Reb if it were me and I wanted to take my best shot to hit the bullseye now on paper I'd have to splurge for the co incidents. Screw the matching stands that's mostly aesthetics. They are designed to work with an amp like yours and should fit your room nicely. If it does not happen with those and your amp then either time to move on again to another approach. It should be the perfect match. On paper at least. Tektons will probably resolve your clipping issue and sound good and preserve some funds but I would want to see more impedance and phase info before I would be confident that the mating is truly as good as it might be. |
A system moves one.....a complete system. No one piece of gear can move someone as it makes no sound on its own:) I know this is profound, but hey.
It is quality not quantity that is most important. When you can have both you have massive quality or something like that. |
Rebbi, note that the price of the Triumph Extreme II is indicated as being in Canadian dollars, while the price of the stands is indicated as being in US dollars. If those prices are accurate, at current exchange rates the total cost of both be $3400 in US dollars.
Best regards,
-- Al
|
Meant to say "would be," of course, not "be."
Best regards,
-- Al |
It is harder to achieve quality on a larger scale than a small one no doubt.
My system is designed around the speakers which require quality on a somewhat larger scale. I've found a good modern class d amp to be a game changer in regards to accomplishing that. It is very efficient and very green. I cant find a fault with the performance. What it sounds like depends mostly on what it is fed. |
Brownsfan has the Triumph Extreme MK II and the De Capo along with an 8 watt SET. He says the Coincident Triumph is superb in his system. He is a very astute listener with much insight and experience . |
Bill,
"Massive quality" I like that! |
Charles and Rebbi, I love the triumph extreme IIs driven by the 300b Frankensteins. They are very different speakers than the deCapos. Rebbi loves his deCapos. The coincident speakers may not be to his liking. I think buying used or with an in home addition is the way to go. |
Brownsfan, I believe, has both the DeCapos (Rebbi's) model as well as the Coincident Triumph, hopefully he chimes in and sheds some light from personal experience.
Mapman, the Tektons have no weird impedance dips, like dropping to 2ohms. It remains stable, never less than 6ohms. Did you read any of the reviews? Or my first-hand comments about the Tektons?
Tektons certainly don't enjoy ad-driven hype or Polo like labels; they just perform, and perform well with SS or low-SET. |
Mil I read a few things on the Tektons and lore specifically but did not see any impedance or phase charts. Can you provide a link? |
Brownsfan,
Can you characterize some of the differences between the Triumph Extremes and the De Capo's?
Thanks! |
Mapman,
No, I've said all I am going to say about Tekton. It's a great speaker that will be overlooked by many. Too bad, go pay a few thousand more and good luck. Best. |
Mik.
TEktons might well be the ticket. DEfinitely high value and a reasonable fit it would seem for most any case. Plus not much risk to try. I would consider those myself. On paper. the Coincident just seems to be designed specifically for the task at hand, which is a good omen for good performance at least up front, but there is more to it than that. One must listen to know. Does Coincident offer a home trial/satisfaction guarantee? That would certainly help. |
I spoke with Israel Blume of Coincident. The Triumph Extreme is designed to have both extremely high sensitivity and extremely flat impedance across the entire frequency band. It is designed for SET, he told me.
There's no home trial. It's US $3000, delivered. |
Reb, I think you have all the relevant info available to decide. Some more detailed impedance/phase info on specific Tektons would be useful but not needed to save some money perhaps. Or go with what seems best on paper for more. Or try something else. The balls in your court to decide at this point I think. What you have ain't so bad for now it seems so take your time. |
One other thing that might be useful to know is the output impedance of the AN amp. I'm asuming it is fairly high being a SET but do not know for sure. The higher that is the greater the chance that impedance swings in the speaker, even if not problematic, will affect the tonality of the results. Impedance curve info would then provide a clue in regards to how that tonality is likely to balance out prior to actual hearing. its at least a systematic approach to help predict the results beforehand. Flat impedance curve > 8ohm definitley suggests a design intended for SET. But of course a robust design alone does not assure one will like the sound, but it is at minimum an indicator of good performance together which is a good starting point. |
If you are serious about the Triumphs, I would press Israel for a better price as he rarely sells his product for full MSRP, especially since he is factory direct.
The one thing that bothers me about Coincident speakers is the lack of independent test specifications regarding their sensitivity, impedance swings etc.. |
Listening Impressions post Part 2 is live! |
Rebbi- The problem is that it is very hard to find somewhere where you can listen to speakers, without a salesman obnoxious presence... What I would suggest is to get to a show where you can hear some/most of these speakers. Israel was at the show in Manhattan in 2014 and is likely to be there/RMAF/Capitol Audiofest in 2015. Most of the time, if you're patient you can get the music you feel is most critical cued up for a listen. If you're recognized as really serious, you might even get an extended demo before or after hours, with the possibility of a show special price. In the meantime, since you are very happy w the amp/speaker sound you now have for 90% of what you listen to, you can enjoy that, let the stuff break in more, and get used to how different things affect the sound. I know how hard patience can be, but short of buying, comparing, and selling the loser, there are not too many options these days, esp. w boutique products. Unless of course, you can find a B&M store who stocks Coincident, Ref 3A, Tekton and who knows what else. |
There is always the proven option of waiting to buy used and not overpaying and selling if needed to move on. It might be nice to keep two pair around at a time to compare at home, even for just a short period if financially feasible. |
Rebbi,
Israel used to do all the big/popular audio shows. He has cut back on his show schedule in the past couple of years I've noticed. He's likely as busy as he wants to be these days. Rebbi I'd check with him and see if he plans to do any upcoming shows. I'd love to hear the Triumph Extreme MK II compared to the Tekton Lore. I suspect both would work very well with your amplifier.
Charles, |
Rebbi, The coincidents have coherency that is just uncanny. For all the world this sounds like a single driver. Superb transparency and air, and if everything else is right, they image like champs. Accuracy of timber is as good as I have heard. This is a very refined speaker. Dead neutral. While they begin to tail off at 45 Hz, they have useful and tuneful response down below 35. Very fast speakers, including the lower frequency. They actually better the nice tight mid base that Magnepan speakers are famous for. I have chosen to augment the low frequencies with a couple of rel subs. I'm adding just a wee bit of low frequency, so as not to create an issue with coherence. This seams to warm things up just a bit. To my way of thinking, as a speaker in my primary system, this is a much better speaker than the deCapos. BUT-- while the deCapos aren't neutral, they are very seductive. I can run these without subs in my secondary system and not feel the loss because of the warm tonality. I'm using these in a system that is all about old style fat tubiness. I will use the deCapos in my new great room, which has hardwoods and is really lively. The Coincidents stay in my new music room which is carpeted. The coincidents are too much of a good thing in my great room with the live acoustic. That room requires the warmth of the deCapos. I do find my little dynamo amp is mating well with the deCapos, provided you are not going super loud. I am achieving exactly the romantic, fat, tubey sound I was hoping for in my secondary system. You love your deCapos, and that concerns me. You may well miss that sound when you go to another speaker. |
Brownsfan,
So helpful, thank you. What intrigues me about the TE's, besides the fact that they're specifically designed for SET amps like those made by Coincident, is that they echo some of the design elements of the De Capo: slanted front baffle for time alignment, simple crossover and so on. I just have a feeling that the TE's have a more dead, robust cabinet.
By the way, do your De Capo's have the BE tweeter and the Nextel finish? Mine are wood veneered but I retrofitted the BE tweeter, which I find wonderful.
Again, thank you so much for the informative post. |
Rebbi, Yes, my deCapos have the Be tweeters and are nextel. BTW, I have had an opportunity to carefully audition the 26K Coincident PREs. Certainly, the PREs have that low frequency foundation you can't expect in a monitor like the TEIIs. And, the PREs have more air. Attack and decay is quite special. But, it just amazes me how much Israel accomplished with the TEIIs. I have said this before. No 4K speaker has any business being as good as the TEIIs. But, I'm still not getting rid of my deCapos! |
Brownsfan,
I feel that the uncolored transparency of the TE is ideal for Rebbi's amp, it will expose all the glory it has to offer. Although revealing the character is natural rather than analytical. Rebbi you must be somewhat surprised by the margin this amp surpases your Manley el 34 amp. You now fully understand what a good SET provides. Your listening notes say it all very conviincinly. |
I'd like to hear that combo. 😻 |
Although I have no doubt Rebbi is thrilled with his new amp, but to make direct comparisons to an amp he hasn't heard in several months seems a bit hard to swallow. Rebbi may very well come to the same conclusions but a direct A/B would be far more convincing. |
A very descriptive and well thought out comparison of the two speakers Brownsfan. Rebbi I would really see if you could listen first, particularly with your budget considerations and limited options with the Triumphs. It might be worth a plane ticket to Brownsfans place to hear firsthand to be certain :^) Good luck! |
Smctigue1,
Hi, some may feel as you do as well. Once I've live with an amp or any component you know its sound and character quite
well. Playing familiar music and comparing it to what you heard previously(in the same system) has been very effective and truthful for me. Rebbi is hearing so much more that having the Manley there side by side won't change the outcome IMO.
I have done comparisons using both methods(direct and recent memory) and either is effective. I understand if it's different for you.
Charles, |
Test pilot,
I think the direct discount is factored in the price. I believe this speaker would be more money via the typical dealer network approach. For 3K you're getting an exceptional speaker just as Brownsfan described. |
Smctigue,
I don't take your skepticism at all personally but I wanted to comment on your post.
I've drawn most of my observations based upon music that I've listened to over and over again. I had the Shrimp and Mahi's in my system (and was quite happy with them) for the better part of 4 years, if memory serves, and during that time, I became very accustomed to how they played my favorite music. I mean, if I had a dollar for every time I played "Chan Chan" from Buena Vista Social Club and "All I Wanna Do" from Sheryl Crow's Greatest Hits... well, I'd be able to afford the Coincident Triumph Extreme Mk II's.
:-P
So, when you plug a new amp into the system, and suddenly it's, "Wow, I've never heard that before," it's a pretty good indicator that something is very different and that new information has been revealed.
Just saying. |
Rebbi,
LOL! You must have posted a few seconds after me, We made the same point. Your method is fine believe me. |
Charles1dad, you should know better than most that Israel rarely ever sells his speakers/equipment at full list. Going factory direct and avoiding the 40-50% dealer markup, gives him room to offer discounts, therefore, "motivating" potential buyer to pull the trigger.
Still a great product, but just a different channel marketing approach.
One of the reasons the Triumph Extreme 2's are so sensitive is that they forego the power hungry lower octaves to obtain their "SET Friendly" status. Most Extreme owners use their speakers with a sub(s) crossed over in the 60hz range. On their own they can sound sterile and lifeless.
A buddy of mine switched from a 300B SET amp to an EL34 PP to drive his TEx2. The speaker responded really nice to the added power and came to life. IMHO, the TEx2 need a bit of power to get you toe tapping.
In any event, it's your system, your room, and your money, therefore, only your happiness matters. |
Reb,
One thing worth noting is that often when a significant change is made we focus on what we hear that we did not before. how about what we heard before that we no longer hear? I suspect that once one hits a certain level of sound performance the differences may be largely what is emphasized now whereas other things were before.
Just something worth thinking about.
Regarding Coincident speakers, I will say that most of what I read about their design and specs comes from teh vendor, not an independant source doing measurements, etc. So that is another fact worth considering that in the end may or may not mean anything.
In the end, after considering all the facts, you just have to go with your gut on these things and make a call.
Its likely going to sound really good no matter what at this point. |
Again, not to be defensive here, but I thought of one other example of what I want to convey.
In 1986, a year out of grad school, working full time, single and with some discretionary income burning a hole in my pocket, I went shopping for my first really good stereo. This was metro NYC, before the Internet, when there were still lots of brick and mortar stereo stores in NYC and the 'burbs.
I schlepped a copy of James Taylor's "That's Why I'm Here" LP to every audition at every store. In those days, I was fixated on a bass guitar glissando that comes in around 5 measures into the song. If it sounded like a stringed instrument and captured the whole bass guitar sound, I was impressed (which was how I ended up with a pair of the original Vandersteen 2C's).
So, I've been listening to that album for about 30 years.
Anyway, about 7 measures after the bass guitar glissando, an electric piano comes in. And the first time I heard it on the Kit 1, I grinned because the piano floated in front of the speakers and swirled around the room, which had never happened before. That's the kind of experience I'm talking about.
Mapman: What's missing? Hmmm.... good question. Low end is surprisingly powerful, especially given the rep of 300B amps, but perhaps the grip of the Manley's was a little firmer? Hard to say. That's why I'd be so curious to hear this amp on a pair of more efficient speakers that didn't make it work so hard. Other than that, not much. I mean, shoot, I was listening to something else this morning, something very familiar, that gave me the chills, that's how musically captivating it sounded. |
Reb,
I didn't say it clearly but what what I meant is what is emphasized more or less in specific recordings. Specific things like you mention that you hear now and did not before, or vice versa.
The grip on the bass thing does not surprise me and is a valid thing to compare but its what effect does that and other technical differences actually have on specific recordings.
For example I have multiple amps speakers and systems. I know which one performs and sounds best in general to me, but I also know I hear different things in each case. Each system has its own unique biases that may be subtle or more. We realize what we hear currently that we like a lot faster than anything else that might be different. It usually takes time to get ones ears around everything, hence the common practice of making one change at a time and giving it some time to sink in. |
One thing I've noticed about the audiophile community is the secondary nit picking of someone's obvious enthusiasm over a product. I suspect that the intentions are good but some how people can't seem to resist. Rebbi is simply thrilled and happy with his amplifier, is that hard for some to accept?
A few years ago on this site a person named Alberto wrote a review of his recently purchased Shindo Cortese amplifier. He just loved what it did for the music he enjoyed and wanted to share this experience with fellow music lovers. Sure enough after a while people began to question could it "really' be this good sounding.They wanted to know what had he compared it to reach his conclusions and on and on it went.
The guy was just happy he found an amplifier that made such beauty in his home, is that so bad? The whole point of music is to enjoy and get emotionally involved with what you hear.Alberto was a guitar player and I think like most musicians they "must' have that emotion and communication factor present or else its all a waste of time.
I guess I relate strongly to this approach rather than some cerebral analytical investigation of the sound more so than the music. Rebbi loves what this his amplifier has brought to his home system and this level of joy should be celebrated. He's hearing music at a higher and deeper level than ever before with the addition of this amplifier. That's a level some(many?) never reach.
I'm very happy for Rebbi.
Charles, |
First, I completely agree once again with Charles1Dad.
Second, Rebbi, you confuse me. On the one hand you now have a system where you state that the low end is surprising you (yet the Manley had a little more grip), ok, understand that, then you state you'd like a little more efficient speaker, ok, understand that also, then, you say you were listening to something familiar this morning that gave you chills, musically captivating, ok, understand that. What I don't understand: I thought you had a constrained budget, hence I wasted a lot of time writing about a great bang for the buck speaker that is similar to the DeCapos, only more efficient (by a lot) with solid bass foundation that certainly, by all accounts, competes with $5,000 speakers. I know I would have recommended to you other speakers if I knew your budget was several thousand dollars plus. So, what is your budget? I feel a bit foolish, sounding like a Tekton salesman when I have no connection to them whatsoever. And, if the music is captivating, giving you chills on music that you mostly listen too, then are you going to actually throw that away for a type of music you don't often listen such as Techno Synth Bass? |
Charles, I agree with you 100%. I am happy for everyone who enjoys what they are doing.
On the other hand, that alone does little to help someone work through their issues. That requires open discussion and not being afraid to make suggestions in good faith.
When the issues are all resolved, then there will be nothing much left to talk about here save good wishes.
I am very fickle with these things. On one hand the engineer in me wants to dissect every technical detail and apply those accordingly. On the other hand the other part of me says this ain't that hard just try some different things until you find what works. Its a dilemma. You often have to pul at things from both sides in order to cover all the bases properly. There is a term for this called the "strategy elastic" that companies apply in order to move in the right direction strategically despite there often being no single correct answer to issues in many cases. |
My short answer would be to try living with the current setup for a while and see how it all comes together.
The amp will take some time to settle in- it really sounds to me like you have a really great start and to jump on any changes at the moment would be premature.. |
Mapman,
"Strategy elastic' I like that concept.
Mikirob,
You didn't waste your time in my opinion. I get the feeling the Tekton Lore is a hidden gem at a very approachable price. Every now and then you can come across a low cost(relatively speaking)product that offers exceptional value and quality. The Lore has gotten rave reviews from a diverse group of reviewers. |
Hi, Mikirob:
Sounds like I aggravated you, which was not my intention!
My budget, if I do sell them, will be "whatever I can get for the De Capo BE's." I don't want to speculate to specifically on what that might be but I'd have to guess it would be in the sub $2K arena.
That said, don't take my questions about the Coincident Triumph Extremes as ignoring your carefully reasoned and informed advice. As things now stand, the TE's are out of the financial ballpark for me unless I sit tight for quite awhile and try to save up for them. I corresponded with Israel Blume of Coincident and he confirmed that the speakers would be $3000 US delivered. No home trials are available due to their pricing structure. He added that in 20 years of doing business this way they've never had a case of buyer's remorse.
At this point I'm leaning toward sitting tight with what I have for a bit, allowing the amp to further settle in, and enjoying the current system for what it does well. I do have little doubt, though, that I'd get even more out of the system with higher sensitivity, easier to drive speakers than what I now have. But I also don't want to do a "ready, fire, aim" on this. There's no rush! |
Rwbadley,
Our posts just crossed "in the mail." Seems we are thinking alike here. :-) |
Those Coincidents are small and likely not extended in the bass, which is a good thing for a SET with small speakers. It still might be enough for a small room, depending on expectations. If expectations are to have it all, you could very well end up with a sub in any case in lieu of larger more expensive very high efficiency horns or something along those lines. Just more food for thought. You might not like the idea of adding complexity with a sub, but that price you pay might be small in relation to the benefits of cutting to the chase faster and doing it with the stuff you already like a lot making most of the music.
It wouldn't hurt to pick up a sub used somewhere locally and try. If it does not work, you can sell, loose nothing and be no worse off than currently.
Powered subs are almost always the least expensive way to have it all when needed, with most any speakers or amps. If you can build an amp kit, I suspect you will be able to get the sub mixed in adequately in a reasonably short period of time. I've done it. It can be no more complicated than trial and error with various settings and placements while listening to various reference recordings along teh way. Kinda fun in its own way, just like building the kit. Plus you have the ability to tweak as needed without replacing. Not too shabby! |
Bass will ALWAYS be the achilles heel of a low power amp (and/or smaller speakers, especially more efficient ones in genral). Powered subs let you address the issue once and for all without having to change the rest. Its the most practical solution if you are already liking what you hear and just want to address the power for the bass issue. If the amp is clipping and distorting audibly on some tracks, and teh bass is not as tight and articulate as it might be otherwise, there may be other more subtle negative effects at play as well as a result of asking too much of the amp. If you ask less of it and let it do what it does best more effortlessly, you should be sitting about as possible. |
Sitting about as pretty as possible, that is. |
First, let me state that I love the blog, it inspired my wife as well. This discussion has been a most enjoyable thread, as was your thread that started this one on best bargain SET. These threads are amongst the best type that Audiogon has to offer with knowledgable friendly posters' (you know who you are).
Keep in mind that most of us are truly well-intentioned, want the best outcome for you; we understand that your choices will likely be different than our own, but we make an attempt to guide you to good possibility, to narrow choices from our personal experience, or something promising that we came across.
What I found frustrating more than irritating was that I thought we were operating in a parameter of suggesting/finding a speaker that would play well in a small room (11x10), with the type of music you typically listen too with limited budget ($2,000 or so). So, given that the conversation started drifting to upwards of $3,000 I felt I wasted a good deal of time working with the above parameter since higher price points bring more options to the table; hence, wasting my time banging the drum for a particular speaker, at a price point that performs as well or better than many speakers at $3,000 or above. Yeah, it was frustrating, because in my case I was looking for the reviews, cutting and pasting, attempting to bring points of view from some industry professionals to back my suggestion. It wasn't merely a extemporaneous respone, try speaker A, it's good blah, blah...there was some corroboration and research, plus I own the speakers. Then we are talking about speakers costing much, much more, hence the wasting my time comment. |
"No home trials are available due to their pricing structure. He added that in 20 years of doing business this way they've never had a case of buyer's remorse."
No offense to you believing that Rebbi but if I had a dollar for everytime I've heard a variation of that line over the years, I could own them with the dollars! If this is truly the case, why not offer an in home trial even charging a restocking fee with the knowledge of the manufacturer that he won't get a return, it's never happened in 20 years. I don't want to come across as a cynic but really, 3K direct for a stand mounted monitor speaker is not chump change regardless of the seemingly steal of a bargain for the Dynamo integrated. In any case, I totally agree to live with what you have until you can sort this out throughly, ideally with your amp or an SET with the speakers under consideration. At least with Mikirobs' suggestion you get 60 days to listen first and they don't cost 3K. Advice is in plenty of supply but you have certainly demonstrated being shrewd and deliberate thus far. I'm sure you'll make the right move going forward. It will be interesting to us all watching how this plays out. |
Mikirob,
Understood. Short of an unexpected windfall, my budget will not be $3000 and up. ;-)
And again, thanks for all the cutting and pasting. |
Tubegoover,
You may be right. I can only pass along what he told me in an email. I asked him if there was a home trial, or if he had any TE customers in my neck of the woods whose TE's I might audition, but he did not.
That said, only he knows what his profit margins need to be to keep the business afloat.
I will say that Israel was a pleasure to talk to and seemed very knowledgable about speaker design. I just don't see myself buying a $3K pair of monitors sight unseen/unheard. I'm thinking that if I do decide to replace the De Capo's, it's going to have to be from someone like Omega or Tekton that offers a home trial. Zu, by the way, also offers a home trial, but something about their aggressive, hipster/lifestyle marketing puts me off. Maybe that's silly snobbery on my part, but there you go.
Of course, the wildcard would be some fantastic deal on used gear coming along. You never know. |
