter a new and even better "Golden Age" of recording than from the early '50's to mid '60's.
Jensen's new copper paper tube is interesting (for lower cost operation than Duelund) and I have one coming. I expect them to be better rated than the old Jensen's.
I am eager to hear what Jimmy finds out. I bet it is and I could look very silly in this prediction.
1. Duelund CAST (he will say a little tight when first new but extremely low resonance and very natural)
2. A close race from the Teflon and Jensen (paper tube type) (bet he says Teflon has a signature)
4. Mundorf Silver Gold Oil
5. Old Jensen as tonally rich but too noisy in comparison to these other fine caps.
What do you guys think something like that? |
"Now what is better about that famous amp you have? Different tubes, better caps?" The Fisher? The huge output transformers, 55w per channel. Sounds best with Telefunkin 12AX7's, and GE EL34 fat bottles. |
On 07-27-09, Volleyguy wrote:
"Tempo Electric has changed their ratings based on what has been said here by many of us..."
I just want to de-lurk to belatedly clarify this point. We didn't actually change the ratings, themselves, but we did change the way the rating tiers were labeled.
Based on comments earlier in this thread, there was an implication that caps on Tier D were grossly inferior to the ones higher up, when they are really good enough for general use by the typical DIYer. Not everyone can spend the sort of money that Duelend or VCap Teflons, among others, cost, so the vast majority of users will probably find caps on this lower tier to be the most affordable for their projects.
To remove the possible stigma, we renamed the top three tiers AAA, AA, and A, respectably, since that's where the really outstanding performers ended up. We then changed the name of the fourth level from D to B. The differences among the first three tiers were often subtle and you really need to be at the outer fringes of perfectionist audio in both equipment and listening skills (I modestly include my partner, myself, and our listening panel in that category) to appreciate the improvements that these caps can provide. Generally speaking, you also need deeper pockets and a higher level of obsession than the typical DIYer may have, as well.
In addition, for the vast majority of listeners, the top tier caps may be financial overkill. If you can live with the trade-offs mentioned on Tier B (formerly Tier D), then it's possible to elevate mundane equipment to something far better without busting the bank.
A point which many DIYers may overlook, is that by carefully matching inexpensive caps that otherwise didn't fare so well when compared to the very best, it's still possible to achieve a sound that's surprisingly good. For example, in his personal phono stage, my audio partner, Dr. Arthur Loesch, paired the hard sounding Electrocube with the soft sounding Vitamin Q and achieved surprisingly good results. It's not the way I'd prefer to do it, but the sound was far better than the relatively low cost (or individual flaws) might suggest. In the production version of the same circuit, we had to spend 10 times as much to hear a 5% improvement (advancing from 95 to 100), but that's what perfectionist audio is all about.
As for the next round of comprehensive tests, Arthur and I are working on a set of aftermarket cross-overs for the Tannoy Monitor Gold drivers, so we will eventually revisit the speaker caps which were overlooked or unavailable earlier, including the Duelend CAST PIO series. We're also working on a couple of new electronic designs, where overlooked lower value brands will be compared with the best of the earlier rounds. Given the snail's pace at which things happen around here, this could easily be as long as a year from now (September, 2010).
For those who are curious, we agree that the Dueleund resistors are the best we've heard to date for use in loudspeaker x-overs (we rate Caddock MS and MV series as the next in line), but we're also interested in trying Intact Audio's (Dave Slagle's) latest type which are custom wound with copper magnet wire, based on the desired resistance at a given temperature.
http://www.intactaudio.com/res.html
Thanks! And now back to our regularly scheduled discussion thread...
//Joseph Levy |
Hi Joseph
I would like to say thanks very much for your site as it deals with a very important (to audio nuts) issue of the quality of passive parts.
I assume once someone is going to your site they understand that passive parts do matter and one can easily hear the difference.
This is were the tough part comes in. My two main sources of info were your site and Tony Gee's both excellent. I actually found your (wording and description) to more accurate (or to my ear IMO) in the the caps I heard. Your description was very good on Duelund VSF vs. Mundorf Supreme. Cost 6x as much but might be 2-3x better. I also agreed with you on the Silver in Oil as I thought it tilted the sound upward and left a signature on the sound which might be Ok if one was trying to do that? IMO I agree with your site, get the Supreme unless you are willing to spend the extra for Duelund. But if keeping the speakers Duelund well worth it. Good wording again and even as a Duelund fan I would not put them into a set of speakers I did not already really like and plan to keep.
Another tough part how does spending money on caps rate compared to all the other areas of ones system that could be improved and this will always be tough as you can not know what ones system is or how much they think the improvement is worth. As Dgarretson had mentioned long ago on the need for balance. I agree with him in principal except I believe the crossover is a area of MASSIVE weakness is most systems. (the after thought to most speaker companines)
When I had my Linn speakers I used $1k (here in Canada) worth of tri-wire (speaker wire) all hooked to a $2 tweeter capacitor and this IMO is a complete waste of money! Moving to $20 Mundorf Supreme tweeter cap would have been vastly better money spent. A bigger improvment for a fraction of the $. I suspect this pattern to be very wide spread. I would say 99.9% of people have NOT overspent on their crossover.
In Tony's site he rates 48 different caps. He gives 12 (was 13 before the downgrade to Mundorf Supreme)(or 25%) of the total a 10/10 or above. To me I found this confusing? I did not know why I would want better than a 10/10 cap? I thought they all must be awesome compared to what I had as they were all better than 10/10. Would I even hear the difference?
When I could hear the difference so easily from Duelund VSF to CAST I was shocked! My VSF was rated 12.5/10 wayyyy beyond perfect? I wish Tony would rate his top cap a 10/10 and downgrade all else from there. If Tony had a Duelund CAST at 10 a Mundorf Supreme at 6 and a Solen Fast Cap at 3 or so this would be very accurate to the reader. If I have 3's in my crossover (which I know signals failure grade) going to a Mundorf Supreme at 6 would be a significant step up which in my opinion it is and likely very good bang for the $ for almost anyone in any value of speaker.
As much as we (on this thread) are flattered that you changed the rating based on this thread I personally think your old ratings were better.
I admit to not ordering Tier D Jensen's based on your rating but this is not a bad thing thing. You likely have saved me money. Passive parts can be fantastic bang for the $ but it can get quite expensive to make sideways movements. I have come to the conclusion I am either have good hearing or am very fussy and your Tier A (maybe B) (old rating) is all I am looking at.
Joesph from your site and your accurate description's is why I ordered ASC power supply caps as I wanted to hear what does a power supply do and what is it's relative value compared to crossover parts? (not yet done with this one as there were other issues)
I say stick to your guns and keep the old ratings. Let the cookies crumble were they may. Maybe it was your rating that forced Jensen into a new cap? A person not really in to this will be Ok anyway with Tier D. The letter grade will not upset them. A person who does care will get a false sense with Mundorf Supreme being rated Tier AA when it is a good cap but Tier B sounds much more realistic.
More than you raising your ratings I really hope Tony lowers his ratings to only one cap being 10/10 after all there can only be one best anything setting the standard. |
Thanks for your comments!
I don't want to beat this topic to death, but the system used in labeling each level will always carry some sort of psychological baggage with it.
As an editor, I never cared for the original A, B, C, and so on, because of the association with the grading system used in many schools where grades C and below are considered failing (or close to failing). Though they are not the very best in an absolute sense, for the average DIYer, who may otherwise be clueless, the caps on the tiers formerly called C and D are far from failures. You'd be surprised (well, maybe not) at the number of folks who still think that all passive parts sound alike and for whom spending more than $2 on a capacitor is stretching the budget.
The idea was to give the results some sort of pecking order, to clearly highlight the very best that we heard, and to try and avoid stigmatizing some otherwise decent products. Many listeners in our audience simply don't share the level of obsession that you (Volleyguy) and I (we) have, so I wanted to cut the typical reader some slack and suggest a range of alternatives to "cost no object" parts without completely denigrating their value. Hence, the decision to relabel the tiers. Perhaps Greek letters are the answer.
Also, in our designs, we usually mix caps (as well as comparable resistors) from the top three levels in order to cancel out any sonic signature (and they all have one). An argument could be made, however, that Duelund components are the exception to this rule, since (so far) no one has been unable to detect any audible signature worth mentioning.
In the future, if (for example) we feel that the Duelund CAST PIO blows the VSF out of the water, we're more likely to drop the VSF down to AA, and so on, rather than create a AAAA tier. But who knows? Maybe a class by itself is where the CAST belongs. We have some very interesting candidates lined up for the next round, including the Audio Note Silvers. I'd love to have some samples of the Duelund and Jensen silvers for comparison, too.
BTW, I still haven't read more than 10% of this thread, but will peek in from time to time to get a sense of what new discoveries may surface. Apologies if I don't respond or comment for awhile, even months. There are just not enough hours in the day!
Happy Listening,
Joe |
Hi Joe
I will give you the long and short of the thread to keep you from reading so much.
Thread starts off I was selling a set of vintage Klipsch Lascala's (Alnico magnet foil cap vintage)
When selling a guy who was buying them showed up with a vintage Fisher tube amp (untouched) It did not sound all great, yet I was VERY intrigued. This was the basic system that is very common in the U.S. a set of Khorns and vintage tube amp. It sounded much more real than my S.S. gear. It sounded more real than the very expensive tube amps and speakers I have heard.
So a bought the tube amp and did a rebuild of the tired crossover of the Klipsch. (to stunning results I might add)
Started off with Sonicaps. Then Mundorf Supreme's and then Silver in Oil. Then I tried Duelund VSF and they were distinctly different. Very natural and real sounding. Then CAST, same sound but MUCH less noise. I go on to note their is MUCH more resonance in caps than I would have ever thought. (even from VSF to CAST it was hard to comprehend)
The thread goes on with me commenting on how the poly caps ALL had a distinctly plastic sound. I then find out Steen Duelund had said the same thing. (hence the reason for his wonderful caps)
I had noted that even one poly cap in the crossover and the sound changed to plastic. Also noted that I could not listen to one speaker that was foil caps and one that was poly at the same time. It was almost like the speaker's were out of phase.
Frederik (from Duelund) could not say for sure but thought that plastic caused a static build-up?
I could mix and match Duelund and vintage foil caps no problem but not put in a poly cap.
I feel that no plastic is the way to go. Steen Duelund also likes Mica caps. This is what is in the vintage for small values. So I decide to just recap the Fisher.
Others on here have posted that they really like the Clarity MR cap and some think it just as good or better in some ways to Duelund VSF.
I had noted that when mixing Duelund and other poly caps in the crossover you do not get the full Duelund (effect) of tonality. I also noted that same effect when using S.S. and Duelund, better tonality but not the same as when using all foil in the tube amp. (meaning there seems to be a foil synergy)
Others noted that Duelund CAST Silver was even better albeit at a very expensive price.
Then the thread goes on to try inductors. I have only tried North Creek 10 guage but have Duelund WPIO being made.
The North Creek is not a bad inductor more open sounding than the wax paper steel laminate vintage inductor but the North Creek has a hard sound and can ring? High freq hardness. I am sure much better than most inductors.
So Joe that will save you much time.
Now what are your feelings?
How do you feel on plastic? Is it evil? (as far as tone)
I noted that all poly caps are much quieter than vintage foil caps even if the poly caps have poor tone.
Do the Teflon caps have the same static build up?
Phono stage is poor in the Fisher's and maybe all vintage amps. I feel maybe because the foil coupling caps are poor (meaning far too noisy) as the vintage foil in the Klipsch were wayyyyyy too noisy.
So that is where it is. I am thrilled with the line stage and can not believe how real it sounds and am putting in coupling caps in the phono stage.
I would like to go with lower resonating foil caps (sticking to the no plastic theme) but this of course is very costly. |
There's quite a lot to address here, so I may just comment on one issue at a time.
In terms of materials, all caps contain two layers of foil, which can be silver, copper, tin, or aluminum. That's the material which is electrically charged. The insulating material, which separates the foil layers, can be paper (treated with wax, oil, or other substances), plastic (such as Teflon, polystyrene, polypropylene, mylar, or polyester), something more exotic (silk), or some combination of the others. More expensive caps use individual, interleaved (or inter-wound) layers of conductors and insulators. Those are the "film-and foils." The less expensive ones spray or coat the conductive material onto the insulator. Those are called "metalized."
So, because they perform totally opposite functions, foil vs. plastic really isn't the correct vocabulary. What we're looking at is a wide mix of material combinations and fabrication techniques, some of which sound better than others when used in perfectionist audio components.
It's only been in the past 30 years that the concept of capacitors having distinct sound characteristics has come about. Traditionally, the best insulators, like Teflon and polypropylene, have been considered the best sounding, but they are also the most difficult and expensive to wind. Exotic combos, like the Jupiter or Duelunds are very recent developments.
What sets the Duelunds apart is their completely different approach, both in materials and fabrication. For the curious, there are papers by both Steen Duelund and Harvey Rosenberg (who was an early champion of Mr. Duelund's research) which can be found online. They go into much more detail about the theory behind his approach than one can easily summarize.
The other big variable is high voltage vs. passive circuit applications. Our experiments showed that the same cap used in high voltage electronics often sound very different when used in a passive speaker crossover (and vise versa). Also, putting them together in different combinations in the same circuit can greatly alter the end result. Throw in all of the other parts that make up a circuit (tubes, transistors, resistors, inductors, transformers, copper or silver wire, solder, and so on) and there's no end to it.
Basically, we found that certain caps (as well as other components) consistently sounded better when used in certain positions, combinations, or passive vs. active circuits. The Duelund caps and resistors are certainly at the top of the list, but others worked well, too. The issue of resonance in a capacitor is also worth considering and this may be a characteristic of how tightly a cap is wound, as well as the type and thickness of the insulating material. This may be why the "new" VCap TFTF sounds better than the original -- the Teflon insulation is substantially thicker.
For a long time we thought that foil-type inductor coils, such as those made by Alpha-Core, were the best to use. However, Dave Slagle pointed out to us that, abstractly speaking, these were built like capacitors (layers of foil wrapped with concentric layers of plastic insulation) and that we should stick to wire-wound inductor coils, like the Solen air-core. I actually did a direct comparison of Duelund's original wire-wound, iron-core, toroidal inductor with the Alpha-Core and preferred the Alpha-Core. This just shows that the ultimate proof is in the listening. Along those lines, my partner, Dr. Loesch, has historically preferred oil caps, but in our tests none of them really sounded as good as the film-and-foils.
My point is that there's really no "evil" material and that the reasons why we prefer one material or fabrication technique over another cannot always be applied as a general rule. To give you a more specific answer, as of this writing, I can't say that plastic, per se, has a sound that we can personally distinguish as plastic. Of course, we've never tried the Duelund caps or resistors in our electronics (the high voltage Duelunds weren't on the market when we were voicing our amp and preamp), so that view may change when we do. |
Further thoughts:
While it's easy to become overly focused on one component or another, the audio system always needs to be considered as a unified whole. From the time the stylus enters the groove or the laser beam hits the pits, until the signal exits the speaker, there needs to be a philosophically balanced approach to the entire signal path. Until you've addressed the basics of every component in the audio stream in turn, it's often difficult to single out one factor or another in considering which upgrade will make the greatest sonic difference.
In other words, if you start with a flawed circuit design or mis-matched components, then even the best parts can never make up for this. You need to continually re-evaluate your overall strategy. BTW, I'm speaking abstractly here, so don't take this as being critical of your or anyone else's choices.
If you're starting from scratch, there are some premises which will set on the right track to begin with. For example, tubed phono tends to sound better than solid state, but there's a trade-off in the form of tube noise. In amplifiers, push-pull amps that use EL84 tubes and 5AR4/GZ34 rectifiers are all generally musical and easy to modify. Ditto with 2A3 or 300B SET amps. If your budget is limited, there are many $200-$500 sleepers out there, as well, including the Dynaco PAS-3, ST-35, plus any number of Fisher and Scott amps (look for the ones which use EL84's). For under 10% of the price, Tannoy Monitor series drivers from the 1960s-80s in custom cabinets can equal or better any $50K speaker on the market today.
Get the basics right and it's easy after that. Even without tweaks, you'll still have music. |
Thanks Joe
That was excellent!
It is those very Teflons that I am looking at. The cost is much less on low value for electronics. 1/5 VSF and 1/10th that of CAST. This of course is a factor as I am keeping the speakers but am not sure about the amp.
As far as for inductors would not foil resonate much more than wire if the insulation and structure could not hold the foil dead still?
Duelund did a wire wound Iron core? I did not know that? Right out of the play book of vintage?
Now as far as your partner prefering foil caps. This has been my arguement he may have prefered an oil cap but on an individual cap test you get not much of the oil benefit?
By this I mean he might like the oil caps (in a full circuit) yet if they were tested as a one part in a not all oil cap circuit you get the noise of foil in oil (which is higher) but not the tonal benefit. Where the oil caps tested in a all oil circuit?
"I can't say that plastic, per se, has a sound that we can personally distinguish as plastic".
Steen did feel that he could hear plastic in the cap? If I remember reading correctly.
"For example, tubed phono tends to sound better than solid state, but there's a trade-off in the form of tube noise".
I am glad to hear this at least is the norm. Hopefully a cap change will solve that for me?
I am glad to see that you have a wide time span and recognize some of the vintage bargains. One of the best things to happen to Audio is the internet. I often wonder if SET movement has not been aided by the internet. Only in a non commercial enviroment can one find out that vintage Tannoy's can compete with speakers costing 50k. |
Volleyguy wrote, "I had noted that even one poly cap in the crossover and the sound changed to plastic..."
Let me elaborate further. As mentioned above, to talk about "foil caps" vs. "poly caps" is to use a mixed metaphor. That is to say, all poly caps contain foil, so it's not an accurate way to differentiate them. Polypropylene and polystyrene, among other plastics, are dielectrics (insulators) which actually sound different from each other, while foil (which can be any number of metals) is a conductor. What you probably meant to say is that your argument is about the use of a paper dielectric vs. a plastic dielectric.
However, if you look at our survey, there are paper caps and plastic caps which both rate high and low. While the Duelund (paper) scores at the top, the Jupiter, also paper, does not. The same is true of the VCap TFTF (plastic), which scores at the top, and the CRC Teflon, which scores quite low. While the dielectric may be the same in each pairing, the sound is quite different. Note, however, that the Jupiter uses aluminum foil, which is also used in a few others that scored much lower, like the Jensen aluminum. Rather than single out a specific element for cheers or jeers, the difference is often in the way that element is used as a part of the whole.
What we were more concerned with, and which we were listening for, were issues like veiling (did it seem like a curtain, however slight, was separating us from the musicians), air (could we hear the space between the performers or envision the performance space, itself), detail (how clear were words, how closely could we follow individual instruments or voices), glare (did the extreme treble become shrill or congealed), tone (did violins sound like violins, pianos like pianos), and so on. That's the sort of vocabulary we used in our evaluations.
The question always was did the listening experience sound like live music or was something in the way. The concept of a plastic or paper sound was never mentioned and never considered as an issue.
|
In most cases, the correct way to differentiate would be to talk about pure metal foil vs. metalized foil for the conductive element. Meaning if the cap is made with a pure metal foil, such as copper or uses a metalized foil where a very thin layer of metal is damped upon a foil, which could be polypropylene, paper or otherwise.
And to talk about paper dielectricum vs. plastic dielectricum. Which as explained by Tempo is the insulating layer.
Then to say if a cap is wet or dry. A wet cap could be a paper in oil, a dry cap a normal metalized polypropylene.
And in the case of a wet cap to say if the impregnation happens under vacuum, or is simply "poured" into the cap.
This is of course very rough, an infinite numbers of papers could be written on the subject... :) |
My apologies, had not seen the very thorough explanation that Tempo did. |
I'm starting to read some of the recent posts and see that many of my comments have already been covered to one degree or another. For example, the link between Steen Duelund and Harvey Rosenberg, the Fisher EL84 amp, and so on. I was also going to comment that larger caps sound better, but that's been mentioned, too.
A few more random notes:
You're right about the cheap parts in most speaker x-overs. However, keep in mind that most x-overs have too many parts to begin with, so it's no wonder that cheaper parts are common. Commercial products are built to a price point and that's always been a problem for the audio perfectionist.
Regarding your EL84 amp, I'm not sure exactly what was done or who did it, but we spent a long time (years) mixing and matching different parts, including tubes, caps, and resistors, before hitting on the magic combination. Regardless of what we personally liked, to get the sound you love requires going through this type of round-robin on your own while listening in your own system. In order to understand how different parts affect the sound, I always caution people against making permanent changes without doing a personal comparison first.
As the amps and other components in our system became more refined, we went through these comparisons at least three times for every component. We typically made only one change at a time, which is why it took about eight years to feel that everything was fundamentally right. That was two years ago and we're still making improvements, mainly in the front end.
Also, running pentodes as triodes doesn't really change the sound that much, it mainly reduces the power. If you want a true triode sound, then it's best to use a true triode amp. When properly implemented, the EL84 is still the best of the pentodes and a good, musical performer. It will benefit from a tube rectifier, however, such as the 5AR4/GZ34. I recently bought an Olson Classic 40 amp (GZ34 + EL84's) for $200 and even with the crappy mods that the previous owner did, it still sounds musical.
|
Thanks again Joe
I will not even attempt to try triode then in the EL84.
I am glad you cleared that up on cap size mattering as well as I did take some ridicule on cap size not meaning anything as long as the value was right.
This makes me excited then on the coming Jensen Copper paper tube and Duelund VSF caps I have coming as they are 10x+ the original size and of a better metal (copper) as opposed to Aluminum or tin that the originals were. In my opinion there is really nothing good about a vintage capacitor except maybe it was of the right type. (tone wise)
As a complete amatuer at doing this stuff for my own enjoyment with not so much care about cost/benefit as commercial companies. This is clearly NOT something I would want to do as a job! As a audio perfectionist just trying to make something as good as possible with the cheapest parts possible and guess what the customer would hear/pay for would drive me nuts. A tough, tough job.
I understand why most commerical grade speakers like Steen said are all about the beauty of the box. It is the one area that new speakers can blow away the vintage speakers. Vintage speakers are available used at likely 10 cents on the dollar compared to new.
I am glad I am on the right path with doing the changes part by part. I am really done the speakers just waiting for the Duelund inductor then just wire up.
The amp I expect to be a mix of Jensen (paper tube) Duelund and maybe V-Cap Teflon. Then that will be done and to be honest I hope never to do this again in my life!
I have learned a lot, mostly parts quality really matters. People who do high end Audio work with all that listening and testing really earn their money.
|
Thank you for your participation Fredrick and Joseph.
Fredrick, I'm loving my CAST's more and more each day. |
Face,
Thank you, it really means a lot to us, that customer's are satisfied with our products. Much more so, than I think customers realise when they are kind enough to let us know. Makes my day every time!
Frederik |
So, is it necessary to use the 630V Cast in electronics if the voltage will only be ~150V or so. I'm thinking that in a preamp one might be able to use the less expensive and more compact 200V CAST. Is that off base? |
No, you should under normal circumstances be fine. I use regular CASTs in my own preamp, and have been doing so for years. |
Volleyguy wrote: "It is those very Teflons that I am looking at... I am keeping the [Duelunds in the] speakers but am not sure about the amp."
When we ran most of the tests, the VSF was the only Duelund cap available and its size made it impractical to audition in our electronics. At some future time, I'd like to acquire small values of the newer Duelunds and see how they sound in active circuits, too.
"As far as for inductors would not foil resonate much more than wire if the insulation and structure could not hold the foil dead still?"
One would think that, but the proof is in the listening. That's why I always say keep an open mind and forget about preconceptions. Duelund abandoned the wire-wound, iron-core inductors in favor of foil, which they presumably think sounds better. Note that their foil inductors are highly damped and not loosely wound, though that's the way capacitors are fabricated, too. I'm referring back to Dave Slagle's argument that foil inductors that are built like capacitors should not sound as good as air-core, wire-wound inductors.
"Where the oil caps tested in a all oil circuit?"
We never tried that, but it's another variation that someone could explore.
"Steen did feel that he could hear plastic in the cap?"
That may be, but it never crossed our minds or came up as a topic for discussion. In other words, we never detected a "plastic" sound, just specific differences between different caps.
"I often wonder if SET movement has not been aided by the internet."
In the 1970s and 80s, when the commercial American audio scene evolved into acoustic suspension speakers driven by high powered solid state amps (like the Dyna 400, the Ampzilla, or the Phase Linears) and high-powered pentode amps (conrad-johnson and Audio Research), the SET movement was thriving in Japan. The Internet certainly accelerated the trend, though small journals like Sound Practices were important, too.
"Only in a non commercial enviroment can one find out that vintage Tannoy's can compete with speakers costing 50k."
What excites me about the Tannoy x-over project is that there is only one small value cap (about 1.5uF) directly in the signal path. This will open up a much wider range of candidates to test in speakers, including some of the silver foils which we just could not afford to purchase in a 10uF value. This should allow us to compare the various Duelunds, Audio Notes, Jensens, VCaps, REL Caps, and others, in a way that we were unable to do before.
Joe
|
Joe, which model Tannoy's are you referring to that only uses a 1.5uf in series with the HF unit? Most of the vintage drivers use anywhere from a 4uf to 6.8uf in series, with 1-2 parallel caps in the HF circuit. Some of their newer models with the Tulip waveguide only use a 2.4uf-2.7uf in series(1st order), but I'm not familiar with all the recent models.
Thanks,
Mike |
It's a 15" 3859 dual-concentric which, in the mid-1980s, was originally sold in either the Panther or Cougar stage monitor cabinet. A variation was briefly (and unsuccessfully) marketed for home audio and my partner has come up with his own design, loosely based on the Monitor Gold x-overs.
The actual value in question can vary from 1.5uF to 2.2uF. It's run in parallel with a resistor and I believe that by varying the value of the resistor we can get the cap down to 1.5uF. While there is a resemblance in principle, it differs somewhat from the published Tannoy x-overs of that period.
Ultimately, we'll be applying what we learn to the Monitor Golds, as well.
Joe
|
I have often tried to describe what the Duelund caps do? They turn random sounds into instruments and clear sounds and real sounds at that.
The Duelund caps have made it quite easy to pick out how the music was recorded tubes or SS as well.
The other day listening to Miles Davis the drums don't just sound like drums but like a real SET of drums (at life size) over there in the corner. (I mean freaky real) My daughter has said "I am afraid to go in the basement Dad as I expect to walk around the corner and see people there!"
When listening to the White album tonight the song "I Will" I could not figure out what this one instrument was? So I had to turn the computer back on. I was frustrated what the heck was that? I find out it was Paul dum dumming the bass line.
http://www.upv.es/~ecabrera/white.html
One thing as a former Linnie is that Linn people believe Linn gear gives you a feel of a band playing together. I have to admit with the Duelund/tube amp the music will sound very accurate and real as instruments in space but not sense of everyone in the room together? I am not sure why I ever thought it was a band playing together as of course the music unless live is often laid down in tracks. Paul plays every instument on some of those songs so how could it sound like a band playing together? So if Linn makes it sound like a band playing together than that is just false. So all this clearness has changed my impression of songs. Where I once thought it was John singing and Paul on back-up (this being in my mind) you can clearly hear it is John on lead and John on back up.
This does not take away from the enjoyment you just are more aware that it was done in a studio. |
VSF = lifelike tonality
CAST = lifelike tonality + huge soundstage and precise imaging
The difference was MUCH more subtle than expected. |
I agree totally Face. Like I had said in post when I first got the CAST there was so much difference I was almost confused.
After hearing the CAST (2 caps) vs. VSF (2 caps) in the tweeter caps in one speaker vs. the other I would consider upgrading to all CAST. (right now I am CAST to VSF) (which seems to work best)
That high pressure they use on CAST is surprising how much difference.
I just do not know is that same kind of difference apply to electronics with caps? That is why I have Jensen and VSF coming. If I get the amp to exactly what I expect to happen with caps I am looking at CAST for the critical locations and VSF and Jensen's (Copper tube) in the less critical.
Frederik can you give a hint where that would be? I expect the cap at the phono section? and pre amp? |
I wonder what is taking Jimmy so long? Is it the Teflon caps? He must be wayyyy over 200 hours by now.
That is the only thing I can thing of as the CAST vs. VSF was instant noticable change of the CAST. They do need time as they are somewhat tight at first. I also wonder how much of that is ones ear getting used to super low resonance? I went up to my tweeter several times in shock. You could hear the highs but none of the high freq noise and this was compared to VSF!
Joe when you do test the CAST I think you will be shocked. What I thought (before CAST) was electronic noise was tweeter cap noise. |
Just a minor revision. Taking a look at the schematic for the proposed Tannoy x-over, there's also a 10uF value at the beginning of the signal path, along with a 5.6uF and 20uF across the HF and LF sections, respectively.
The plan is the use the best we have on hand to start with, which includes the 10uF VSF, and continue from there. The small 1.5uF (or so) value will give us a chance to try a wider range of products without breaking the bank, after which we'll have the option of upgrading the larger values with the top performers to further judge the overall effect.
Joe
|
Well guys I think we guessed Jimmy's findings quite accurate.
Duelund excels at all qualities except price! I was glad to see the Jensen Copper paper tube types do so well that I can use them in less critical locations. I just simply cannot afford to put $3k+ in caps into a $500 amp!
It was kind of what I thought with the Teflons which I am sure are great in many systems but I do not think would work for me. Horns need warmth. Now maybe one pair of Teflons, not sure? (for their detail) |
Well, I just took the plunge and ordered two Duelund 0.56uF 200V Cast Copper Foil caps for my Supratek Chenin tube preamp.
I have extensively modded this preamp, moving from 6SN7 output tubes to 2C22, going from resistor/cap bias to diode bias with Cree SiC schottky diodes, and using a constant current source at 15mA on the plates of the 2C22. I've been running Mundorf Supreme caps on the output circuit and I think the sound is close to perfection as is, but I couldn't resist the urge to find out if there was more to be had.
Let the waiting begin... |
By the way, there are no coupling caps in my source (Zero One Mercury CD/HD player) or amps (Gilmore Raptor monoblocks), so the ones in my preamp are the sum total of coupling caps in the system. I'm hoping for a big impact from the Duelunds because of this fact. |
Today I find out if I was right on vintage amps. I have the Jensen Copper paper tube caps and am going to start putting them in.
I expect a quieter (less resonance) and more dynamics compared to tiny vintage. We'll see? |
I installed one of the Jensen's copper tube types into the phono stage.
The first minute it sounds terrible! For sure the vintage sounds MUCH better compared to the out of the box Jensen.
Once again I am very shocked at how different one cap sounds from another? This time in electronics. I know it is break in time but I am very surprised the Jensen did not sound better than the vintage right out of the box?
I am very glad to do this one cap at a time. Treble is cut right back. The Jensen is a tight, very tight sound right out of the box. Similiar to CAST? Just kidding Frederik as I know this is sensitive issue this confusing Jensen and Duelund.
This is going to be a very interesting break in I think.
I think the Jensen is going to cure the poor dynamics of the vintage phono stage as it IS already more dynamic. |
Hi Volleyguy,
Nice thread here. Wait until the 200+ hours and you will soon find out the Jensen is not bad at all. Well, it's not on the level with Duelund, but at its price, I can't go no where.
Thanks. |
Thanks Xneakers
I was not to concerned with the first few hours but it is really shocking how bad caps can sound at first. I am hoping the Jensen works out well for me as well until I can afford to replace with Duelund's.
I wish Jimmy had put the VSF in his test.
So far the Jensen is very tight and not very natural sounding (no air or top end) but does make the vintage phono stage sound very modern. So all in all I am excited as I think a vintage weaknness is that phono stage cap.
I think I understand why the vintage pre amps like Fisher CX400II's go for such big $. They have MUCH larger caps than say the int.. So this was known many years ago. Now will a int. amp sound great with much bigger caps? I hope so. |
