I'm not an 'audiophile" but I like to think I have a good ear having been a professional musician (principal wind player in major symphony orchestras) for 50 years. A number of years ago going into an excellent audio equipment store I talked with, what seemed, a knowledgeable salesman. Being a musician experienced in audio systems but not expert on all the equipment out there I had some questions concerning high (over-priced?) end cables. The salesman assured there was an audible differencet in a demo room switching back and forth etc. After a few minutes I noticed the sound coming out of only one channel. He complemented me on my "good ear." Hmmm? A few years later when setting up my home system I investigated speaker cables. Two sets of Monster, stranded standard cable, solid core copper (used for alarm system) attached with like connecters. There was a difference. However, not in terms of better or worse: bass and treble were acceptable as was clarity loud and soft. Differences were esthetic- like asking "whose the best tenor" (I like Plácido). Now I know as a musician used to live (i.e. un-amplified) music that all I hear coming out of a loud speaker is perforce ersatz. But most everything today comes out of a loud speaker whether a rock concert or a hi-fi system so perhaps my opinion is curmudgeonly. But, for me, spending oodles of money on hyped cables, well... I liked the solid core for my alarm system- still do.
jasonbourne52"The Emperor's New Clothes is the applicable paradigm"
That is just so cute and adorable that if you were here I'd give you a hug I think it is great that you are taking what you read and using it to compare it to the real world. Fairy tales and folk tales often have "hidden messages" and there are many good ones have your read Hansel and Gretel? That's a scary one but of course they are usually "simplistic" but fun too.
As you continue your reading I recommend you seek basic, elemental, introductory texts about electricity they will help you understand what a circuit is, how it works, and how electricity can be made to do work for us it is a fascinating topic! If you are in "scouting" I think you can get a merit badge or maybe even more than one for showing a familiarity, understanding, and comfort with the common, essential, necessary terms and parameters of electricity.
Just what we need-another fun and entertaining jaunt to break up the drudgeries of our daily lives with the usual sides (like that of a hexagon) taking up residence.
Allow me to distill this from an the old adage that a plumber's house always leaks: A musicians system is always off key.
Please give a break. The OP “compared” a shitty Monster cable from decades ago to alarm system cable. And arrived to a “scientific “ conclusion that cables do not make a difference. For him and all of the “audiophiles” (the parentheses are his). The usual cable deniers are rejoicing. As if the big proof has been revealed now. Pathetic
I don’t think anyone is advocating censorship, just maybe a little pause and self reflection. Debate (if indeed this is what @exflute had intended and I don’t believe he did) need not be disrespectful or loaded with vitriol. Important to ask before react…not that I’m never guilty of being reactionary, but have found that too often we simply misinterpret intention.
I perform music in a jazz chamber context pretty regularly. I can appreciate what he’s saying here. But I also very much love the process of tweaking and experimenting with my setup (and room) to see how sonically compelling my system can become. Cables (and everything else) can influence tonal color, response, stage width, depth etc.
But the feeling (goosebumps) I get from listening in front of my system is set apart and completely different than when playing in a jazz trio, quarter, quintet. And add to that - when playing for an appreciative and attentive audience to boot.
@exflute did any one here actually ask about your system? And/or, would you be willing to try other changes or tweaks to your system to see what improvements could be had? I’d be curious to know what you’re working with - modest or not - as I believe GREAT sound can be achieved for far less these days.
But I only ask this if you are compelled to seek said changes in sound and tonal nuance. As that in itself can be both frustrating/expensive when it does not make an improvement, but also exhilarating when it does.
Either way, I respect your perspective, and your wonderfully experienced ears 🙏🏼
The reviewer vs driver comparison is a red herring.
Whilst a reviewer may write more entertainingly, there is no training of one’s hearing to match the program. Learning to drive is matching one’s input to the desired vehicle behavior.
People claiming they played in rock bands and also review equipment should be required post a certified hearing test.
Having a good ear and being a musician won’t get you very far in terms of being able to identify and discern differences between audio components, and that includes cables
This might be the single most inane thing ever written here.
Sorry if what I said irritates you, but the best guitarist, flutist, cellist or any other musician on the planet could teach you nothing as long as you have the idea that he/she really doesn’t know what music should sound like.
@jhills It is apparent you’ve completely missed the point of what I, @newbee and several others here have been making. Of course the OP knows well what music sounds like and nobody is arguing with that. But that has little to do with being able to assess what an individual component is adding or subtracting in the context of a home audio system especially if the listener has limited experience with better quality equipment. Again, I’ve played in bands for many years and have also written professional audio reviews for 16 years and there’s very little playing live music has contributed to what I need to know to review audio components and systems. Put another way, a professional musician with little experience with audio equipment isn’t in a much better position to assess or write a review of an audio component than any ordinary Joe off the street because they simply lack the experience and perspective to be able to make those assessments not having heard what better components can provide. It’s like a new versus an experienced driver — yes the new driver can drive at a certain level, but they’ll become a much better driver with more actual driving experience. Same with the ability to assess audio components, which is at the heart of the discussion here
What I am sure of is that not all with an interest in HiFi attain a place where they have become experienced enthusiasts with a broad range of experiences and a trained ear, but this does not matter, as enjoying musical replays are very achievable without developing knowledge through increased experiences.
@pindacWhile I agree someone without a trained ear can put together what they perceive as an enjoyable system to them, with more experience or “training” by listening to better equipment and systems that person will find the flaws in their “enjoyable” system and be in a much better position to build an even more capable and enjoyable system. And this goes back to the OP who is relatively “untrained” in the realm of better cables but blindly dismisses more expensive cables as “hyped” by comparing only cheap cables. This alone makes no sense, and being a professional musician doesn’t help if there’s no perspective on what more expensive cables can offer. That’s the ultimate and fatal disconnect going on here. We mock what we don’t understand.
'Myself and most others here found no fault with his thread, profession or opinion. And hold in great regard those who have dedicated their lives to making and producing the music we claim to love and whether or not we always agree at least respect and value their opinion'.
The OP has shared on experiences encountered and their assessment of the impression made, this is their unique evaluation as there has been no other individual on this forum present at any of the experiences referred to.
As equipment is fundamental to Music Replays, the experiencing equipment runs parallel with this, the more extended these experiences, through received demonstrations, will without doubt, train ones listening abilities, to the point where it able to distinguish changes in a presentation or SQ, as well as allow for a individual to decipher where there most satisfying listening experiences is to be found.
Being a HiFi enthusiast as a ' Lone, in room only participation', is an approach that is quite insular, and can prove to be a method that deprives an individual from expanding on their training to learn where improved presentation and SQ is able to be created through equipment or utilising ancillaries, it is certainly a method that can deprive one of achieving their highest levels of Satisfaction from a music replay.
The OP might only be one or two new experiences away from an experience, that could encourage them to re-evaluate some of their prior assessments, for myself, to take part in new experiences, is where the 'pleasure' is on offer is to be found, it manifests from encountering and being demonstrated unfamiliar equipment.
If enthusiasm is part of the approach to such experiences, which I seem to have in abundance, then this is where the 'fun' begins.
When such experiences being encountered, are able to influence and be an aspiration to achieve in ones own system, which is what I have been met with on occasion, then this is where the 'satisfaction' is to be found.
' Satisfaction' can be a variety of outcomes, for myself, the best is when a New Friendship is formed, as the result of the taking the time to meet with others and expose oneself to another's ideas for their Systems set up, it is extra special when be introduced to items that others have become 'wed to' and are rated as being the items that proved to be game changers.
Following this is the knowing something has occurred with an outcome that has has a meaningful and positive effect, a very good or even indelible impression has occurred, in relation to experiencing new items of equipment or ancillaries.
To occasionally encounter items that are impressive, and are able to compel one into placing it on the curiosity radar, creating an intention for it to be brought in for further evaluation in the home system, is how my experiences of encountering new equipment and ancillaries seems to be the fuel that keeps myself consistently involved.
What I am sure of is that not all with an interest in HiFi attain a place where they have become experienced enthusiasts with a broad range of experiences and a trained ear, but this does not matter, as enjoying musical replays are very achievable without developing knowledge through increased experiences.
Between all enthusiasts, there is not one assembled system that is alike, each user of a system will have produced a System that is either functioning or reliable, that fits into another's design for the home decor', or the the alternative to this method, that is to produce a system that is unique to their preferences, how it looks aesthetically is not of a real concern, the goal is for it to be presenting in a manner that is sympathetic the their sensitivities, without presenting to much of a gaze on the areas within a replay that they sense as being unattractive and not a match for their likes.
'It really is each to their own' and accept others descriptions in relation to the experiences that have been encountered.
Change of viewpoints is always going to be occurring, especially as a result of changes to experiences being encountered, and forums would not have hardly any OP's to respond to, if new making it known that new experiences are being considered, was not the main line of inquiries
In my younger days, I spent many of long nights of practice and most weekends on stage doing gigs with our local rock band to earn extra money. We set up and mixed all our own equipment and at the end of a three hour show we had to tear down and haul many miles back to home. On top of all the work involved I’d say we had quite a good understanding and appreciation of music, how it should sound and how, back then, it was produced.
I did not follow a music career but do have a great deal of respect for those who did. I’ve been an audio enthusiast for more than 35 years now and have had and enjoyed with others who have had some very nice audio equipment and spent many a long night auditioning audio equipment, including cables and cords and mostly enjoying the music.
In short I appreciate the opinions of those who make the music and the opinions and shared views with some fine audiophile friends I’ve had over the years.
Sorry if what I said irritates you, but the best guitarist, flutist, cellist or any other musician on the planet could teach you nothing as long as you have the idea that he/she really doesn’t know what music should sound like.
@thynameThis is funny and ironic. Apologizing to the OP? 😂😂 Never occurred to you that the OP is the issue here, and the subsequent follow through. Disgusting 🤮
Wow, judging from this post and many of your others, here as of late, I'm starting to think you're gunning to be AGon's new Einstein. Just when we thought he was gone.
Myself and most others here found no fault with his thread, profession or opinion. And hold in great regard those who have dedicated their lives to making and producing the music we claim to love and wether or not we always agree at least respect and value their opinion.
Just the same few here who have a continual need to insult others as having inferior equipment and bad hearing, if their opinion doesn't match their own......Jim
@jhills: I'm setting aside some time this coming Memorial Day Weekend SundryAfternoon specifically to ponder your question - when I'll mull over the distinct possibility that your bibs may be bobbing on the surface of the waters of the pondry? When I think I have an answer, I'll cable it to you in a Western Union telegram.
Sorry for many of the responses you're getting. This forum has deteriorated over the years, and civility here as elsewhere seems to be optional. What a disgusting situation.
This is funny and ironic. Apologizing to the OP? 😂😂 Never occurred to you that the OP is the issue here, and the subsequent follow through. Disgusting 🤮
It seems that, on this forum, those who have an opinion based on their experience as a musician, recording engineer, equipment technician or otherwise professionally involved in music or it’s production, receive the most amount of ire and insults from the golden ear crowd who place little to no value on anyone’s professional opinion........Jim
The measurement-only people are looking for a number first from a limited mechanical device before they will allow themselves to listen for a difference.
Sorry for many of the responses you're getting. This forum has deteriorated over the years, and civility here as elsewhere seems to be optional. What a disgusting situation.
So, someone is gonna come along, spouting crap about measurement methodology from 100 years ago like it is some sort of permanent dogmatic bible of truth....... and tell me how I hear --- and how well I hear?
The reality is that science is moving so fast that the peak specialists in a given field cannot hope to ever keep up with the new discoveries in their own field.
To re-iterate, the fastest moving, most intelligent, most published, most up to date, hardest working people in a given high science, cannot and are not keeping up with the pace of discovery and change ----in their own fields.
Where... someone, some jackass on a forum...wants to tell me how I hear and that 100 year old methods of measurement, connected to this situation in cables and hearing, is somehow relevant..core..and utterly decisive and correct.. and disarms and dismisses what hundreds of thousands of audiophiles, if not MILLIONS (over the years) say about the sound of cables.
That such hair brained illiteracy can project itself in this world only speaks well of kind human tolerance.
@khughes: I think the 2022 Memorial Day Holiday itself falls on mondry this year, rather than on sundry, as you said above. In any event, I hope you enjoy yours and manage to get through the long weekend without getting all tangled up in a rat’s nest of cables!
Shunyata Research is the brainchild of Caelin Gabriel, who's efforts to improve his own music listening experience launched the science and research based company in 1997. From humble beginnings, Shunyata Research has grown into an internationally acclaimed company which designs and manufactures high performance electrical and cabling systems for recording, film, medical, surgical and consumer audio-visual systems world-wide. Shunyata Research's 18,000 square foot manufacturing and design facility is based just outside Seattle, in Washington State.
Gotta say, you folks are a Hoot! Almost as fun as watching cartoons on Saturday mornings was back when I was a wee lad, and reptiles still ruled the skies. To shamelessly paraphrase: "Cry 'Cables!', and let slip the dogs of war."
In any event, Happy Holiday weekend to all and sundry (for whom it applies)!
I find that I listen to recordings involving an instrument I have direct experience with (in this case, clarinet) rather differently. Generally I find myself listening more "technically" and less emotively.
it solves everyone’s cable dilemma perfectly: a Bose Table-Top Radio with Built-In CD Player (it does have a short wire antenna to pick up local FM and AM radio stations). Nothing could better help us avoid having to deal with interconnect cables in an audiophile system than what I describe here. Simplicity is THE way to go!
Right on! I own a bicycle instead of a car so I don’t have to deal with pumping all that gas. Sure it might suck a little when it rains, snows, is 10 degrees outside, or when my destination is 100+ miles away and requires me to bring luggage. But it’s so worth it to not have to pump any gas. Yeesh.
I have a WONDERFUL, nearly cable-free sound system - the only cable it has is the power cord to the wall outlet - no other cords needed; it solves everyone’s cable dilemma perfectly: a Bose Table-Top Radio with Built-In CD Player (it does have a short wire antenna to pick up local FM and AM radio stations).
Nothing could better help us avoid having to deal with interconnect cables in an audiophile system than what I describe here. Simplicity is THE way to go!
I’m a classical professional expiano player and believe I have pretty good ears too.
I understand you feel recorded music can never equal live music and I agree with that. But, it can come closer than what I believe you think. The better your system, the closer it gets. I’m not so sure your system is at the point where you can effectively evaluate that closeness.
Like you, I'm a flutist with academic degrees in music - and I have a high-end audio system. I'm the last one to claim that my ears are better than anyone else's ears. In fact, I have two "golden ears" people whose opinions I highly value when deciding on equipment, and neither of them knows anything about music. I think it's about how closely you listen, and how you evaluate what you hear.
I started with a cardboard record player. When I got a little older, my mom let me play records on her console stereo. The sound was better, especially the bass. Next step was a Dynamo ST70/PAS 3x powering Utah 12" speakers. Better. Then I swapped out the lamp cord for Monster cables. There was an undeniable improvement in sound quality, which was even more noticable when I upgraded to some B&O speakers.
I had to leave the Monster cables at home when I went to college, and went back to zip cables. That only lasted a few weeks, and despite being a broke college student found the money to buy another set of Monster cables. The Monster cables sounded better, and I was rewarded by my cable upgrade and was content. There was no question that the Monster cables performed better in my modest system.
Flash forward to today. I have a small collection of decent cables, and can afford to buy whatever I want. I enjoy monkeying around with speaker cables and interconnects, and there are differences, but they are subtle (not big differences like the zip cord/Monster cable difference). What I seek today is lack of listening fatigue and easier involvement in the music. Sound "quality" stays about the same: if I listen just for a few minutes I can’t discern much of a difference, but after a few hours it is easy to tell which cables work better in my system.
Cabling…power cords - interconnects - speaker will make things sound different. whether you like the change or not is up to the individual.
Best to get great components that work well together and then tryout a few products to see if they’ll enhance your sound.
Remember it’s a hobby and have fun…the used market is a great way to experiment. Many times I have bought and sold items and usually recoup my investment.
When I first started out, my Radio was the main method to listen to music replays, as that was immediately available and in use regular within the home.
I developed an interest in Buying Vinyl LP Albums as a Teenager, along with friends, CD and Vinyl LP's were contending, this was the golden era, I would imagine for the commercial side of HiFi, two bites of the Cherry for Album Sales and transitions from one Source Material to another and the sales of equipment needed.
Music Replays were much enjoyed and the equipment used to achieve this was not too overbearing as a discussion.
Live music was my main interest, the LP Collection and replays were more rainy day activities.
Reading HiFi Media was for Older Types, Concerns for SQ were not debated, the use of the Vinyl or CD was to mainly familiarise oneself with the new material being produced by Artists and being ready for upcoming concerts.
As the time passed and I became more homely minded, a interest in HiFi System Building developed and has been a mainstay interest. There are influences in abundance when this line of interest develops, the whole of the arena is all about the equipment, Sales Men, Media, Enthusiasts forget the music and beat the drum about the equipment and exchanges, upgrades, modifications and the resulting assessments of the SQ.
Everybody has an opinion, and everyone has unique sensitivities that will help them determine what they like, when assessing equipment, resulting in an endless amount of descriptions on offer.
With Music it is a little different, there is an impact, a knee jerk emotional experience, something hits home, an indelible encounter has happened, to the point for some, in the minds eye they aspire to be the Performer/Musician.
Then there are the lesser types who are motivationally influenced and actually attain their aspiration to become a Performer / Musician.
I am totally aware of how being present at a live performance and actively participant in the celebrations, is quite different to being a lone listener in a room experiencing a Music being replayed through equipment.
The former has proved best for uplifting my spirits and creating indelible memories, where musical encounters are concerned. .
When I first started out I couldn’t hear much, if any, differences between wires and CD players, but with time and experience they become obvious and much easier to hear and appreciate.
Could be that you got better at listening, or possibly, you've become indoctrinated with the audiophile orthodoxy. Reading mags, going to audio shows, hanging out in audio forums -- next thing you known your fuses are directional. I'm just saying.
I am not prepared to concede, as quite a number here have posited, that exflute's ears are good for playing in a professional orchestra but bad for hearing cable differences.
I just can’t — it’s like trying to reason with a bag of hammers.
'In any case, the op does not deserve the personal attacks. Hi fi should be fun and entertainment, a hobby (no matter how pointless or expensive it might be) and not the extension of someone's ego...',
are my sentiments exactly, each to there own, and each to using the equipment and ancillaries where they are most satisfied.
In the OP there is a reference to a experience that potentially caused the thread creator to be aloof, this is possibly something expressed by all to some degree, who have spent time close to the retail side of HiFi.
The results the thread creator has perceived during their own trials with Cables are their experience, perception and assessment, I accept their findings.
There are people who are in this hobby and claim that there are not differnces between cables, or that digital transports sounds the same or that diy dacs or speakers sound good or better than hi end products. Perhaps I would argue with them, if I had extra time to spend on unknown people and unimportant subjects.
On the other hand, there are people who are not in this hobby and to whom any properly configurated hi fi system may sound almost the same and who are not burdened by its imanent idiosyncracy.
It would be wise if every such statement should be taken within its context and with proper understanding of its origin.
On the other hand, op has raised some interesting questions, perhaps even unintentionally. Some food for the thoughts...
Does hi fi have meaning beyond listening of unamplified music (other than classical, jazz or similar)
Does anybody really believe that hi fi reproduction can sound like a 'real thing'?(except for the tone and timbre of instruments)...Stereo does not exist in the nature...(there are excellent mono systems, I know)
Hi fi is all about creation of illusion of 'live event' and no matter how big is your room, I doubt that anyone can fit in a symphonic orchestra...Somebody even wrote that his reproduction is even more real than the live event...which is fine if you are fan of hyperrelism...but, some might call such way of expression as artificial, with every right...
Naming hi fi as a tool which will help as hear the recordings as they were made is another myth. Nobody, except the mastering engineers knows how something sounded before its been worked on. We can only compare the recordings with our imaginary references, that were made on live events or perhaps by listening different gear.
In any case, the op does not deserve the personal attacks. Hi fi should be fun and enterteiment, a hobby (no matter how pointless or expensive it might be) and not the extension of someone's ego...
Let me see if I can throw some light on where @exflute was coming from. To him all music is not the same. For him pure unamplified live acoustic music is different from other forms. He's a classical musician. I think he's got a good point and one I can understand. For him electronic artifacts are an interference to his listening pleasure, be it an electric guitar, a tape recorder, a digital set-up, whatever. That's not unreasonable surely. After all, we all admit there is no perfect hi-fi system; in fact more are a poor substitute for live music. But its all we have.
I am not prepared to concede, as quite a number here have posited, that exflute's ears are good for playing in a professional orchestra but bad for hearing cable differences.
"This used to be among the absolute best forum. Now its a food fight filled with newbies who are no more audiophile than my 7 yr old niece. But they know it all, like I did when I was 17-18."
Wow! This and similar comments from others in this thread should make people in the industry, hoping to lure new users to the audiophile world weep.
Big +1 @newbeeBingo!!! I’ve played in a band for many years, and there’s very little from playing live music that translates to assessing individual components of an audio system. And I don’t care how good you think your ears are — being able to judge audio components takes many hours of listening to a wide variety of equipment to even begin to be able to make useful, robust, and reliable conclusions. This is especially true for components like cables and digital front ends where differences can be more subtle yet still critical to the overall and ultimate performance of a stereo system, and these components take even more time than other components to get to know what to listen for. When I first started out I couldn’t hear much, if any, differences between wires and CD players, but with time and experience they become obvious and much easier to hear and appreciate. So given the OP’s clear lack of experience in these areas it’s not surprising he’s happy with garbage wire — he has no perspective to know what he’s hearing. But then to make the silly and ridiculous leap to state that more expensive cables are just “hype,” well, that’s where it got uncool for me. Anyway, thanks newbie for reinforcing what I said in my first post.
A.) cables get much less attention on the pro side whether it is the recording studio or the electric musician.
Not so. Professional studios have long been cognizant of cable deltas. One studio had Monster, Mogami, Canare, Belden, etc. and some then 40 year old Neumanns. The room, microphones, wiring, console and recorder all contribute to "The Sound" of famous places like Air, Sunset, The Record Plant, Hit Factory, etc. Many’s the time a part was recorded ’cross town for the particular flavor. Sometimes we’d rent a particular recorder to keep that flavor constant and garnish with the other flavors.
OP:
But, for me, spending oodles of money on hyped cables, well... I liked the solid core for my alarm system- still do.
@newbee:
Yet he is gleeful, I think, in making a pronouncement that selection of wires is of minimal benefit in audio systems.
I’m 100% in agreement on the lunacy of spend beacoup bux on cables hyped by FanBoys or salesmen.
About 40 years ago, I ran an AES clinic wherein we compared a pricy Monster speaker wire and THHN. Very few participants got better than a coin toss. A few got very high marks is discerning the difference, which was not subtle. Those same few also got high marks in the valve vs SS and polarity clinics. Bottom line, in any population, some can tell all of the time, some some and some none. IMO, the closer one moves to NONE, the more strident the advocacy. The NONEs who spend the most are perhaps the most strident.
Since we’re ’reading into’, presumably many of the posters here would fare no better than guessing, but ramble on about the benefits of cables they own connected to their gear in their room on their program.
It’s silly to think cables can have no effect and purely unscientific to think that a particular cable will shine in all instances. About twenty years ago, after I’d been out of recording for about 15 years, I upped the HiFi ante a little and auditioned some qualtiy cables. It’s irrelevant for everyone but me & the missus in that room but maybe a bit entertaining ieLogical Audiophilia Redux Cable Quest
Few musicians and engineers I worked with had a HiFi worth mentioning. One top engineer commented that my system was too good as it exposed the LP for the rubbish it is compared to the master tape played on the recording deck in the mix room.
Just for clarity, I am not asking you or anyone else to post their system here but, for those who do, seeing their virtual system usually allows me a better understanding of their viewpoints. I am sorry your information was doxed.
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