Hi Rob,
Maybe it's just my interpretation but It seems that Rebbi was receptive to the idea of getting the Lores(he reached out to Eric). Of that may be a moot point once his amp is sorted out. |
People often claim their particular amplifiers have near/same vitrues as a SET but with more power. If that's their experience I'll have to take their word for it. You can build a system around speakers or an amplifier. What's true is that either choice will require compromise and trade offs, no exception to this fact. I've heard no SS or large tube amp that sounds like a "well implemented" SET, obviously others have different opinions, that's life.
Lower power amps do require careful speaker selection. Well, lower efficiency speakers by the same token placed limitations on amplifier choices,yep, compromise. Rebbi you've heard what your 300b SET can do and prior amp couldn't. If you can find a non SET to give you what your current AN kit amp does, buy it! If Grannyring gets SET sound from his SS amps then congratulations. I've never heard this in my own experiences.
Certainly he may enjoy and prefer his present amps, I totally understand that with no problem. My point is Nothing will sound like a good SET other than a good SET. If that isn't what someone seeks, that's a different story.
Rebbi it's very possible you may love the AN el34 alternative(maybe even prefer it). My point,it won't mimic tour SET because it isn't a 300b SET which you have recently been introduce to. SET is not limited to any music genre "if" the proper speaker is matched with the amplifier. Yes the speaker is important, so is the amplifier to build a fine system.
Many good pathways available for good sound, we all decide which direction suits our goals the best.
Good Kuck,
Charles, |
Rebbi,
With the De Capo the AN Kit el34 push pull is most likely a better match. You'd need to compare that to your amp with a suitable speaker and listen. IMO 300b offers superior sound quality vs an el 34 tube. |
Mapman,
Actually there's no disagreement that there are multiple ways to obtain excellent sound, that's recognized here. I just differ that one topology will mimic another. Perhaps it has happened for some but it hasn't been the case for me. I can only reflect on my experiences just as you and others do the same. Anyway its been an interesting exchange of varying points of view. Rebbi has intriguing options to ponder. Rebbi if you find a non SET that does what your current AN Kit amp does as described in your blog please share that discovery with me,
Thanks, |
Jet,
As with you, I have no limits on music genres. For a given amplifier you simply must find the appropriate speaker. If Rebbi decided to keep the De Capo, same principle, find the appropriate amplifier. Either way it requires the right amp-speaker match. The question is which one do you keep and build around? The marriage analogy does apply, it's about compatibility. Jet I know from past postings you listen to "many" types of music without difficulty.
Charles, |
Hi Bill,
My point is either choice/path ia very viable. Where we part company is the "common wisdom" that the speaker is more important. Many believe that and I realize I'm in the minority but that's okay with me.Can excellent sound be obtained with non SET amplification, of course! However there are certain qualities that SET does better and to a higher level IMO. This is strictly a personal observation on my part and you and others may not agree, again I understand this.
SET (the good ones)yield the best tonality,timbre, harmonics and sense of naturalness I've "ever" heard(the list of amplifiers is long). I am simply reflecting my personal experiences and speak for no one else. I believe Rebbi based on his written listening impressions has heard these special qualities as well.
If Rebbi finds or builds a non SET that has the same effect on him then that's wonderful. That's for him to decide. SET pushed specific musical buttons like no other amp in my listening experiences. Certainly things could/ may be different for Rebbi. I wish him the best regardless of which path he follows.
Charles, |
Bill,
I always appreciate your perspectives/impressions.
Take Care, |
Rebbi,
The more comments you post, the more evident it seems(at least to me) that you love what this 300b SET is doing. Your reference point is the formerly owned Manley el34 push pull. Based on your clearly written comments the SET is an obvious step above and has taken you to another sonic level. It seems the vast majority of your music is presented beautifully. A small niche of music causes a problem.
The Manley is a very good push pull el34,is the AN Kit el34 going to be that much above the Manley? It's possible. I just strongly suspect that your 300b is the more musically satisfying and "special" amplifier. Anyway I look forward to reading part two of your listening sessions. I believe the SET has made the all important communication, emotion/involvement/soul reaching level that your Manley couldn't give you(otherwise you wouldn't have notice such a difference between them).
Rebbi I base this conclusion solely on what you've written. Am I wrong?
Best Regards,
Charles, |
Mikirob,
I know you and your wife have extensive musician backgrounds. How is the tonality/timbre of acoustic instruments? Does the Tekton sound natural?
Thanks,
Charles, |
Bill,
You,I and everyone else agree on the importance of amp and speaker match. With the exception of "Hip Hop" bass reproduction Rebbi is thrilled with his sound. two amps used with the De Capo and his enjoyment markedly increased with his AN Kit amp.Why get rid of a wonderful amp to maybe find some SS or PP that "might" duplicate what he clearly already has? Why risk that? He just needs a more efficient speaker with this fine amp. He'll then be able to play any musuc he wants just as I, Jet,Mikirob and many others are doing.It's as if he's 90% positive and 10% negative and all the focus gravitates to the 1/10 fraction, ignoring the great 9/10. Human nature I suppose. More efficient speaker and the small problem is solved. Interesting discussion.
Thanks, |
Tubegroover,
I get the strong impression that the Tekton Lore could be a very viable alternative to a large horn speaker, Based on Mikirob's real life experiences and numerous reviews available. Of course their are other strong options(Audio Note speakers, but these are more money). Let's face it, as a diverse group of audiophiles, there is going to be no universal final agreement. I wouldn't expect it any other way.
Mikirob, you and your wife are going to be in music lover's heaven with those three rooms, what a delight!
I believe Rebbi received better sound with his amp than even he expected(just a gut feeling). Okay Rebbi we're all ready to read part 2 of your listening sessions.
Charles, |
Rebbi
What's fascinating is 8 watts of high quality is impressing you to this degree on a speaker that's in reality only 86~87 db! Think what the amp will achieve with 93 db or higher and a high or flatter impedance load, Oh my! You have not heard the full potential of your SET despite how pleased you are with it currently. That is the beauty of your situation. |
One ironic point in this discussion is power output and its stated benefit . Rebbi had high power Bel Canto amps and wasn't impressed. He says the lower power Manley tube amp was much better. Now the AN 300b has brought him the best overall sound he's ever had in his home. Food for thought, quality trumps quantity sometimes. |
Mikirob,
I think at some point along the way we adhere to the more power is better mantra. I sure did at one point. We live and learn and find what's best for are individual needs. At one time I owned a Symphonic Line amplifier. A well regarded SS amp. You know what? It was good. My current SET has just moved me to an entirely higher level plain and simple. This is why I can relate to what Rebbi is just discovering now. I understand his great joy with his wonderful amp. |
Brownsfan has the Triumph Extreme MK II and the De Capo along with an 8 watt SET. He says the Coincident Triumph is superb in his system. He is a very astute listener with much insight and experience . |
Bill,
"Massive quality" I like that! |
Rebbi,
Israel used to do all the big/popular audio shows. He has cut back on his show schedule in the past couple of years I've noticed. He's likely as busy as he wants to be these days. Rebbi I'd check with him and see if he plans to do any upcoming shows. I'd love to hear the Triumph Extreme MK II compared to the Tekton Lore. I suspect both would work very well with your amplifier.
Charles, |
Brownsfan,
I feel that the uncolored transparency of the TE is ideal for Rebbi's amp, it will expose all the glory it has to offer. Although revealing the character is natural rather than analytical. Rebbi you must be somewhat surprised by the margin this amp surpases your Manley el 34 amp. You now fully understand what a good SET provides. Your listening notes say it all very conviincinly. |
Smctigue1,
Hi, some may feel as you do as well. Once I've live with an amp or any component you know its sound and character quite
well. Playing familiar music and comparing it to what you heard previously(in the same system) has been very effective and truthful for me. Rebbi is hearing so much more that having the Manley there side by side won't change the outcome IMO.
I have done comparisons using both methods(direct and recent memory) and either is effective. I understand if it's different for you.
Charles, |
Test pilot,
I think the direct discount is factored in the price. I believe this speaker would be more money via the typical dealer network approach. For 3K you're getting an exceptional speaker just as Brownsfan described. |
Rebbi,
LOL! You must have posted a few seconds after me, We made the same point. Your method is fine believe me. |
One thing I've noticed about the audiophile community is the secondary nit picking of someone's obvious enthusiasm over a product. I suspect that the intentions are good but some how people can't seem to resist. Rebbi is simply thrilled and happy with his amplifier, is that hard for some to accept?
A few years ago on this site a person named Alberto wrote a review of his recently purchased Shindo Cortese amplifier. He just loved what it did for the music he enjoyed and wanted to share this experience with fellow music lovers. Sure enough after a while people began to question could it "really' be this good sounding.They wanted to know what had he compared it to reach his conclusions and on and on it went.
The guy was just happy he found an amplifier that made such beauty in his home, is that so bad? The whole point of music is to enjoy and get emotionally involved with what you hear.Alberto was a guitar player and I think like most musicians they "must' have that emotion and communication factor present or else its all a waste of time.
I guess I relate strongly to this approach rather than some cerebral analytical investigation of the sound more so than the music. Rebbi loves what this his amplifier has brought to his home system and this level of joy should be celebrated. He's hearing music at a higher and deeper level than ever before with the addition of this amplifier. That's a level some(many?) never reach.
I'm very happy for Rebbi.
Charles, |
Mapman,
"Strategy elastic' I like that concept.
Mikirob,
You didn't waste your time in my opinion. I get the feeling the Tekton Lore is a hidden gem at a very approachable price. Every now and then you can come across a low cost(relatively speaking)product that offers exceptional value and quality. The Lore has gotten rave reviews from a diverse group of reviewers. |
Rebbi,
I have a gut feeling that the Tekton Lore is an excellent choice when all is considered. I have no reason to doubt Mikirob's strong impression and enthusiasm. If the Lore is as open a nd transparent as many have reported you amp should simply shine and just sing with musical truth. I look forward to read if reality matches my expectations. This could be quite the special pairing.
Charles, |
Hi Rebbi,
As your amplifier burns in it steadily sounds better and impresses you more, no surprise. Keep this in mind for perspective, you're using generic 300b tubes, yet the amp sounds very good. Further down the road you may have the chance to try the better 300b tubes. They are a substantial improvement. You have tremendous upside potential in that "simple" circuit amplifier. Better quality power cords improve things as well. There's much that 8 watt amp has to offer. These types of amps are so transparent and pure that you'll hear any upgrades or changes. As you recognize you've moved to a level your previous amplifier couldn't reach.
Are you leaning toward the 10" woofer Tekton Lore with the soft dome tweeter(98 db) or the 8" with the SEAS driver and metal tweeters (94 db)?
Charles, |
Hi Rebbi,
Unless there's some unknown sonic penalty I'd choose the larger more efficient Lore just you and Mapman. Reading various reviews people are genuinely impressed by its sound quality, no easy feat at that price point. I seems to be much more than a budget speaker that can play rock at high SPL. It's said to do justice for jazz and classical in terms of tonality, nuance and sophistication, now that is encouraging. Very curious to read your thoughts once you've heard Sebrof's Tekton. I hope it all works out for you. |
Mikirob,
I have the same feelings toward the DIY crowd.There is a broad spectrum of competence and talent amongst them. Some of them are quite capable and have built excellent products. Overall however there's a tendency for self pats on the back. Some of them feel they can not just equal but build better than any manufactuer and that's not true. It is difficult to start ,maintain and grow an audio equitment company. You're so correct about Israel Blume and others like him, They are a tough act to follow. It is easy to point fingers and say I can do better. A "few" can perhaps, but certainly not the vast majority IMO. |
Rebbi.
I believe you'll get this sorted out. Obviously the 3 watt SET should not out drive your 8 watt SET. This is evidence of the Tekton's easy to drive reputation(3 watts!). In hindsight fingers point to your amplifier. I recall Brownsfan not having this issue with his De Capo driven by the 8 watt Dynamo amplifier. Overall jist think, all of this wonderful sound with a faulty amplifier.
Best Regards, |
Rebbi,
Did you like the sound of the Tekton Katz?
It appears that Morricab(Audio Asylum) was correct regarding the beauty of De Capo with a SET amplifier. I'm very curious to see what the tech finds wrong with your amplifier. Could be something quite simple. This has been a very good thread. Very interesting and with mature behavior displayed. I appreciate the absence of trolls, drama queens and pissing contests (what a relief).
Charles, |
Hi Al,
Given your primary music genre of large scale symphonic orchestra and chosen listening levels, you made a good amplifier choice. I know the VAC REN 30/30 and 70/70 well. The loudest I've had my Frankenstein was 95-100 db for some Doors and a Neil Young recording. Highest peak was 105 db during an Art Blakey drum solo on a T. Monk CD(that I cranked up) (C weighted/fast setting). Those occasions are rare for me. Usually I'm listening at an average of 75-83 db SPL. So most of the time my listening power output range of the amp is well under 1 watt(actually fractions of 1 watt). I sit 10 feet away from the speakers. So 8 watts is plenty for my particular needs.
Al you are right, having a speaker with a high load impedance is clearly an advantage for my SET amplifier.
Charles, |
Randy,
You results aren't surprising to me. I know that Lou personally seems to prefer SS with his speakers. I've heard Daedalus models driven by big SS amps and tube amplifiers as well. IMO his speakers sound noticeably better with tube power amps. So I can imagine you and Al are getting very good results with your respective systems. |
Hi Rob,The Line Magnetic W.E.755 field coil speaker has always caught my attention. I get the feeling that speaker with a good SET could be something really wonderful. If you get a chance to hear it let us know your impression of it. I definitely trust your ears.
Thanks, |
I have had some off corespondence with Tim and I think highly of his reviewing skills. He has a good ear and taste IMO. I think our listening preferences are very similar, his frequent references to jazz guitar chords and harmony I completely understand. His comments regarding sound heard at the Toronto show mirror mine per CES visits over the years. Ultra priced products don't always equal better sound quality. I agree with him that some of the lesser known,less costly rooms have the better music reproduction sometimes. Anyway his recommendations would get my attention. |
Dan ,
First watt SS, 300b SET and class D. Different flavors for your Tannoys, I'm sure you're having a ball.😃😃
Charles, |
Roxy54,
You're right, the EML 300b tubes aren't cheap. I find them to be an absolute value given their superb sound. If you ever come across a used pair I would strongly urge you to buy them. I believe you'd love the EML XLS in your fine amplifier.
Charles, |
+1 Roxy54, the customer support and assistance is first rate, |
I'm very curious to know what Pete discovers for this rare type of abnormality. It will be educational. |
Rebbi has been emphatic regarding the new sonic discoveries heard with the amp with familiar music(three listening session notes on his blog). There's no logical reason not to expect a properly functioning amp to sound better than one that's defective.He's getting better music reproduction than he ever had with his prior Manley. His future is bright with the AN Kit amplifier. With the one exception he has pointed out(synthesized bass reproduction)all else was an improvement. Quite telling and very encouraging. Rebbi built a better amp than what he had. |
It has been pointed out earlier in this thread that the actual sensitivity of the speaker is in reality 86 to 87 db. Jbrrp1 in your case your may have surplus system gain. |
Rebbi had the amp tested by a qualified tech who confirmed markedly decreased power output.The amp struggled with a Tekton speaker that was then easily driven by a 3 watt 2A3 SET. brownsfan has very successfully driven the De Capo with 2 different 8 watt amplifiers. Rebbi has a malfunctioning amplifier.
Here's what I find remarkable about this situation. A decfective(below specified power rating) amp driving 86-87 db speakers sounding better than the former higher powered amplifier with the same speaker. When this amplifier is fixed, look out! |
Hi Mikirob,
I look forward to reading your impression of the De Capo. |
Hi Rebbi,
That is good news, the problem is solved. Very interesting the high quality sound you heard despite the bad output transformers. Imagine the result with properly functioning transformers. I look forward to reading your follow up listening impressions.
Charles, |
"and sounds terrific"
Just what I expected, congratulations Rebbi.
Charles, |
Al,
Thanks for that CD recommendation, I'll order a copy today.
Charles |
Jet,
You have good transformers currently. Are you getting AN double C core output transformers? Copper or silver wired ? Let us know how they sound. I think you are in store for a real treat.
Charles, |
Jet
What output tubes will you be using in this second amplifier? Wow, you are in store for much fun and listening pleasure. I will follow your system page thread for sure. I know what you mean regarding the use of silver transformers, they are said to be the ultimate in sound but are very expensive. I am very curious to see how the Sophia Transformers compare to the Audio Note output transformers
Charles,. |
Rob,
We all learn from each other and the experiences posted here. For example I look forward to reading your impressions of the Tekton Lore and the De Capo with your amplifiers. Most of us posting on this thread are just music lovers who want natural sounding components to increase our listening enjoyment. I'm very eager to read Rebbi's impressions when he gets his properly functioning amplifier back.
Charles, |
A few examples of jazz bassists who were known for "walking" the bass. Leroy Vinegar,Percy Health,Curtis Counts and Paul Chambers. |
John,
that is a very good bargain price for that caliber of tube. I got those tubes back in 2009 when they first hit the market and they were 600.00 a pair. They are very good 300b tubes and I used them(happily) for 2 1/2 years before I got the Takatsuki.
Charles, |
Rebbi,
Terrific news, I look forward to reading your impressions of this properly functioning amplifier. You are not running out of steam anymore with heavy bass music driving your speakers, that tells me those are high quality output transformers and a very good power supply.
Charles, |
