It is probable that cable break-in is most obvious on horn speakers given their sensitivity notoriously so in the treble regions. It is in the upper registers that my Klipsch Cornwall 4's demonstrate break-in most unequivocally. I never "adjust" to shrill highs. They either go away or I do, or rather the cable goes away.
Cable Break In for the Naysayers
I still cannot believe that in this stage of Audio history there are still many who claim cable break in is imagined. They even go so far as claim it is our ears that break in to the new sound. Providing many studies in the way of scientific testing. Sigh...
I noticed such a recent discussion on the What’s Best Forum. So here is my response.
______________________________________________________________________________________________ I just experienced cable break in again firsthand. 10 Days ago, I bought a new set of the AudioQuest Thunderbird XLR 2M interconnects.
First impression, they sounded good, but then after about 30 hours of usage the music started sounding very closed in and with limited high frequencies. This continued until about 130 hours of music play time.
Then at this time, the cables started to open up and began to sound better and better each passing hour. I knew at the beginning they would come around because they sounded ok at first until the break in process started. But now they have way surpassed that original sound.
Now the soundstage has become huge with fantastic frequency extensions. Very pleased with the results. Scientifically I guess we can’t prove cable break in is real, but with good equipment, good ears, it is clearly a real event.
ozzy
189 responses Add your response
@audiom3 NPS Qt-45 is worth i. t I think it makes a definite improvement. It’s 40% off at the Cable Company now! |
audiom3, Try this. ozzy Contace Enhancer Nano Particle Solution NPS-Q45T Contact Enhancer (thecableco.com) |
@ozzy do you have a link to this QT-45? |
Ozzy, I did not test/compare all of my cables before/after since having and using the Cable Cooker took that variable out of the equation. So, while I am not saying that I found the cooker to work specifically, it certainly let me focus on what I was hearing and not wonder/worry about what I might not be hearing. |
mitch2, You are not alone in your experience. I too have made many cables. Some with copper and some with pure silver with various insulating materials. And I can’t say that I experienced much of a break in effect. Sometimes a little sometimes not. I have also bought/tried so many cables through the years, and I can say, that most of the "new" ones did exhibit some break in. But, as noted in this thread, the AQ Thunderbirds exhibited quite the break in. Perhaps it is due to the type of dialectic used or maybe the design itself. I dunno. I guess nothing in this hobby is truly absolute. ozzy |
About 20 years ago, I decided if I was going to compare expensive cables and make purchase decisions, that I at least needed to make sure I was hearing them at their best. Therefore, I purchased an Audiodharma Cable Cooker that I used to “cook” every cable I tried in my system and later all of the cables I constructed myself. During that time, I tried multiple cables (both manufactured and DIY) before/after “cooking” and I honestly cannot say I ever heard what I would call a meaningful difference between the uncooked and cooked versions. I have heard significant differences between electronics, speakers, individual analog cables, rooms, and software for digital playback, but nada related to cable break-in (or fuses). |
Speaker cables will breakin using a high current amp. I/C will never breakin with the amount of current produced from a CD player or preamp. I use a old pioneer receiver and connect RCA or XLR to the speaker terminals. I then use a 20 watt sandbar resistor to terminate. After turning the receiver volume up to about 1/2 way I let it sit for 4 days. I just did this burn in process with a brand new pair of Shunyata Sigma 4 meter long XLR cables. I have also done this with 4 pairs of Shunyata Anaconda XLR cables. The difference is very noticeable. |
@kennyc -
As long as you never stop CRITICALLY THINKING, EXPERIMENTING and LISTENING.
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The cable company that I've been buying cables from since 2017, Audio Sensibility, offers cable break-in for an additional $10 CAD. I have never once ordered the break-in in my dozens of orders. Not that I am cheap, I just keep thinking that one of these times, I may notice a difference between new and ~100 hours of use. But I still have yet to find the right cable :( Not disputing the OP, just saying I have never been able to notice any change. I either like it in the first 20 seconds of use, or not. |
“My Silver, Palladium, and Fidelium cables were all designed from the transmission line or waveguide point of view that electricity flows between the conductors, not in the conductors. The energy is transmitted in the form of an electromagnetic wave. Energy does, however, penetrate the metal conductor material and that portion of the energy becomes a secondary error or memory signal (time-delayed). The physics behind this suggests that the smaller or thinner the conductor is, the less time it will take for the electromagnetic wave to penetrate the conductor, thus resulting in a smaller timing error. As you know, many cable manufacturers have evolved to produce cables with smaller and smaller wires to minimize what they describe as the skin effect. Most of them, however, still view electricity flow as electrons inside the wire, like water in a pipe. This is an analogy that does not allow or account for phase or group delay in a wire." |
If the first link, in my above post, isn't working for the (genuinely) interested: https://theconversation.com/from-newton-to-einstein-the-origins-of-general-relativity-50013 Happy listening! |
Much of the foregoing conversation, only shows that not all Physics courses are equal. ie: @carlsbad2 - As a Physicist: to what theory do you lean*, regarding lambda? * There is NO wrong answer! Could/would you honestly say, that opinion jives with your Prof's? Electrical Engineering courses? FA'GET ABOUT IT! |
Time for another rewind: ie: Inescapable FACT: No one understands exactly how electricity works. That’s why there’s so much Electrical THEORY. The number of Wiki-Scientists on these pages, attempting to win the IG-Nobel Prize in Pseudo-Physics, is always amusing. Whenever some highly educated person actually does discover exactly how electricity functions, they’ll be lauded by the scientific community, will have solved some of the disparities between Relativity and Quantum Mechanics, receive a Nobel and we’ll hear about it. Newton’s THEORIES were largely superseded by Einstein and Bohr's. Then came Feynman’s. For now; none of you can absolutely prove your statements (theories), regarding electricity, FUSES, wires, or anything else, as regards our systems. The following articles, read in sequence, illustrate my point: https://www. then: and: |
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mclinnguy, You are right on! We should not poo-hoo something we have never tried. There is so much to learn! I think that is why AudioQuest keeps upgrading their cables. They have been in the forefront of cable development for many decades now, and I am sure they have tested and learned so much. But the process and reinventions will continue. Maybe someday there will be a means to measure a cables sonic quality...and break in? Even today as I listen to music, I am still impressed by the deep and lively soundstage, thanks in part to my cabling. And, you must have the equipment and ears to appreciate cables significance and the burn in process. ozzy |
It's not just a degree, or two, or a PhD or 20+ years of research after the PhD in a single field, they still don't know, and some we will never know, thankfully, but humanity will keep plugging along. I saw a good show once about ten years ago about a humble guy, about science, and those who attempt to pretend to "know it" ; (I tried to look up his name but there are a few with the same credentials, apologies) This aspring university student got a biology degree, decided he always loved honey bees, so dedicated his masters to honey bees, researched honey bees some more and submitted his dissertation on honey bees to earn his PhD. He researched honey bees again 50 hours a week for another 30 years, outside of unfortunately having to teach some lectures to be employed by the university. On the weekends for fun he researched honey bees. After retiring he started to focus on his great love and hobby- researching honey bees. Another 10 years later I believe he did some speeches on honey bees (for fun) and one of the questions was "you are one of the world's experts on honey bees, and have been for decades, how much more is there to possibly learn about honey bees?" He said "I have dedicated over 50 years of my life to honey bees, and I probably only know 1% of what there is to know about honey bees." |
tomic601, Yes, there are many things that can’t be explained by our normal methods. Science and Math try very hard to express with absolutes. And, we do need a foundation to start with. Heck, I’m still trying to figure out what if anything is beyond the Universe. If nothing, then are we in a box? And/or Infinity, it is just something I can’t comprehend. So, I guess I better keep the subject on cables... ozzy |
@ozzy I have had Pegasus and up in my reference system for a long evaluation…. game changer level cables…. expensive but for many worth consideration imo |
Whenever i hear about a degree in X, Y, or Z in engineering or science…i wonder what they have contributed lately to understanding paired photons, the existence of a singularity in a rotating black hole, or even error correction in a quantum computer….. and…it’s crickets…. There are plenty of things we don’t yet fully understand….maybe copper wire…. which is never 100% copper….might….just…. be….one of them….. |
hagtech, jayctoy, Thank you for your comments. It seems some of the cable deniers have died down. I can understand their opinion if they have tried several types of cables and found no difference but to just out-right dismiss without hearing for differences it is hard to believe. At least, to those of us who value sound quality. ozzy |
Good post @ozzy. A lot of the ASR folk state (with apparent absolute authority) that if you can’t measure it, you can’t hear it. I’d like to know approximately which year this started. Was it true a hundred or two hundred years ago? In 1924, we had some very good tube amplifiers, not just for audio, but also long distance telephone and radio. Just how good was the test equipment back them? Sure they could measure distortion at a single frequency, up to a point. They also had wave analyzers (forerunner to spectrum analyzers and VNA). But really nothing super sophisticated. And yet engineers were able to design and build some very good quality amplification. My guess is that a lot of this was done by ear. Therefore, at some point in our history there was a crossover? What year were measurements finally better than hearing? Come on ASR people, when was it? |
The elephant in the living - the gauge of the cable wiring. For instance, on my system running Cornwall 4"s - a high efficiency speaker - changing speaker cable gauge has obvious and logical impacts on sound. Going from 10 gauge "western electric" cable to 16 gauge "western electric" modifies the sound hugely. Granted, I am sort of cheating here but am I really? To pretend that cables are all anonymous, identical non-entities is just too silly. |
@carlsbad2 can you please elaborate on what can possibly change in a vacuum tube throughout the course of the limited break in process you have come to accept as a phenomena? I’m also trying to figure out what exactly goes thru the break in process in a Furutech Rhodium plated outlet that results in such a wild sonic rollercoaster? |
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Looking back at my last post, perhaps I was a little over the top in my message. I guess I get irritated when there are still many so-called audio hobbyists that will dispute the sound quality of different types of cables and poo-hoo cable breakin without any actual first-hand experience. ASR is a website dedicated to that way of thinking. Many of the ASR members express views of the need for scientific testing. Which to me, to a certain extent, is important. But these tests can only measure some form of Ohms law. We can also test for loudness, bass, treble etc. but can we really test wholesomeness of a soundstage? How do you measure a painting, a feeling, or a sound? I guess I can understand some of the skepticism, because yes, the price of some cables seems to be exorbitant, and some of the advertising claims can be way out there. Believe me I do understand. However, there are many cables that will help transform your system and provide that extra pleasure that was just not there with the “wire is wire” thinking. Keep an open mind and actually try it within your own system before passing judgement. I think as I once did, you will be shaking your head saying, I can’t believe it… But I hear it, believe it, and feel it. BTW, my AQ Thunderbird cables probably have around 400 hours on them and continue to improve. I just visited a site that was showing the Clarisys Auditorium (the big brother to my speakers) and they were using 6 mono amps, and they were using a full loom of the AQ Thunderbird cabling... And.. I guess I am still a little over the top... ozzy |
My Thread And My Extra Opinion: Actually, this hobby is supposed to be about musical enjoyment, so the more our equipment improves, the more enjoyment! Throw away the scientific measurements. Use your ears! I am amazed how good my system sounds; each piece has been added based on sound quality with my ears! That includes cables, footers, etc. I have auditioned systems in excess of $1M (that probably measures better than mine) and I believe mine competes if not betters. ozzy |
@ozzy , my new Audioquest Dragon Source cords (3) have just now reached the point where I cannot hear / perceive any difference between them and the fully burned-in demo cord I had on hand along the way. They have been cooking for just over 400 hours now. Prior to 360 hours, there was a blatantly discernible difference when I swapped in the single burned in demo cord, replacing just one of my three new cords in my system. Yes, the difference was night and day. I have to admit, even though I firmly believe in burn in from my past experiences (or perceptions if you prefer, I consider both terms to apply to my subjective experience), I had started to wonder if something else was at play that would explain the difference I was hearing between the new and burned in cord as of 360 hours and prior. I was wondering if maybe the design had changed, tolerances were coming into play, etc. But thankfully my new cord sounds equivalent to the burned in demo cord now. That is to say (here come the SUBJECTIVE descriptors) that it is more open and relaxed, the images are more solidly defined, there is a more relaxed soundstage which means that there is more depth and layering, and there is more unconstrained high frequency detail coming through, in a relaxed and gentle manner (e.g. decay on subtle cymbals are more defined now and trail off in a more 3D space without the sense that the brakes are being pumped). There is less of a sense of restraint overall, and also I am hearing more resolution, seemingly due to less noise. All in my head? I was on a hike on the weekend and we passed a guy who said to his companion “Point to a tree and I’ll prove to you that it doesn’t truly exist.” Not sure what the context was and unfortunately I didn’t stick around to hear his “proof”. But at a certain point I need to have faith in my subjective perception of the difference between the burned in and new power cords.
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I am far from an expert on this, but for those that believe that science simply doesn’t support cable break-in, consider this: The electrical signal is a flow of free electrons in the valence shell of the copper (one example) atoms. It’s a physical flow of matter. Because electrons are free to move relative to the nucleus of the atom it’s not unreasonable to think that the flow of electrons could alter things in the cable. I am thinking that any interfaces in the cable could mesh/blend over time resulting in a different flow of electrons. The connections would be a place where this could matter most and why people experience a break-in period when reconnecting cables My experience with cable break-in is very limited, but this is a physical phenomenon that happens with cables. To quote myth busters, plausible at minimum.
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knownothing, Thank you for your comments. I believe that the negative cable break in comments come from people who have not really ventured down the Audiophile trail seeking the best in sound quality. Some just seem like angry people... The AQ Thunderbirds did surprise me in their break in evolvement. I spoke to AQ and they say it does take many hours to break in, regardless of their technology. ozzy |
@ozzy thanks for sharing your experience with cable break in. I have found similar results with pretty much every kind of cable used in my systems, and it is a given when I build new power cables that I let them burn in for weeks before serious evaluation. I do find it interesting that you found such dramatic difference with AQ interconnects designed with both FEP air-tube dialectriics and equipped with DBS. Both of these design features as I understand them are intended to reduce dialectric effects on signal transmission and to keep the cable in a “warm” state, reducing impacts on sound from prolonged disuse. Clearly more is going on here with break in, in your experience, and these design features may reduce but not eliminate the benefits of break in for AQ Thunderbird interconnects. kn |
It is interesting that several of the folks posting here with a critical view of cable break in, and of premium cables in general, have very few total posts on Agon. And if you look at their post record, many (and in some cases, all) previous posts express cable skepticism. I can only surmise that these members are sincerely on a mission to set us all straight regarding our beliefs that cables are in fact an important and improvable component, they are trolls, they represent forum ‘leakage’ from ASR, or all three. What they are not is tremendously convincing. kn |
