Cable Break In for the Naysayers

Ozzy - if that's what you hear then go for it.  The mind can do incredible things that feel very real.

The Naysayers opinion on cable breakin is probably due to the system that is used (and perhaps the ears) is not revealing enough.

And/if you progress through this hobby with better equipment, cables and the breakin will be more apparent.

ozzy

I am not here to argue this point. However, I do wish one of the cable makers or some audiophile physicist would explain the science behind cable break-in.

I would say for any naysayers buy anything with rhodium. If you want an example of extreme break in, all naysayers should buy a Furutech rhodium NCF outlet. 

When it comes to break-in I will quote Dug and say, "I'm having two feelings."

I have some balanced Morrow Audio MA4 interconnects.  I didn't focus much on the break-in, but here's how I would describe my experience:

The expectation bias was set by their cable owners manual that essentially says that the cables start out sound good, then go through a period where they sound bad, and then they get great.

When I first hooked them up they sounded amazing and I spent quite a bit of time listening.  Then there was a couple of days where I wouldn't describe the sound as obviously bad, but I would just listen for a couple of minutes and then walk away.  After even more time I started getting sucked into listening again.  I can't say that I could tell a difference between. new and broken in with absolute certainty, but I can say that there were a period of time where I didn't find my system engaging when before and after that time I had to pull myself away and this period of time aligned with what Morrow Audio described.

I try to identify a scientific reason for the things that I experience and I've got nothing for cable break-in.

I’m not going to settle this debate, but I can tell you this with 100% certainty

If you google this topic you will find hundreds of threads over many years where you get the exact same arguments on both sides and it always ends right where it started... nowhere.

like all the threads before this one and all that will come after they are  and always will be a complete and utter waste of time

I would be interested to know if anyone has ever done a blind or double-blind test with cables. Two sets of identical cables, one broken in for 500 hours, and the other with no hours of use.  The test would consist of the same amp, source and speakers - just toggling back and forth between cables A and B.  Would anyone be willing to bet $5000 that they can consistently tell which cables are being played?  I am guessing that answer is NO.  Or, I suppose the mysterious "broken-in phenomena" suddenly disappears after you disconnect the wires from the source and speakers?

@willywonka : At last a sane voice among the nut cases!​​

@liquidsound 

@ghdprentice 

+2

I guess everyone has an opinion on this subject and I would like to hear it. For those of you who believe all cables are the same, please can you describe the sound quality you have experienced before or after the scientific measurements; do they agree with the sound quality?

Have you ever tried other cables? Did any of them sound different?

And most important, share with us the type of audio equipment you are using, including cables, amps, speakers etc.

ozzy

Oh, did you not hear - he found that cable break-in is true and have started comparing different cables. Lets wait to hear from him about his findings.

I’m kind of concerned about @jasonbourne52 anyone seen him around lately? Shouldn’t he be here complaining?    : )

Sorry Jaygilb but there is no way my ears made good with what was coming out of my speaker cables when I first used them. There were times when the signal was so garbled was completely unlistenable. To each his own.

I had a new power cable put into my system this week. It sounded immeditately better, but also had introduced what seemed like a phase issue for the first 2 days of 4-5 hour listening sessions. On day 3 listening session it settled into what it's supposed to sound like.

How there is even a question about cable break-in is beyond me. I have to presume either their room/ listening environment is less than ok, no enough resolution in the gear/system/ system not setup properly, or ears aren't up to par. It's real. No tin hats or flat earth BS here. 

I also believe, not know, that once past a certain point, break in, design, cost....the law of diminishing returns hits pretty hard, mostly what we start getting into is differences and those can be quite profound and enable that synergy so often talked about. I choose to do so strictly DIY as can save a fortune on it, even when I had ten times the income as I do now I still practiced that way of doing things.

Anyone who thinks if cannot be a possibility if it cannot be measured has a bit of a head in the sand(or a darker place)issue as we have barely begun to even design test gear capable of such measurements, let alone fully understand some of the most advanced things we actually use. We are in the dark ages compared to where we will be going in all things and I believe this particular civilazation is going to make it, unlike at least 4 before us.

Imagination is a powerful thing. 

@liquidsound 

+1

Yeah, you can believe the true Audiophiles who actually listen to music not measurements.

Earbuds probably measure pretty well too.

ozzy

I heard it with my own ears is the least believable response that one could give.
The human brain is very dynamic and is the most reasonable explanation to why it’s not cable burn in, but brain adaptation.

Electron flow doesn’t change in cables after time and no one has ever given a truly scientific explanation on what could possibly happen to create an audible difference
in the molecular structure that could be attributed to people’s claims.

I’ve done analysis of ultra-high speed cables used in super computer interconnects and never did we have to worry about metallic cables changing properties after use. Electro-migration in semi-conductors is a real phenomenon, but we’re dealing with tiny areas of metallization where a difference of a small percentage of material can have a real world effect.
 

I have heard the difference between new and broken-in cabling nearly all my audiophile life.  Even when I had my first real audiophile system I was able to tell the difference between the new and broken-in cabling.  I recently purchased Iconoclast speaker cables and while they sounded good right out of the box, after about 100-hours of music played, they really smoothed out.  It's challenging to describe the differences in sound, however it improved notably from first listens.  I believe that is true for components as well.  I remember changing the output capacitors in my preamp from Jenzens to Duelund CAST and boy I didn't care for the initial sound !  Hard and cold is how I'd describe it but after a good deal of playing, the transformation was amazing.  I'm glad the designer said to just wait.  The sound will change.  He was right.  I don't think it was the metallurgy but break-in of the dielectric that I believe made the difference.  So, I'm a definite believer of the effect of break-in on the sound.  

Yeah, the measurement thing can be a real dichotomy in that it would be nice for both measurements and listening experiences to match, either both good or both bad, but alas, that too often doesn't seem to be the case with this audio stuff.

I have not owned Topping gear but I have owned Benchmark's linestage and their top DAC (still own) and I agree, no matter how well Stereophile says they measure, to me they sound neutral to the point of being sterile.  The don't do anything "wrong" but they also don't engage me.  However, I had similar thoughts about Mola Mola's Tambaqui, which I would describe as sounding "perfect" but not as engaging as two other DACs I have here (not the Benchmark).

I think that audio science guy really likes the Topping Equipment. He claims it really tests well with his lab equipment.

Has anyone actually used this equipment? I have, and it sounds terrible, so sterile! No life in the music.

Tests great, sounds bad. 

ozzy

jafant,

I had an opportunity to replace both my speaker cables (used) and the interconnect cable (new) with the AQ Thunderbird. Now along with my AQ Dragon power cords and the AQ 7000 conditioner I now have a complete loom of all AQ cabling.

I am not using a preamp; I am going straight from my Lumin X1 to my mono block amps.

ozzy

ozzy

Great thread as always. Which XLR did the new AQ THunderbird XLR replace?

Are you placing the new AQ between Amp/Pre-Amp? Or, Pre-Amp and Source?

Happy Listening!

That Audio Science guy is always negative about HI-End audio stuff. He does all these measurements but never actually listens to music to evaluate.

ozzy

Here is a review of AudioQuest battery cable.

 

@raam  Well said.  I often wonder which is funnier.   Watching Dems and Republicans argue, or cable believers  vs cable deniers.  Never a dull moment either way. 🤣

Those who claim absolutes seem rather narrow minded and ignore real science as it actually has shown us many things and will continue to do so. As as touched upon by another poster all there is is a lot of energy and maybe just a tiny bit of mass in the universe. Look into it, amazing way to spend your time instead of nay saying something you may not be open minded enough to comprehend.

My personal "belief" as in all things I am aware of are subject to change as I learn more each day I live. I do not know anything, only believe somethings, glad to adapt as I experience a new perspective.

Do cables burn in? I believe it is quite likely just based on actual science(I read a great deal and watch incredible videos of highly regarded scientists, doctors, engineers, etc...)

Is there  bit of snake oil involved in some of this? I am quite sure there is but I am not going to try to prove or disprove it. I will just enjoy the level I choose to participate in having some fun, DIY and lower cost, building cables, speakers, etc....I enjoy the bobby and the music, probably hobby more but it is only one of many I have.

If I were to recommend anything it would be to give up on trying to change someones mind either way, not likely going to happen so the time used up is basically just pissing in the wind, surely there are better things to do.

Beware, having an open mind can be a disturbing experience, science, politics, actual history, religion and more are not often close to what most believes as fact.

Rick

I don’t agree. I do not believe equipment exists (yet) to measure the burn in/breakin of cables. But if you had the audio equipment and ears you would be a believer.

I remember feeling the same way as you do now many years ago about power cords. I felt how can a power cord change the musical sound quality? I was sure they would test the same. Wire is wire...right?

But a dealer gave me a Synergetic Research Master Coupler to take home and try. When I first connected it up, I was convinced as you are now that it could not possibly make a difference. Then I cued up the first song and ... huh? How can this be? More bass, bigger soundstage??? Just from changing a power cord that is supposed to be the same gauge? Can’t be...

From that day on I was convinced that we really don’t know as much as we think we know when it comes to sound quality, equipment, and yes cables. Measurements can only test OHMs Law.

ozzy

I can partially agree with the people who aren’t into measurements. My agreement is that we don’t always know what a good measurement should look like. But here’s what I firmly believe. If an audible change has happened, that change will be measurable. All it takes is some effort. We don’t have god-like hearing. Test equipment is orders of magnitude more sensitive to subtle changes in the signal. No change that we can hear is going to get past the equipment. If an audible change has occurred because of cable burn-in, that will be easily measurable by a competent person with decent equipment. 

I recently tested a group of integrated amplifiers and thought I was hearing differences. I took out the calibrated mic. and compared the speaker measurements with the different amps hooked up. The frequency response showed very clear and repeatable differences depending on which amp was hooked up. I'm not all that competent, nor is my measuring equipment anything special, and yet even I could demonstrate measurable differences in the response of my speakers with different integrated amps installed. If I heard differences between cables, I'm sure I could measure that too.

@tooblue my power cords changed drastically after i switched from burned in demo cords to the brand new cords I purchased (same models).  I think getting used to a particular sound is part of it too, but not in this particular case.

it’s a bit disturbing that, even today, there are self-identified audiophiles who ridicule those who hear differences between cables. This issue, frankly, was settled long ago.

In fact, there was a study published in MIT’s Electronic Music Journal back in, I think, the 1980s or 1990s, that documented cable-comparison testing with a double-blind methodology. I remember scanning that piece & probably could dig it up today if I had to.

The study found that that some participants could easily distinguish among cables, but others had trouble. One anonymous tester (identified only by initials "JA" (!) ) scored 100% on all tests. Better than five-zero confidence, right?

In my case, two of the three most dramatic changes to my system in the last 20 years were due to major cable upgrades -- once interconnects, once power cables. These were "quantifiable" differences to the extent that, with the old cables, I could point to the specific locations of clearly defined images around the room. After swapping in the new cables, the soundstage broadened so significantly that the images in the same recordings moved to new locations. This was repeatable and not a subtle effect. Other cable upgrades in my system, however, produced no effect that I could hear, at least before break-in.

In all these examples, the point is that not hearing a difference isn’t conclusive evidence either way of the fact that cables can matter (there could easily -- even likely -- be weaker links in the audio chain), but hearing a difference does.

My personal opinion, and again this is based mostly on "mere" personal experience, is that those who still cling to the "cables don’t matter" faith-based belief are either sufferring from confirmation error or drawing unwarranted conclusions from ad hoc comparisons.

My 2c.

Congratulations @ozzy 

I hope to someday get new PC’s, but first I’m saving for a better streamer.

@ozzy I am with you on cable break in and WTS, I believe that our ears/brain adapting is also part of the process. Enjoy the music

"I just experienced cable break in again firsthand."

I suggest changing "experienced" to "perceived".

There have been some very good posts on both sides of the question.

From this discussion, If I had not heard the difference before/after breakin I too might (maybe) have been convinced that cables do not break in. Afterall it’s just wire and insulation?

But this phenomenon is real to me, as I have experienced equipment and cabling break in too many times in my 50+ years in this hobby.

However, it does seem that AudioQuest cables are especially sensitive to break in. My Dragon power cords were also quite dramatically changed after break in.

BTW, my system is posted on my systems page.

ozzy

Wire doesn't change its properties over time! Also, electronic components have very high tolerances and don't change after 100 hours.  Break in claims never cease to amaze me. It's your hearing that is changing adjusting to the new sound. People can believe whatever they want though but, in my opinion, its complete nonsense!

The only ABSOLUTE in cable "break in" threads-

Never concensus that "break in" is fact.

Cable "break in" does seem more plausible than

"directional cable?"

For a specific example of the inconsistency of measurements vs perceived sound, consider Benchmark amps, preamps & DACS. From all the reviews I’ve seen, they measure as good as if not better than just about anything at any price but don’t sound as musical, natural & pleasing as much else available.  

Nordost has a plug in board that can burn in cables. It is so easy to prove. Take a listen to a new cable and then swap them out for the burned in pair. If you feel some thing is off or biased take two Blue Sound Nodes plugged into the same preamp playing I. The same group. It definitely makes a difference. If it doesn’t. Maybe you are better off because your system is not that sensitive or detailed. You can even swap cables between the two BlueSound Nodes and see if you get the same results that the one pair is better. The crystals can change I. The metal when heat or current is applied. I’m not a fan of the measurements crew. I believe there is an imperfection to perfection. Meaning, you need a little $&?! In your system to believe it sounds real. That being said it is up to the listener. I have helped so many friends with dialing in their system. Regardless of the equipment they all preferred a little imperfection. Cable burn in is a real occurrence. Wheather it can be measured or not. Darren from PS Audio developed a phono stage by how it measured. It didn’t work. He then modified it by listening. It is a very, very popular phono stage. Now if someone could create an algorithm from measuring that can produce something that is perfect to humans. One of you out their has to be into AI. Please get on this. 

OZZY,,

Describe your system.  I upgraded my cables and I think I heard an improvement.  I was also amazed by how much a power cable made.  There are so many knowledgeable people in this group!

So well said @puptent 

@jonwolfpell +1 Everything wiggles and vibrates.

Let’s see how engineers measure this. And predict its movements and outcomes. And then prove it.

- - - -

Tube-rolling = same specs = different materials/construction = different SQ.

Capacitors = same specs = different materials/construction = different SQ.

Resistors = same specs = different materials/construction = different SQ.

Cabling = same specs = different materials/construction = different SQ.

All requiring burn-in.