Hello Almarg,
Thank you so much for your thoughts. I was once a heavy blues Rock n' Roller, but today I mostly listen to symphonic classical, London, Living Stereo, Decca, Telarc, etc., music from the movies, plus smaller chamber music, Jazz, 40s-50s male-female vocals such as Ella Fitzgerald, Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington type groups, accoustic folk, and a fair bit unusual groups similar to Loreena Mckinnet, Dead Can Dance, Mediterraen instruments. Of course I stll play Muddy Waters, Howlin' Wolf and the like, Harry Belafonte, Sinatra, Martin and similar.
Daedalus is on my short list along with DeVore Orangutang 0/96, Line Magnetic WE 755, Coincident, Tannoy Prestige Line and do on.
Best, Rob |
Rob,
I have the Daedalus DA-RMa's. I don't listen at headbanger levels, but I drove mine fine with a 2.5-3 wpc 45 SET amp, in a fairly large room with an arced opening in the rear.
Many like higher powered (high current) amps with Lou's speakers, but I've been extremely happy driving them with SET amps. Currently using a 2A3 amp and it never even struggles.
Best,
Randy |
Hi Al,
Given your primary music genre of large scale symphonic orchestra and chosen listening levels, you made a good amplifier choice. I know the VAC REN 30/30 and 70/70 well. The loudest I've had my Frankenstein was 95-100 db for some Doors and a Neil Young recording. Highest peak was 105 db during an Art Blakey drum solo on a T. Monk CD(that I cranked up) (C weighted/fast setting). Those occasions are rare for me. Usually I'm listening at an average of 75-83 db SPL. So most of the time my listening power output range of the amp is well under 1 watt(actually fractions of 1 watt). I sit 10 feet away from the speakers. So 8 watts is plenty for my particular needs.
Al you are right, having a speaker with a high load impedance is clearly an advantage for my SET amplifier.
Charles, |
Randy,
You results aren't surprising to me. I know that Lou personally seems to prefer SS with his speakers. I've heard Daedalus models driven by big SS amps and tube amplifiers as well. IMO his speakers sound noticeably better with tube power amps. So I can imagine you and Al are getting very good results with your respective systems. |
Hi Rob,The Line Magnetic W.E.755 field coil speaker has always caught my attention. I get the feeling that speaker with a good SET could be something really wonderful. If you get a chance to hear it let us know your impression of it. I definitely trust your ears.
Thanks, |
Thanks everyone.
Rrsclyde, thanks for that info.
Charles, on one of my trips to NYC and/or Los Angeles, I'm going to set up appointments to hear the Line Magnetic 755 Field Coil. I will absolutely write my impressions here. I also really enjoyed the VAC the times I heard them, also 30/30. Best all, Rob |
Hey, Folks, Well, I checked a few of the possible culprits that Brian suggested (for example, did I have the correct model output transformers?) and things looked okay. So I decided, with Brian's encouragement, to bring the amp to a local tech for troubleshooting. Mike, my go-to guy in the past at Austin Stereo Service, didn't want to work on the kit, or on kits in general these days (although he once checked over my Bottlehead Seduction photo stage). He's busy right now with lots of '70's and '80's transistor gear, turntables and so forth. He suggested I go to Telstar Services. I called them and they said that as long as they had schematics and build instructions they'd be happy to troubleshoot the amp. So I dropped it off. Typical deal: you pay a bench test/diagnostic fee which they apply to the repair if you have them do it. I have to admit to feeling like a bit of a loser taking the amp to a tech after all the work I've put into it. But at this point the prospect of sorting through all the possible problems is just too daunting, plus I figure they've got the scopes and proper testing equipment to make shorter work of it. I printed out the schematics and wiring diagrams. So, there you go. I miss my music! It's silly but I'm really bummed out by not having a working system, which is probably an indicator of just how musically engaging things have been with this amp. I've come to think of it as a "beauty machine." Also, as someone said earlier in the thread, when you build a kit like this, you really get attached to it. More than a purchase or possession it's kind of "your baby." Anyway, I think I'm in for some real magic when the amp's completely up to spec. Hope they sort this out quickly! By the way, Brian encouraged me to give the techs his phone numbers in case they had questions. Great guy! |
I'm wondering if it could be something as simple as a tube issue. At this point probably best to have someone with the right equipment check it out.
If the tech can determine or if an can specify I would wonder again about the output impedance of the amp and if to spec. Distortion levels into the same load speaker could be higher if output impedance is higher. Of course could be anything. Will stay tuned. 👀 |
Map,
Brian was going to ship me some replacement tubes in case it was a tube issue but UPS returned it to him for some reason. It'll be interesting to see if the tech finds a bad tube. |
Rebbi,
Did you like the sound of the Tekton Katz?
It appears that Morricab(Audio Asylum) was correct regarding the beauty of De Capo with a SET amplifier. I'm very curious to see what the tech finds wrong with your amplifier. Could be something quite simple. This has been a very good thread. Very interesting and with mature behavior displayed. I appreciate the absence of trolls, drama queens and pissing contests (what a relief).
Charles, |
Charles,
As for the lack of drama in the thread, yes, I appreciate that as well. "Real life" provides enough of that already! Here we ought to enjoy ourselves, learn new things from each other and help each other out. (Come to think of it, we should be doing more of that in real life, too.)
As for the Katz Meow's, I got a kick out of hearing them. And it was very generous of sebrof to drag them up a flight of stairs with me to put them into his main rig. (He has a great listening space, by the way.)
First of all, I really liked the look. They are a lot more diminutive than I'd expected; kind of "cute," really! And those shiny, white, Fostex 8-inch'ers look very sharp against the matte black cabinet.
I'm also very intrigued to see how Eric's design philosophy has evolved. You see a theme there: the wide range driver supplemented by the super tweeter. But he put the tweeter in a separate housing up top, stepped back for time alignment. I have to imagine this was more expensive and involved to produce than his current, rectangular cabinets but I'm wondering why he dropped time alignment as I believe (from my experience with the De Capo's and that fact that Israel Blume employs it in the Coincident TE II's) that it has real benefits.
So I think sebrof has the 2.0 version. I've looked at Internet photos of version 3.0 and it featured a series of slotted ports down the front of the cabinet. Interesting. I don't remember where sebrof's are ported, perhaps he can chime in.
As for the sound, I was under some time pressure to get back to work so we plunked them down in front of all his other gear (which is amazing, by the way) so they weren't getting any boundary reinforcement. All that's to say that I was rushed and we couldn't place them carefully and ideally.
That said, I found what I heard to be very good; incisive and clear with great tone. But that's really as far as I could get. I'd like to spend more time with them or another Tekton design in an environment where we could tweak placement to the nth degree.
Let me also compliment sebrof on his Tube Audio Lab 2A3 kit. It sounds really sweet. |
Rebbi,
To me you didn't seem that open to Tekton during the thread so of course I'm happy you got to hear a pair even if not the latest incarnation. You really owe it to yourself to hear the Lore or M-lore if you must change from DeCapo. I get the impression you didn't believe or trust Tim Smith (6moons) Scott Hull (part-time-audiophile) Robinson and others from Enjoy The Music, the Positive Feedback, Stereomojo stuff, Awards from publications, or first-hand experience from some folks on this thread. Granted, there are many fine speakers out there; but not that many quality brands with high efficiency and benevolent impedance for low-powered tube, especially SET at 8 watts at less than $2,000 with a bottom end that extends to below 40hz. Also, I don't normally
push as hard as I did for a particular speaker because one begins to sound like a one-note pony, perhaps with a connection to the company, or you sound like salesman. If you had six thousand bucks or more my recommendation might be different. Maybe not. As Enjoy the Music and other reviewers have pointed out, for example, the Tekton Pendragon can go head-to-head with $20,000 speakers. I believe I gave you an honest assessment from my point of view and your equipment choice/budget. I'm gonna' try hard not to mention Tekton again as this thread continues... |
"We should be doing more of that in real life, too" - Rebbi
Hear, here! |
Hi Rob,
Maybe it's just my interpretation but It seems that Rebbi was receptive to the idea of getting the Lores(he reached out to Eric). Of that may be a moot point once his amp is sorted out. |
Charles and Mikirob,
Yes, I am still totally open to and interested in Tekton. A speaker that efficient that might give me something like another 7 or 8 Hz on the bottom end is very appealing. And as I said, sebrof's speakers (although I know they are smaller than the Lore, but not that much smaller) were far more petite and decor-friendly then I would have imagined.
I do trust all those reviewers who love Eric's products. As a matter fact, Tim Smith and I corresponded a bit, not about speakers but about my issues with my amplifier versus the Dynamo that he was so fond of. He also thought that the Audio Note Kit 1 was a great choice  he has heard that gear at shows and has loved it. I think Tim is located in Canada and Brian Smith had a room at the Toronto show this past year that was very, very highly reviewed.
As I mentioned, I have also spoken with Eric twiceand in both cases was very impressed with his knowledge and his graciousness.
My first step is to get the Kit 1 healthy and then I should have a much better idea how it partners with the the capital's. As I said earlier, I was hearing A LOT of magic even with the amp in its current state, so I am very interested to hear how it sounds when it is working completely properly. |
Sorry, posted that previous comment prematurely. I also meant to say that even if my current speakers sound even more marvelous with my healthy, fixed up amp, I may still give one of Eric's speakers a whirl if I can be certain I can take the financial hit if I decide to return them. I think he charges a restocking fee, does he not? So I would be on the hook for that as well as for the return shipping.
By the way, Rob, talk about Tekton all you want  I really don't mind, I swear! :-) |
Rebbi, Charles,
Understand. I think I thought I was beating a dead horse, glad the recommendation was well considered. Great that you had correspondence with Tim Smith, Eric and so forth. Rebbi, I think you made a superlative choice with the AN Kit-1. I believe everyone on thread was civil, attempting to be helpful. Great thread. Best. |
I have had some off corespondence with Tim and I think highly of his reviewing skills. He has a good ear and taste IMO. I think our listening preferences are very similar, his frequent references to jazz guitar chords and harmony I completely understand. His comments regarding sound heard at the Toronto show mirror mine per CES visits over the years. Ultra priced products don't always equal better sound quality. I agree with him that some of the lesser known,less costly rooms have the better music reproduction sometimes. Anyway his recommendations would get my attention. |
Rebbi - If you still want to hear my Tektons in your space after you get your amp sorted out I'm certain that can be arranged...just let me know. |
Smith certainly got my attention. I believe he is among the best Reviewers out there, extremely complete and thorough. That Coincident review was so right on to these ears. I ultimately, after much listening, switched my preference from the Sylvania 6SL7 WGT Mil Spec to the RCA Red Base 5691. His Tekton, Wall of Sound review was frankly, another well written accurate piece of review journalism. Kudos! |
Sebrof, you are a kind person, kudos to you too!
Charles, all you state is true. The small guys that create superb products in audio have a huge upward climb. Many can't afford to a attend the major shows or place ads in publications. In the small shops like Eric's, who builds the speakers and runs the business while you're gone? Any small mis-step can ruin these types of company. |
Rebbi, I hope your problem turns out to be just a tube, that being the ideal, then it wouldn't have been something you've done.
I'm going to have to bite the bullet myself, and send my Class D Audio amp back to them to fix a screw-up of mine. I enlarged the solder holes in the amp module for LED's that go on the front of the amp. I haven't been able to get them going (I removed all of the conductor traces around the hole when I drilled, duh! I've been trying to fix it, but no dice). The amp still works though, and sounds great.
Tom, at Class D said send it back in he'll fix it for free. I use it as back-up to the SET 300B. I can't recommend Class D Audio highly enough, their CDA amps sound amazing, and work great in the case of tube failure, you still have tunes, and at a very reasonable price.
Hope your AN returns soon, with a clean bill of health.
Regards,
Dan |
Dan ,
First watt SS, 300b SET and class D. Different flavors for your Tannoys, I'm sure you're having a ball.😃😃
Charles, |
Rebbi, I spent a little while looking at the photo of the underside of the chassis of your build, which you provided on the "Finishing Touches" page of your blog, looking for anything amiss that might account for the problem. Although it's hard to tell from the photo, the one thing I question is the value of the 3.3K resistors which connect to the grids of each of the 300B's. I can't reconcile the color code bands appearing on the resistors in the photo with that value. The band that appears to be gold in color, at the end of each resistor closest to the top of the photo, would correspond to the +/- tolerance, which is unimportant. Reading the other bands upwards from the bottom, though, I would expect to most likely see orange-orange-black-brown, or (less likely) just three bands colored orange-orange-red. It appears, though, that the band just below the tolerance band is black, which would correspond to a much lower resistance value. If the resistor value is much lower than the 3.3K the design calls for, it could very well account for the symptoms you've described, due to a lack of what is called "grid stopping". (See especially the paragraph near the bottom which begins with "The main reason for limiting grid-current is to reduce blocking distortion"). Also, regarding the possibility of a defective tube, fwiw I'll mention that based on a look at the schematic it appears that the only tubes which can affect both channels are the 6SN7 input tube, and the 5U4/274B rectifier. Best regards, -- Al |
Almarg,
Can you be more specific where in the photo you are looking? Is this on the hard wired TAG strip or elsewhere?
Thanks!! |
Yes, the two green colored resistors going from the TAG strip to each of the 300B sockets.
-- Al |
Oh, well. I just found the more detailed photos here, in which the resistors can clearly be seen to be correct (orange-orange-black-brown). Strange that they look so different in the less detailed photo. Never mind :-) Best regards, -- Al |
Just a reminder to all that when one builds their own gear - it is hugely important to measure each resistor, capacitor to make sure it is the correct value BEFORE installing it into the circuit. Two reasons for doing this are: Making sure the correct part is going into the correct position and the other - once a part is soldered into the circuit in many cases it will no longer measure its value correctly. So once a part is in the circuit especially capacitors, they will need to be removed from the circuit to make sure they are not defective. |
Charles, point of fact, the Class D amp is so good, I sold the First Watt M2. And loving it.
Regards,
Dan |
Jetrexpro:
Yes, next kit, for sure, I'll test each part! |
Dan,
I'd never heard of those Class D kits. Holy cow, they're cheap! You could build one on a lark just to compare it, and, as you said, have a backup. And with that kind of wattage they'll drive anything. Never loved my Bel Canto Class D amp all that much but for $300 how bad can one of these be? |
Dan I echo your comments about the class d amps. I have one and it is one of the best audio bargains out there. |
Yep, the thing is blowing me away. I had no idea what to expect, but when I send it away to fix my mess-up, I will miss it.
I expected a sterile, cold sound, it is anything but cold and sterile sounding. This is really going to sound heretical, but it sounds a lot like my SET 300B with much more power.
Class D has come of age.
My apologies to Rebbi for usurping his thread.
Regards,
Dan |
Dan,
No apologies needed. Topic drift makes the world go 'round. :-) |
Dan,
Besides, if you can build a high powered amp that captures some of the SET magic for under $300, I think we'd all be interested. |
Another class d fanboy here. 👍👍 |
Technician seems to be zeroing in on the issue. Amp not putting out anywhere near its rated power. May be a tube issue. Very interesting. Brian in contact with the technician. New tubes coming. More later.
Again, can't wait to hear the amp at full operating strength! |
I really like this thread and following all the drama. I can't wait to see what happens next! |
"Again, can't wait to hear the amp at full operating strength!"
I am most interested as well Rebbi. If it is tube issue or something else with the amp that could be remedied that would allow you to keep the Decapos and find musical bliss with all music. What an ideal outcome that would be! |
Tubegroover,
It's definitely an issue with the amp, but the question is what. Brian and the tech are on it.
Some signs point right now to a bad tube but we'll see. Technician said the driver stage looked good but the output stage wasn't delivering full power, which would certainly account for the clipping.
He also said it was a very neat build! :-D
Nice to think it's not something I screwed up, but we'll see. |
Rebbi you may not have hear this amp at full tube capacity. You may be in for a pleasant surprise. |
Jwm,
That is certainly what I am expecting/hoping! |
Erndog, Agree! It is almost to the point of fine literature, at this point. Still not sure if it is a tragedy or a comedy (in the classical sense.) As for me, I'm sensing some unexpected turns leading to a happy ending. |
I keep returning to this thread to see how it ends. Fun thread. |
As the drama builds seriously consider an upgrade to the Psvane Black Treasure 300b tube. Now only about $284.00 a pair. But first, listen to what you have, enjoy. Can't wait. |
Mikirob,
I am really enjoying my Kit 1 10th Anniversary, but I often wonder what a different set of 300b tubes would do to the sound. I really can't afford the Emmission Labs, or some of the other recommended candidates at the present time, but like any audio type guy, I wonder. It still sounds wonderful as-is.
Rebbi, I hope this is all resolved for you very soon, and I hope that it makes the amp a good match for the De Capos. |
Just got an email from Brian with a tracking number. He is sending the technician replacement tubes for everything but the 300 B's. He's also sending along a couple of 300 B bypass capacitors in case those are bad, along with, I think, a replacement power supply PCB just in case. He's also got detailed instructions for the technician about step-by-step testing instructions to take. I'm very impressed by Brian's email. He not only sells these kits, but he clearly has a deep understanding of how they work.
Anyway, I should have some more news tomorrow and I will update all of you.
Yes, lots of drama, huh? I'm going to try to sell the rights to Netflix For a miniseries, as long as they get someone much better looking to play the part of me. ;-) |
The name for the mini series should be "Rebbi's Audiophile Adventures." Hehehe
I love this hobby!
We're all rooting for you Rebbi! |
Roxy54,
You're right, the EML 300b tubes aren't cheap. I find them to be an absolute value given their superb sound. If you ever come across a used pair I would strongly urge you to buy them. I believe you'd love the EML XLS in your fine amplifier.
Charles, |
I see this more as a radio program than as a TV miniseries. |
