Burn in period

@pesky_wabbit 

+1. 
 

Measuring… forget it, your ears can clearly distinguish the difference. You would have to put together a pretty significant scientific study to isolate the parameters an measure them. But listening is simple and obvious.

burn in time depends more on the dielectric than the conductor material. Teflon takes a long time. If you don‘t believe it take a set of interconnects with 500-1000 hrs on them and A/B them against a fresh set..

Some manufacturers will give you expected timeframes. No idea as to their accuracy.‘

ignore the armchair theorists

Burn in claimed time in hrs = return policy in hrs  ^ 2 + ( warranty * 3/7) 😂

No. Plain physics/electronics The signal is AC, so if there  was a dielectric change, it would be immediately degaussed.  The exception is if you have some DC offset.  If you do, you need to repair your equipment.  Different matter. 

There are cables that sustain an electric charge on the dielectric, but I don't think you are talking about that.

Now directionality.  The only way any cable can be directional is if there is a compensation network to match the side on the equipment in question.  Otherwise it sounds like you have taken salesmen or advertising seriously. Most of them do not get it, but they'll sell you a silver teflon special plug cable that makes you feel good.  For a while.

I’m surprised that I’ve never seen a video where someone puts a microphone in front of the speakers with new cables, measures the frequency response and then does it again when the cables are broken in. I’ve heard some pretty big changes after break in, which I would think would have to show up somewhere in the speaker output spectrum. Maybe everyone’s been measuring in the wrong place. As Amir is so fond of saying - we don’t stick the wire in our ear and listen. All that matters is what comes out of the speaker. 

🤣🤣

@rocray unless you are an earthworm.

Poop is definitely directional. 

Will it make a difference if the asparagus is raw or cooked?  Will it smell the same  when you take a leak if you eat the pointy end of the asparagus first?

I’ll get right on that.

@rifraf4u Cool. If you would like, feel free to PM me and we can arrange for you to send me some of your cables. I can place them on my cable cooker and then send them back to you for you to test. Nothing to lose right?

I really wish it wasn’t because it’s a PITA, and you don’t know what they’re going to end up sounding like and whether you’re going to end up liking them kong term,

I can’t stand dynamically restricted cables, and you don’t get the full macro and micro dynamic repertoire straight off the bat. Fact.

What do you mean what would I measure? I would measure the frequency response from a logarithmic sweep signal from 20hz to 20khz from each cable and compare to see, if in fact, there is a difference.

I'm developing a yugebohner just talking about assparagus!

LOVE the handle!

I use XLR on everything that I can and on the few RCA cables the are marked for direction so that's how I put them,breaking period is a real thing that I have experienced over the years with anything in the electrical path.What cracks me up the ones who disagree with break in period the will take a cable or a fuse to a friends and pop it in and can't hear any difference.I had 2 different cables that I had been swapping out so they both were broken in which they sounded pretty good so after about a half year or so latter I did the swap and the cable that sat for that period didn't even come close to the one in use because it need to be broken in again.One of the You Tubers said he will put in a new power cord and if he hears no difference so he pulls it right out,but his friends who bring them over have had it broken in in their system and hear the difference.Fuse break in differs with going from orange to purple in pre and phono amps at first didn't sound as good as a broken in orange but a couple weeks of normal listening big difference in sound so I did the same swap with my mono amps nothing sounded better so I switch directions on both figuring they need break in time but was I wrong it was a wow moment everything sounded a lot better but the highs still needed a little more time but they got there.Break in on electronics and anything in it path on my system is real and on my fuses which I doubted directional did make a big difference and amps fuses break in faster then other equipment.

things that get hot, especially things that glow, will change with use, thus burn in. Materials do not change appreciably at room temperature or with the relatively tiny currents put through them by generating music.

If a manufacturer is designing components (other than tubes) in a power supply, amplifier circuit , or especially a low power component such as a DAC to get hot, then that component is probably not for me. I guess some amplifiers might sometimes be an exception here (high currents) but preferably not.

Copper is not directional. To make a wire directional you have to add electronic components.  If a cable is shielded and grounded only on one end (a good way to avoid ground loops), it might be better to ground on the source end...but if both components are grounded to the same circuit, it really shouldn't matter.

Saying that a component needs "burn in" is a way of saying "listen to it a while before you return it" that sounds like it has a reason behind it.

Jerry

LOL...so what do you suggest be measured? Additionally, isnt it up to you to prove scientifically that the effect that if it measures the same but sounds different cant be? If you are convinced cables don't make a difference, that differences in electronics cant be heard when they "measure" the same and that breakin cant be real, why not return to ASR?

@ghasley , but in the end it doesn't really matter - does it... if you have gained additional joy/pleasure through your investment in cables, subjective or objective, you did gain said joy. 

@ghasley, you could take objective measurements using REW or similar and post them here. Before and after. That would then be more like a science instead of subjective bias. 

@rifraf4u @jetter 

Rifraf, its cool if you believe its marketing hype. Whats kind of funny is I was once in your camp. Whether its because I was once a cable denier or whether its because I upgraded my components over time and the system became more resolving or it may be that I finally happened upon the proper wire/system synergies or any number of other explanations....doesnt really matter to me. I have experienced it and its real. I have, however, avoided these kinds of threads because there is literally nothing that can be communicated to you that would convince you to even have an open mind and to try it for yourself. If it makes no difference in your system then so be it. People do get wound up though when they are certain something cant possibly be true...

Jetter, to me, having a cable cooker may be the only true way to determine differences, given our aural memory and how unreliable it is. To those out there who are certain breakin isnt real, a cable cooker provides an opportunity for a pretty quick A/B test. Cable companies should have a loaner program or when someone buys a new set of cables, send two pair of identical serialized cables. One cooked, one not. You will hear the difference.

As I stated earlier, I dont have a vested interest in anyone believing in breakin. Couldnt care less. But just because rifraf or others havent experienced it for themselves doesnt mean it isnt real.

I clearly hear the difference in cables sound after they have been in my system for what we refer to as the "break in or burn in period".

Like others, I cannot explain it. But I still believe that it is our ears/minds that are breaking in and becoming familiarized with the sound, and it has nothing to do with the wire itself.

I wonder if persons who have cable cookers hear any change in sound at all after they put a fully cooked set of wires into their systems?

@ghasley, while speakers (because of a moving part) might be considered to have a burn in period- it is generally known to be short - like minutes - and usually accomplished in the factory during QA. I agree that tubes also have a 'burn' in period - but they are a continuous burn down period till failure. As for solid state, cables, et al - I think it's marking bull - and designed generally to invoke what is known as the Ikea Effect (look it up). 

Show me some measurements with REW or similar to back up your claims otherwise.

@rifraf4u and others.

I was once a break in denier. I’m pretty pragmatic and I dont get too emotional one way or the other. In short, Im not invested in any particular camp. There are multiple explanations, some of which may or may not be measurable.

Electronics and tubes. These are thermal in nature and vary in duration. If you dont believe in it, thats cool. You have to admit that if you place a piece of gear in your system new, straight out of the box then it will sound better once its warmed up to operating temperature right. Well certain parts reach that temperature more slowly and retain/dissipate heat at differing durations. I’m not a believer in hundreds of hours being necessary for the gear to reach equilibrium but its real.

Speakers need breakin. It might take minutes, hours or days depending on the physical properties of the drivers as well as the type and complexity of the crossover components. Additionally, most home users dont break something in at sufficient volumes for a sufficient duration. Its tough to push enough voltage or current for sustained times that accomplish the task. Thats why one user reports that they sounded great after 10 hours while another may say 100. What temperature is optimal vs what is the ambient temp vs volume and type of breakin track. I was told by a dealer I trust that a pair of speakers I had needed 500 hours. After about that long, the speakers still sounded marginal to me. I admit I dont play loudly and I just cant imagine why that wasnt a sufficient amount of time. Skeptic that I am, I chose to go in a different direction and the dealer took them back. They broke them in for more hours and are thrilled with them. I believe in speaker break in because there is no way anyone with ears would have tolerated them otherwise. Similar electronics in my system as the new owner. My bad.

Cables, most of us dont pump enough voltage through them to break them in sufficiently. I thought it was voodoo. I bought a cable cooker to see. I had multiple sets of interconnects, cooked half of them, placed some in my system. Started with one channel of my system and had a friend install them with me out of the room. One channel from source through the amp and then I came in and listened. It was apparent from the first note, one channel sounded much better and the other much worse. One channel was playing with more ease, dynamics, tone and texture that I was pretty certain something was wrong with installation or gear adjustments. The next test/validation was a trick on me by my friend. I installed the complete set of cables that had been cooked and left the room to go to my garage to get something, came back to my listening room and we began to listen. Immediately I was struck by the fact that one channel was sounding bad in comparison. I began checking connections and shut down the system to check tubes, etc. He then burst out laughing…while I was out of the room, he had switched one channel back to uncooked cables without my knowledge.

Now, you can believe its real or not, doesnt much matter to me. Im not into tweaks, you wont see cable elevators or contact enhancer or funky fuses around my place. Breakin is real, the sufficient duration though can be debated.

I would love to know the point in time when this concept of cable 'break-in' was foisted upon the audio public. Was it a bunch of guys in a marketing meeting, guffawing over the idea, or was it an r and d situation where a eureka moment occurred? I myself can't remember cable break-in even being a subject before about the year 2010. Anyone got a handle on the idea's history?

Burn in is largely bull. Purely preached  by marketers to leverage your unconscious bias.

Love the comments! Hilarious. I am not sure about cables having to “break in” to sound their best. It could be simply that it’s our ears & mind getting accustomed to the new sound?? No doubt cables of all types in a system sound differently from brand to brand & model to model & of course the law of “diminishing returns” applies greatly to this. 
 

For those of you who think cables don’t need to “break in” to sound their best, explain why most amps sound much better after they’re warmed up for an hour or two? I’ll bet they would measure the same from the moment you turn them on. Rogers tub integrated amp is a very well made, high quality product & I’ve noticed even after it’s warmed up that the sound changes when it’s playing for  a few songs.  That said, I’m also using new speaker wire….. life’s mysteries…..

Another excuse for our resident know nothing blowhard to bloviate.

This thread is like internet porn for people with less than 50 posts.

@lordmelton - I'm pretty sure speakers (drivers) are powered by ac current.  It's my understanding that the plus from your amp provides an AC signal to the speakers.  The signal travels through the speakers back to the minus terminal, which is ground.  Electrically, it would probably be more accurate to call these terminals hot (or +/-) and neutral.  However, if I understand how transformers and capacitors work, audio signal can only be AC and goes from positive to negative; hence, the flow (current) switches direction.    

Undoubtedly there are people who can hear their equipment or cables break in. To me however it stays a mysterious phenomenon.

Take a cable ... it has no arrows on, it has no direction. And audio is an AC signal so there’s no direction there either. That can’t have anything to do with it.

Chemical properties ... they could change over time. Yes, that can be a reason. But hey ... we’re talking about copper, or silver, or gold, not much to change there. And even if so, I always ask myself how come after the first 100 hours the sound always gets better? Statistically chances would be 50 / 50 that the sound gets worse ... I never hear someone about that. Just a fun fact.

Could it also be that it is a strategy to give oneself peace of mind? Suppose someone just bought expensive cables and ... oops ... there’s no clear audible difference with the old ones. Oh ... wait ... yes ... after 100 hours of breaking in they sound a lot better. Saying that to yourself will make you feel better, even if no one else hears what you hear.

Wait ... my new USB3 cable just broke in ... o yes, the picture on my PC monitor is much clearer now!

@wgh64 Hi, only the power cables handle AC all your other cables are DC.

You are correct AC switches back and forth but voltage is the potential difference which means it's higher on the mains side than the input (component) side. Otherwise it couldn't flow and make things work.

I LOVE blue food.. blue soup… scrambled eggs…” We love Bridget, just the way you are”. 

Your favorite food is blue?

I love how other people can tell me what I can,and cannot hear.  Please tell me what my favorite food is as well. 

Isn't audio signal an AC current?  Directional?  explain please.  

@yugebohner 

hahaha I was waiting for someone to pick up and further development on my asparagus post.

I do hear difference when cables broken in or equipment burned in, but my cousin who is top notch physicist with bunch of patents in signal traveling area of physics including space staff and lasers laughs at me when I mention cable beak up problem, however he agreed with equipment burning in necessity.

I wanted to add, I saw a show on building transformers, I think it was transformers. The first thing they did was find the correct direction for the coil wire before feeding it to the winding machine. So it must have some validity even if it's not audible. 

When a cable wire is formed it's drawn through a die. This aligns the metal in a certain direction so this is why manufacturers believe cables are directional.

They should follow the way they were formed/forged.

Hope this helps.

I have no clue. I use good cables and I tweak my system using the cables that sound best but I have not been able to hear directionality. A lot of my cables are marked so I just put them in the direction the manufacturer recommends.

If you like asparagus eat it. If your piss smells keep your head out of the toilet. If you can hear a difference then it’s not a myth…To you ! So stay out of the toilet drop the coin and enjoy your music… Simple !

Cheers 

Titleist golf balls are best because they pay most pros a lot of bread to claim so.  Gravity is the main factor affecting golf balls.  What force of nature is making electric signals sound different because they are not following the arrows on a cable?

@golferjw FFS Man you've been a member here for 19 years and now you decide to ask this question. Why are Titleist golf balls the best? Why can't I hit the ball 300 yds anymore?

@audphile1 but asparagus piss smells because asparagus has more ?manganese?, or whatever the mineral/chemical may be, and you can test and measure said piss and present your quantifiable results to the person who can’t smell their asparagus piss, and you can say listen you idiot, this chemical is 50x higher in your urine than it normally is. That’s because you just ate asparagus. Based on x randomized controlled studies over populations of n, 999999/1000000 say asaparagus piss smells like asparagus piss. If the person says nope I don’t believe it! then chances are, that person is either a flatearther fool spitting in the face of science or is just being difficult.  Only difference between the smell refuser and mr directionalcablez is the guy who refuses to believe his piss smells is not out thousands of dollars like mr cablez.  

If you can’t hear any difference in sound from a high quality cable freshly installed in a good system, to the same cable and system after a couple of hundred hours, it just means your ears aren’t as sensitive as someone who can. Different people need different glasses prescriptions to see the same things as clearly as each other. Opticians have sophisticated measuring devices to get you the right prescription. We don’t have the equivalent for hearing, well, not unless you need hearing aids.

First of all… hearing is subjective so of course the ear can be fooled.  

Second of all, wires and electronics do need a period to get warmed up. Electricity flowing through wires is no difference.  Just use your ears and you can hear a difference over time.

Finally, No one says it is the most important aspect, and the gear will have a much greater impact. So just spend reasonably and don’t blow your budget.  There are no absolutes and just have fun. 

It's not the signal, it's the medium. E.g. the crystal orientation in copper.

Why would wire be directional when AC moves back and forth?

Why would wire be directional when AC moves back and forth?