So we're all tired of hearing about nothing but Covid-19 (or, as I term it, the C-Plague). What can we do, as audiophiles, to help with all this. I was amazed, and delighted, when I went to the Cardas website to see that they are doing their part. Go to their website and you'll see their director, Angela Cardas, wearing a mask. If you click on the Cardas Nautilus logo in the upper left corner, you'll see pictures of people there in the factory making masks with sewing machines. I called the company to congratulate them, and spoke with a woman named Darla, who said it was their way, during this economic slump, to keep their employees working and also their way of trying to "do our part." I'm not writing all this to advertise Cardas products. They are a very good company, but trust your ears, not anything I write, when it comes to buying their products. They do get credit, however, for helping me come to a realization that pushed me in the right direction. I called a woman I am friends with, who is 85 years old and is a good seamstress, to suggest she start making masks. She already was--and is. By phone she has organized several other women to do the same, and right now they are needing more material and elastic. I managed to gather about 50 pounds of material and am starting to gather elastic while also getting more material. But I don't sew. I can't help out with that. Any ideas as to what we--all of us who are good with our ears and focused with our budgets--can do to help out in other ways?
I realize this is an odd topic to bring to an audio forum, but it was a very socially responsible audio company that got me to thinking about it, and frankly I believe I should be socially responsible enough to do what I can to get other people to thinking about it. While also being open to other people's ideas about ways someone like me who is "just an audiophile" can help.
Thank you, in advance, for any and all ideas on this.
I hope you all go out and enjoy yourself, just don’t come crying around here if you get sick
If I get sick, I get sick. It's all about common sense, which is definitely not so common anymore. You stay in your house and wait until nothing bad ever happens again. At that time, you can ride off into the sunset on your unicorn.
As for me, I will continue to live my life and do the same things I always do during flu season. I wash my hands, try not to touch anything I don't need to and don't allow anyone to cough on me. But damn to hell the government telling people they must shelter in place or risk being arrested. Quarantine the sick and the "at risk" demographic (if they want to) and let everyone else go about their business. What could be more simple?
@n80: I’ve already expressed that delayed care is an issue. A significant issue. I am not downplaying it. I don’t pretend to have the answers. I will not advocate any particular plan with steadfast conviction because I don’t have the answers. I’ll give the same response, again, about the empty hospitals. It’s a real and serious problem. People will die from the virus and people will die from the response to the virus in various numbers with any plan that is implemented. If you claim, again, that I don’t think that the negative effects of having empty hospitals is another issue, I’ll know we aren’t having a good faith discussion. I don’t know what the proper balance is. I am not downplaying it. What I can tell you from first hand experience, and plenty of second hand experience(my fiancee is a pulm/crit physician at a another larger hospital and between the two of us we have a reasonably large network of physicians to collect regional information) is that by the time you see the tip of the iceberg, assuming you haven’t been taking aggressive local measures, in many cases you are going to find out you’ve already lost. You’re going to have a really bad few months even if you lock everything down completely at that point.
It seemed pretty obvious from the beginning that any adequate response in regards to the virus would later be met with significant push back as people made claims like: "See! The numbers aren’t even that bad!" Right, they aren’t that bad in the setting of dramatic measures taken to stop the further spread of the virus. That is not the same as saying they never would have been that bad. I suppose this is my biggest point. Don’t use the fact that things didn’t explode in the setting of drastic measures being taken to downplay the seriousness of the situation.
Btw, the response to the pandemic is not central and general. There are guidelines and some central programs etc, but the states are the ones imposing the shelter in place orders etc. Did I miss something? Seriously, if I did let me know. Maybe you mean central in terms of California state making a "central" decision? That’s not really the proper terminology in this context, but ok. Maybe that means California is too big? It is bigger and more heavily population that most countries. Sure. I don’t know. I’m not very knowledgeable about California. For the record, I agree we need to worry about erosion of liberty. We always do. It’s a very real and obvious concern. That concern needs to be discussed in the setting of proper information, though. This is addressed more generally(as in not really at you N80, others are making the next claim I’m about to address), but this is not the flu. This is significantly more deadly and causes significantly more morbidity. True, we don’t know EXACTLY how deadly yet...but I’ve never seen a relatively healthy sub 40 year old(zero or one well controlled comorbidity) die of hypoxic respiratory failure. I’ve seen more than a few already in that group die from Covid-19 pnuemonia. I’ve seen a lot more of them stuck in the hospital for weeks or even more than a month on varying levels of oxygen support. Many go home on home oxygen(at least they did, it takes like a week to get it now because supply is low). Never seen that with the flu. It’s not the flu. I’ve never seen refrigerator trucks behind the hospital because the morgue is full during flu season. At least one hospital I know of in the area needed a second truck because the first was full.
I’m done though. I can’t waste any more of my day off on this. Have fun all. Enjoy your music. Stay safe(whatever that means to you). For those of you hurting with businesses. I wish you the best of luck. I’m sorry you have to go through this. I hope we can get everyone back to work as soon as possible in an intelligent way. My vote would be for reliable antibody testing(we just need to work on that reliable part first), but I’m open to whatever works.
you attacked me for no reason other than to get into the conversation because I don’t agree with your you and your buddy’s. Like I said I will tell everyone I am friends with in Audio how you reacted and let them be the judge. As for myself, it’s a losing battle arguing with your type, ie, mc, ozzy62, and the rest of you very arrogant uninformed people. life is too short and you guys have pushed my blood pressure higher than it has ever been. Happy? I hope so.
Then instead of whinging about this decades later you should have taken advantage of the avenues available to you to force them to keep their promise. Actually we are a real audio store and I know I shouldnt post such things because this can cost us business but sometimes something must be said. I would hope that our brands and our level of competence would be the deciding factors.
you either don’t read well or comprehend well. I did MY job and the directors job for a year and did not receive any extra compensation like I was promised by administration. I was supposed to get an extra 20K that year and got nothing. They are way ahead of the game as it was the last 2 weeks before retirement. No one owes me anything and I don’t remember asking you for permission. I hope you aren’t a legit audio store because I certainly would never buy from you and I would advise my many friends from doing so as well.
@ozzy62, you are right but I re-read my post and thought it better to be more civilized than you could ever hope to be, so I re-wrote it NANCY. You, MC and quite a few others are quite arrogant. I hope you all go out and enjoy yourself, just don’t come crying around here if you get sick. I like to err on the side of caution and hope to live as long as my parents did, to my mid 90’s.
Well GK I agree. It’s clear now that leaving it up to individuals alone to do the right thing does not work in cases like a pandemic where what each does or does not do has effect on others.
Science and facts has to determine what is or is not done. Individual opinion won’t cut it.
Also gotta note that Bob Dylan does not say that at the end of any of his records I have heard but if that is your opinion then that’s a different story. 😌
... One thing is consistent between the
1918 flu in this one .... people's behaviors, good and bad. That does
not mean all lock down measures make sense. Some of them really do not,
protest those, but overall, this is not just some seasonal flu ...
I think this is a pretty good summary, and I'd only underscore that Covid19 is not the flu. Morgues have overflowed and bodies have literally piled up.
Also I think that the solution is to err on the side of caution. Choose the solution with which the fewest people die. Are some actually suggesting that government imposed restrictions are the first step in some greater scheme to control the people?
This a lose/lose scenario. Health versus economy. Individuals are affected differently and will have different views on what’s best for themselves and others.
We are where we are currently ie better off than otherwise because of the preventive measures taken.
You can’t look at the results of the preventive measures then say those measures were not needed.
We should all now understand why blind libertarianism does not work in cases like pandemics where what everyone does affects everyone.
As things open back up we will see how things go. Everyone knows more now than they did when things started and that is the big difference that hopefully moves us forward and not backwards from here.
c4659 I’ve always been a risk taker. Do whatever you are comfortable doing. As for me, I think I will go out later for a cold draft beer at one of my favorite microbreweries. After all, this is Wisconsin. Cheers!
>>>>Uh, but it’s you who are putting your drinking buddies at risk? They will really be cold ones then. What is it about WI and MN that’s makes them so slow on the uptake? Who knows? Cheers!
I cant believe you would state on a public forum that you received pay for the last weeks of employment and did nothing. Welcome to the world of most of us in the private sector. No doubt I owe you something, can I pay for your sister's test?
I've always been a risk taker. Do whatever you are comfortable doing. As for me, I think I will go out later for a cold draft beer at one of my favorite microbreweries. After all, this is Wisconsin. Cheers!
Calculate your chances of dying from COVID-19 now.
Scientists in the U.K. have created an online calculator that predicts a person’s risk of dying of during the COVID-19 pandemic.
The calculator, named OurRisk.CoV, shows how a person’s age, sex, and underlying health conditions—such as diabetes, severe obesity, as well as heart, kidney and chronic obstructive pulmonary diseases—affect their chances of dying in different COVID-19 scenarios over a one year period in England.
To the ones who think it is their right to go back to normal, good for you. If I don’t see you posting here for a while, I will assume you died from the virus but I will not shed one tear for you. We were all warned, if you want to play Russian Roulette with your health, go right ahead. Just remember if you get sick, you will drag others down with you.
I am as antsy as the next person to go out and do things, but I am also sensible and will not go back to normal regardless of what the others say. Only when I feel comfortable will I carry on. I didn’t work my entire life to just retire and die unnecessarily. 80,000+ dead in the past 3 months means this virus is very real. It is probably much higher now that some of the red states aren’t keeping track of the deaths any longer. If the present government says 80,000 it is probably more like over 100,000. Just think if a family member of yours was included in this death total, you would all probably be singing a different tune.
The BS being said that anyone who wants a test can get one is total BS. Maybe for the top 1% which most of us here aren’t in that category. My 71 year old sister has developed shortness of breath and a dry cough but because she doesn’t have a fever yet can’t get tested. For us other 99%, you have to be practically on deaths door before you can get tested and the tests are not FREE.
@ozzy62, your post has been reported. I will not take any of your BS
This is not a political statement, but an attempt to look factually on what has happened and what is happening.
I believe the only thing that would have reduced the total number of cases in the U.S. would have been to restrict foreign travel extensively much earlier. I don't remember a whole lot of support for that from any side. In conjunction with that, 2 other things would have had to happen, inter-state travel would have had to be greatly reduced (good luck doing that constitutionally), and the cities and states would have had to shut down much earlier. Remember the mayor of NY was promoting people to get out and enjoy life and go to restaurants in almost mid-March, and Biden was holding large rallies. NY state was not shut down till March 22. By then it was too late, too many infected in NY, and those people had spread it around the country and vice-versa.
I am not saying the federal response post mid-March response has been coherent, but, I don't think the outcome, overall, would have been much different with a different government as there was no willpower early enough on either side to do what was needed.
Singapore is a great example of how hard this is to control once it is out in the wild. Single city-state, significant contract tracing, and isolation measures, but like Sweden, never shut down. It worked great for them, initially, until everyone returned from abroad and the system could no longer keep up. High population density now works against them, and they have now 26,000 cases, though they claim very few deaths, which seems suspect, though they really did not start till mid-late April.
Sweden and the Netherlands are similar. Denmark and Norway are obviously much better better. Differences in reporting are not going to compensate for the significant differences.
The US, though, is currently much better than many European countries, but the US is much earlier into it's recovery, and has been pointed out, the US is geographically much more like all of Europe, than just any one country. With Spanish Flu, the US never had a 3rd wave like many countries did ... because their 2nd wave never ended so a 3rd could begin. The 2nd wave was 5-6 months long as it moved through the country.
The difference in mortality rates between Sweden and adjoining countries can be explained by “irregularities“ or differences in reporting. Criteria and protocols vary widely among countries and in the US among states. Most countries in the top ten have mortality rates comparable to Sweden. Case closed. At least Sweden seems to be transparent in acknowledging their problem.
The 62,000 is an estimate. That is NOT the number listed as Flu on the death certificate. The CDC does look at peumonia deaths above the typical average and does attribute them to flu when making their estimates for deaths. The country is in lock down and that 62,000 number was blown through in not much more than a month. Not being properly informed is not your friend.
One thing is consistent between the 1918 flu in this one .... people's behaviors, good and bad. That does not mean all lock down measures make sense. Some of them really do not, protest those, but overall, this is not just some seasonal flu.
While flu deaths in children are reported to CDC, flu deaths in adults are not nationally notifiable. In order to monitor influenza related deaths in all age groups, CDC tracks pneumonia and influenza (P&I)-attributed deaths through the National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) Mortality Reporting System. This system tracks the proportion of death certificates processed that list pneumonia or influenza as the underlying or contributing cause of death. This system provides an overall indication of whether flu-associated deaths are elevated, but does not provide an exact number of how many people died from flu.
2017-8 flu season 62,000 died and 25,000,000 were hospitalized. Now one of the results of flu in elderly is of course pneumonia and when they die of pneumonia that is how it was listed. With this wuhan crap they take anything even remotely exacerbated by wuhan and claim it to be a wuhan death. Never do they say it is from people with other serious life ending on their own problems in combination with wuhan with an average age of 75.
Some people actually think they have a constitutional right to infect others. Thank goodness for thinking and caring people like Snarbut.
If you are going to compare mortality rates, compare them to similar countries. Sweden is at 12.4% and every country that borders Sweden in under 5%. Draw your own conclusion.
Conspiracy paranoia is rampant in the U.S.A.. Is it in other countries as well? Attributing motive to those you disagree with is risky business. How many here have been tested, even once? Everyone in The White House gets tested every single day. If the threat/risk is overstated, why? Many carriers never knew they were infected, yet could have passed the virus on to others.
"
There are piles of bodies telling us that this is not just the flu.
" You seriously need to do some research into how they change the calculation of Wuhan to fit the need. For instance in Virginia where the Gov wants as much damage to the economy as he can get for election time they have changed the way they count wuhan cases. Now if 24 hours or more has passed the same person can be tested and each time be a "new" case. This nice Gov has also said things will not open back up until the new case rate goes down but he made it so that will not happen.
Then please go to the CDC site and carefully look at the flu stats from 2010 until now. In particular when you do so remember that they did not change the way flu was calculated but they have done so with Wuhan Red Death so it has been purely political from the word go.
2017-8 flu season 62,000 died and 25,000,000 were hospitalized. Now one of the results of flu in elderly is of course pneumonia and when they die of pneumonia that is how it was listed. With this wuhan crap they take anything even remotely exacerbated by wuhan and claim it to be a wuhan death. Never do they say it is from people with other serious life ending on their own problems in combination with wuhan with an average age of 75.
Biggest bunch of fear mongering and blatant attempts at overthrowing the constitution this nation has ever seen.
Getting awfully snarky in here, folks. My 2 cents: pay attention to the health care professionals, not the political hacks and talking heads. Stay safe. There are piles of bodies telling us that this is not just the flu.
"
If you want to do your part, go out and protest the unconstitutional lockdown and closing of businesses.
" DAMN RIGHT this is all political BS to destroy this nation. I can't believe how many can't see the tyrant right in front of them reaching out to take the constitution of the USA away. No face mask and I go where I want and screw these Wuhan Red Death fraud merchants of doom. A death rate lower than flu and pnuemonia and then add into it all the bogus ways they count people to claim they died of Wuhan Red Death. This is the most monstrous and cynical attempt to destroy freedom in my lifetime.
The fact that your experience has been different is THE main issue. The
response to the pandemic was general and central. THAT was the mistake.
Counties in northern California with ZERO cases never needed the same
measures as New York City.
@geoffkait Thanks
for those mortality rates. That clears up everything. Well, at least it
clears up why so many people don't seem to have a clue about this
pandemic.
@snarbut2, Empty hospitals during a pandemic are, in fact, a sign that we got things wrong and I think it is typical of the narrow thinking that is going on that it is not a real issue. A pandemic of its own. You, of course, know that people's healthcare needs do not stop just because there is a pandemic. Downplaying the significance of delayed care is not a responsible response. That suffering, morbidity and mortality is no less real than those suffering from COVID. And, once we know the numbers may turn out to be worse.
The fact that your experience has been different is THE main issue. The response to the pandemic was general and central. THAT was the mistake. Counties in northern California with ZERO cases never needed the same measures as New York City.
@geoffkait Thanks for those mortality rates. That clears up everything. Well, at least it clears up why so many people don't seem to have a clue about this pandemic.
Mortality rates. Fair enough. Let’s look at some of them, shall we? Sweden’s mortality rate is 12% currently. UK is 14%, France 15% and Belgium 16%. By contrast the US rate is 6%. I’ll grant you the rate in Denmark and Finland is 5%.
Mystery is what made a poster switch from dismay about lack of response earlier in the pandemic to dismay with care during pandemic now. Twilight zone?
Sweden's mortality rates are higher than its neighbors, hospital beds are empty because elective surgeries are postponed, and I urge those with a modicum of critical thinking to ignore the nonsense spewed by some around here...stay safe, ignore the faux news hate spewing lunatics as they're simply, and dangerously, wrong.
All perfectly rhetorical questions, and yet they have all been answered. Its just that you're not being told. Fake news isn't always lies. Its also selective reporting.
Sweden never did lockdown or quarantine, and yet has as low or lower rates of infection and death as countries that did, including next-door neighbor Norway. So you can't say it was the climate. Ditto South Dakota, never any lockdowns at all. And you can't say its sparsely populated because the biggest cities there believe it or not have airports and their infection and mortality rates are as low or lower than equivalent US cites.
There's a seriously grave issue here that deserves a lot more attention than its getting. Individual liberty, constitutionally protected liberty, is being trampled on a vast scale on the basis of fear stoked up by information that is heavily manipulated at best, and often flat out wrong. The problem with this is the damage being done to our public institutions, constitutional republic form of government, and the rule of law.
All I know is, John Prine was infected by and died from exposure to someone already infected. Did that person not have on a mask? Should We The People be able, through our elected representatives, to require all people to wear masks while in public? Is to do so infringing on the rights of all? Does the individual’s rights and freedoms trump (no pun intended) the general population’s rights to be protected from irresponsible and potentially deadly behavior?
It all boils down to that timeless expression: "I'm from the government and I'm here to help".
They admitted up front that many govt's seriously considered letting the virus run its course. Let'em die was the cry. Grandma's not got many living years left anyway. I want the house!
Many countries did elect to do just that. Was that the wiser path? We can tally that up in a few more months. Winners and losers. The American way.
If you want get elected or re-elected bodies in the streets are not the photo op you want. Can't have it. Better to mtg off the kids future.
Dems now offering $2k month to everyone. (who can vote) What will Trump counter with? Stay tuned.
I can't believe I'm about to do this on an audiophile thread. I'm a sucker for punishment, it seems. Here we go. I'm an inpatient internal medicine physician in a badly hit hospital on the east coast. We had less than 20 covid positive or rule outs on the day the lock downs started I'm our area. We peaked at just shy of 200 in hospital(that is total admitted at that moment in time, not total positives. People die or get discharged. Hundreds died. Fortunately, hundreds more have been discharged)with respiratory failure with covid. The peak was about 20 days after the lockdowns started and have slowly but steadily declined after a plateau of about a week(average time to death or discharge is 16 to 18 days). This is pretty much right in line with how you would expect it to go in relation to a lock down and the timeline as it pertains to covid-19 illness. Numbers played out similarly in the surrounding hospitals.
In hard hit areas, I'm not so sure the "cure" was worse than the disease. The hospitals here were certainly not empty. We opened up 2 extra wings. We turned the same day unit into another ICU. We were still full. We weren't laying people off. We had nurses from around the country flown in to help. Same goes for physicians. Similar stories in the surrounding hospitals.
I'm very happy that in many parts of the country...it didn't play out this way. That is, after all...the point, though. The entire point. I am amazed when I see people point at the current numbers and call out that the numbers aren't that bad. "See! It's not that bad!" Yea, it's not horrible. After taking drastic measures it's not horrible.
I'm not going to argue that things were managed properly. I won't argue that the lockdowns don't have costs of their own(of course they do, no $#!?). I won't make a claim that I know how to handle this moving forward systemically. I will say that claiming that empty hospitals during a pandemic means mistakes were made or that we've clearly screwed up isn't really a great statement in isolation. Once again...that is the point. Stop the spread of the virus. Waiting until it gets a foothold in an area before you adjust means waiting until it's too late.
I get it. As a physician, not being able to get things done for your non covid patients in an area that isn't really affected by covid is probably a horrible feeling. It's not fair to those patients. They are paying a disproportionate cost. I don't pretend to have the answer for how we should manage that. I don't think the proper pushback against that is to claim none of this is a big deal, though.
I'm also not claiming that hospitals aren't hurting financially. They are hurting in the areas that have not been touched much by the virus. I know there are layoffs. The hospitals that are the most busy with covid are also getting crushed. Despite being completely full during April with 30 admissions held in the ED and people in the hallways...revenue was down something like 60 or 70%. All the low level but high volume stuff isn't there. I don't have the answers for how to help the hospitals, but, again, I don't think the answer is to claim that covid isn't a big deal(or that it's just a political thing).
*This was typed in a rush on a phone, and I'm not going back to proofread. I'm sure there are plenty of typos etc. Please...forgive them.
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