Building the Audio Note Kit 1 SET amp...
Smctiuge1: "Rebbi, for the sake of De Capo owners in the future looking to experiment with SET it may be beneficial to explain why this thread took the turn it has. Earlier in the thread you commented that the power issue had "been put to bed." Good question and fair enough. I think I spoke too soon in that earlier comment. Additionally, when I said what I said, I was still entertaining the possibility that I'd messed up something in the build or perhaps gotten a bad tube. I finally figured out (with Brian's of ANK's help) that the amp was fine but that a few of my favorite tracks from a couple of albums that I've been keeping in heavy rotation would overtax the amp to distortion if I played them at accustomed volumes. For a great deal of what I've listened to so far, the combination sounds marvelous! I know this is a threadbare cliché, but I find myself wanting to just sit and listen; it's like I'm being reintroduced to music I've been listening to for years, but in a deeper way. And yes, the "issue has been put to bed" in the sense that if you don't listen to modern, electronic music, and your listening room is small to medium-small, and you're not a total head banger intent on ruining your hearing entirely, the De Capo / Kit 1 combo might make you very happy for a very long time. But, if any of these things doesnÂt' apply to you, then I think (and my opinion on this may change over time, so "for now") that the suitability of the De Capo's with any 8.5 Watt 300B SET amp is "borderline." It just so happens that I hit the limits of the pairing early on because I threw some pop music at them that - with "subterranean," hip-hop flavored synth bass - caused the Kit 1 to run out of steam and distort at moderate (in my judgment) volumes. It's like I got the "bad news" early on, and then discovered the good news later in spades. Does that make sense? As I was listening to a "guilty pleasure" Michael Franks LP from the early 1980's tonight, not expecting much except that I liked the tunes and the musicianship, I was flabbergasted (truly) with what the Kit 1 did with that album. The music was involving and sounded beautiful in a way I've never heard it sound in the 22 years since I bought that LP. I kept thinking, "Oh, so THAT'S what the recording engineer had in mind!" The Kit 1 managed to extract a hidden beauty out of that record that I didn't know was there. By the way, what PP amp did you end up pairing with the DC's? |
Smctigue1: Oh, also: have you ever heard the Omega's? I spoke to the proprietor and designer who sounds like a lovely guy. He really believes that his hemp cone drivers have eliminated the classic bad rap on single driver speakers: harsh midrange "shout" and limited bandwidth. The super alnico model is probably out of my price range but the Super 7XRS Mk2 might hit the economic sweet spot. |
Mikirob: Spoke to Eric Alexander at Tekton last week and he sounds like a really stand-up guy. His prices are unbelievably reasonable and his 60 day trial makes trying one of his speaks into a lower risk proposition. Given my amp and my room, he recommended the Lore or Lore 2.0. It's something I'm considering. He, himself, is not a huge fan of low power amps (although he owns some) but he said that lots of his customers are happily running his designs with SET's. He opined that "Running an 8 watt SET with a 92 db speaker is like running a Ferrari with the cruise control stuck on 55 mph. You'll never really see what the amp is capable of." He also jokes that "Amps are tools. One night you're going to want to crank The Who and then you may want to have a more powerful amp on hand." ;-) Good guy. |
Rebbi your last post says it all. The amp should be able to play all the kinds of music that YOU want to enjoy on a given day. Wether the speaker or amp changes, in the end, a better match is needed. I recall running my Coincident speakers with three different SET amps and on many evenings the music was so enjoyable, just as you mentioned. However, over a period of months it became obvious that the amps were just plain running out of gas on more occasions than I originally thought. The question is not about wether a DHT 300b amp sounds better or best compared to all other tube amp designs. That is not even a real question as a dozen 300b amps sound as different from each other as a dozen PP amps sound from the same dozen 300b amps. The real question is wether the system with your current speakers and a new tube amp will sound better than your current amp with new speakers. The comparison is at the total system level......not the amp alone. I owned a very expensive Canary 300b paralell single ended set of amps. They put out 50 watts per channel, but did not sound as good as a solid state integrated in my total system. By good I mean all the SET type SQ attributes we all enjoy. How is this possible? Well easy. The design of the integrated was pure magic and the world offers a vast array of magical gear that we can never begin to consume. It is a great big audio world out there with many surprises and Magic awaiting! Certain 300b amps are but one. |
Charles, The tonality and timbre, naturalness are there, again, read the various reviews. Both Tim Smith and Scott Hull are thorough reviewers and speak plain truths as I know it with the Tektons. Grannyring, I played bass guitar during the 60s Rock era, and unless you want to damage yours ears, a quality 8-20 watt SET tube unit in a 14x16 room with a well designed and implemented high efficiency speaker such as the Tekton and others will rock the room. If you want stadium Rock, to fill The Boston Tea Party venue or Fillmore East/West then you might want something else. Remember, RebbiÂs room is something like 11x10. What's your goal? Animal house, or musicality in a small room? But also remember that large movie venues were filled with sound using old, low powered Western Electric amps. Rebbi, Eric Alexander is a special designer/builder. His Tekton likely would suit you. My brother has the DeCapo's (your model) as well as Harbeth HL5. I've listened to a number of Omega's, nice workmanship, but to my ears not up to the Tekton, hence, I purchased the Tekton 4.5. I hate to keep banging the Tekton drum, but they are outstanding, especially at their price points, but don't let their price points fool you, they play with the big boys, and better than many. Mapman, I don't recall ever hearing Tuetons; but I did love your old employer's place, Tech Hifi in Paramus, NJ. That is where I met John Rutan for the first time. As you probably know, John owns a great brick and mortar in Verona, NJ. I like to think of him as "The Gentleman of Verona". John, early on, helped me make some good musical choices. One of the good guys in the trade. |
Bill, You,I and everyone else agree on the importance of amp and speaker match. With the exception of "Hip Hop" bass reproduction Rebbi is thrilled with his sound. two amps used with the De Capo and his enjoyment markedly increased with his AN Kit amp.Why get rid of a wonderful amp to maybe find some SS or PP that "might" duplicate what he clearly already has? Why risk that? He just needs a more efficient speaker with this fine amp. He'll then be able to play any musuc he wants just as I, Jet,Mikirob and many others are doing.It's as if he's 90% positive and 10% negative and all the focus gravitates to the 1/10 fraction, ignoring the great 9/10. Human nature I suppose. More efficient speaker and the small problem is solved. Interesting discussion. Thanks, |
From reviewer Tim Smith: So what do the M-Lores sound like? They donÂt really have a distinct signature. They are more or less neutral. Seamless and well balanced. They can sound relaxed. They can sound energetic. They can sound warm if the source material is warm. The M-Lores image wonderfully. Given their low height, I thought I might elevate them on paving stones. There was no need. The sweet spot is large, left to right and vertically too. Room placement is not difficult. I have mine six to eight feet from rear walls and the bass output is prodigious, even with tube amps. The sound was just as good when they were closer to the walls. The M-Lores are detailed without being bright. They are fast: the opening of the second movement of RavelÂs Piano Concerto in G will jolt you out of your seat! Holy dynamic swings, Batman! And speaking of one notorious bat man, Calvin Broadus driving backbeat will glue you to your seat. This amp loves rap and reggae. Peter ToshÂs ÂMystic Man is electrifying through these speakers. From the sublime to the ridiculous, the M-Lores can do it all. They can capture Louis LortieÂs hypnotic reading of Debussy; they can bang out with Snoop D. O. Double G. Sorry, Snoop Lion. |
I agree with Charles, Mikirob and Al. You can only put yourself in Rebbi's shoes, the investment of time and love he put into the build and the fact he loves the sound of the amp. In addition it is probably the path of least resistance to sell the Decapo which won't be difficult and find a much more efficient speaker. In this way he will be out of pocket much less if anything. The 60 day trial period for the Tekton Lores may be a good place to start. |
More from Tim Smith: These small speakers are a bass-headÂs dream. They are fast and rhythmic. Even with a single-ended tube amp putting out 5 watts, they have floor-rattling bass. They handle Steve SwallowÂs electric bass with aplomb; Brian RitchieÂs bass on ÂPlease Do Not Go (Violent Femmes, self-titled LP, Slash Records) has never sounded so taut, so dry, so textured, so nuanced, so visceral. I listened through the Audio Research LS17 and Wyred4Sound SX-1000 monos. It was breathtaking, among the very best recorded sound I have heardÂanywhere, anytime. I had the same reaction when I listened to The Jimmy Giuffre 4′s LP ÂQuasar. This is an eclectic, electric, spacy, funkadelic jazz recording that has languished in obscurity for too long. It deserves to be seen on par with Herbie HancockÂs classics ÂMwandishi and ÂSextant. |
And just a little more from Tim Smith: The M-Lores are so good, I almost sold my Harbeth Compact 7s. The 7s, including their dedicated Skylan stands, cost more than four times as much as the M-Lores. In some ways (bass, the ability to play loud, dynamic swings), the M-Lores are better; in most ways, itÂs a tie. For a good month after receiving my Lores, I was under the spell of Tektonite for many a night, and my Harbeths stood lonely in the corner of my man cave. I keep the Harbeths because they nail vocals and the sweet tone of a guitar like no other speaker I know. Three cheers for Tekton Design for bringing a slice of the high end within reach of the majority of the population. As other reviewers have noted, the cost of the parts that go into this speaker, were they purchased straight off the shelf, would total over one-half the retail price. Not only are you avoiding lining the pockets of middlemen when you buy straight from Tekton Design; you are not being fleeced by the owner/designer either. These are fair prices. There cannot be much mark-up here. For this reason, and due to its addictive musicality, the M-Lore is surely one of the best buys in audio. Highly recommended. Yeah, me too, agree completely! Take the sixty (60) day trial. M-Lore. |
I agree with Grannyring up to a point. I feel whatever speaker you own and if you really like it; one has to find the right amp to match with it. I have owned many push pull tube amps, low and high power and have found that good single ended amps appear to be more natural and less processed than push pull. If Rebbi loves the DeCapo and single ended you can just find a parallel single ended that puts out 30 to 100 watts that will drive that speaker. Yes they are more pricey but you have to decide on your priorities. Another example is that a speaker may present a load that goes down to 2 ohms in the 40 to 200hz range. This would put a strain on any tube amp push pull or not. In this case a good solid state amp would drive the speaker better in that upper bass range. The other alternative would be to place a great subwoofer that has servo control of the woofer and room correction with that speaker and a single ended and get the best out of both worlds. There are many ways to skin the cat. Personally once I was hit by the single ended bug I can't look back. I feel the amp is just as important as the speaker for the right magic. Single ended does things that I have never heard with SS, OTL, and Push Pull and I have heard almost everything out there. I think Rebbi is going to have to make up his own mind on whether to go the speaker route or to upgrade his amp. I would not go the push pull route. Good luck Rebbi |
Read: Magnepans (3.7) AND TEKTON MEET PASS LABS, ODYSSEY, JOB, MERRILL, RED WINE AUDIO, FIRST WATT AND VITUS AUDIO: From Confessions of a Part-Time Audiophile Yeah, according to the article, Tekton (Pendragon and Seas) can go head-to-head, toe-to-toe with about any speaker you may like using amps wearing big-boy pants. Bottom line, according to Scott Hull: they are excellent. |
Rebbi, If it was me, I'd keep your magnificent AN Kit 1 and DeCapo's. Do you really miss Tecno Synth bass in most of your listening? I'm usually happy with speakers that can capture the low E-string on a bass guitar. In your small room most Rock, classical, Jazz, voices, etc. should be excellent with terrific tone, timbre, naturalness, and all the other attributes of 300B sound. Why invest/spend huge amounts to capture synth bass techno sound at the expense of your other 98% listening? On another note, after reading all of this thread, my wife exclaimed, I am still building the AN amp, I love the sound of the 300B tube. So, there you have it, I'm one lucky dude. Coincident Dynamo in my office, soon to be Coincident 300B in my dedicated listening room and AN Kit-1 in the living room. Retirement is going to be fun. |
It's not about music being loud. Distortion always seems louder due to noise. The issue is the contraction and constriction of dynamics that come way before clipping. My 97db efficient, 12 ohm Coincident speakers played loud enough for me, but not well enough over a period of time. Gorgous music to be sure, but in the end the music was limited to jazz and vocals. It took time for me to notice this and more importantly, other more powerful amps made that easily apparent. You can get loud in your little room, but not the kind of expansive, at ease, fully dynamic sound that is possible with a better suited amp. Sure, you get beauty and tone with the right kinds of music, but not the full experience with many kinds of music. The right speaker for the amp will also work, but it also has to be the right speaker for Rebbi. It will be interesting to see where he lands. More than one way to accomplish a bit more flexibility in his system. All good points thus far. |
The who comment resonated with me. Zu's I heard demoed similar to Tecton did not deliver with Rush on a set. The zu admitted the set was underpowered for the task after the fact. He was demoing with classical and jazz fair that was better suited and that sounded fine. Many with sets likely do not care about that kind of music much. Ie music that relies more on power and impact than beauty to make its point. These were larger more full range zu speakers though. Smaller less extended models of moderate efficiency will be less challenged. Will they sound best on all kinds of music? Very good maybe but not best. It's all about choosing your compromise in many cases. If I were Reb I'd audition the Tektons. Little to,lose to try. Milk I was referring to Tektons not Teutons. That was my iPad spell checker doing the wrong thing. 😬😬😬 |
It is funny to me that only insane audiophiles like us could get so bent out of shape over less than stellar bass with some pop music recordings. My system rules with that kind of sound. It would drive me nuts to lose the ability to deliver it properly. If I didn't know better I would not care. Ignorance can be bliss!😯 |
"The issue is the contraction and constriction of dynamics that come way before clipping." I couldn't agree with this more and it has been my consistent impression in vast majority if not all systems using SET amplifiers. I've heard exactly two that overcame these limitations and they were both large horn systems. The real issue as best I can tell is that in most cases they are used with speakers that are WAY lacking sufficient efficiency to overcome these limitations. The bottom line is that this fact is overlooked by those that love the magic that they provide in the midrange. So in the end it is a question of what you can live with or what you can't live without. I still believe that in this case Rebbi should explore the options with the amp based on his committment and investment. |
Yep limited dynamics prior to clipping is exactly what I am talking about regarding set demos that sounded ok but not great. It is like having a Ferrari and never topping 60 mph. That's the trade off I see repeatedly with just a few watts except with very high efficiency horns capable of picking up the slack. It's about power and glory in music as opposed to beauty. I want it all! |
Tubegroover, I get the strong impression that the Tekton Lore could be a very viable alternative to a large horn speaker, Based on Mikirob's real life experiences and numerous reviews available. Of course their are other strong options(Audio Note speakers, but these are more money). Let's face it, as a diverse group of audiophiles, there is going to be no universal final agreement. I wouldn't expect it any other way. Mikirob, you and your wife are going to be in music lover's heaven with those three rooms, what a delight! I believe Rebbi received better sound with his amp than even he expected(just a gut feeling). Okay Rebbi we're all ready to read part 2 of your listening sessions. Charles, |
I always understood the latest discussion was about dynamics and not loudness. Being a bass player in Rock Bands as well as performing as a studio musician for a limited time I know dynamics and slam. I think that the Tim Smith articles on dynamics with the Tektons mirror my own experiences with the Tektons and low power tube amps including SET; they do dynamics startling well. If you want concert-level volume and dynamics in a normal house, or room have at it, pay the price of admission and be done with it. What we are discussing here is a family man with about 11x10 listening room, and like most people with a family, limited resources to allocate to the high-end of audio. I believe Rebbi has done a stellar job separating the chaff from the wheat demonstrating remarkable ability to put together an Everyman high-end system. We truly need more of that example. Suggestion for speakers ought to be of high quality all around, that best fit in with creating a properly balanced, synergistic system that also fits a budget. My audio bias falls in the camp of tone, tone, more tone, timbre, natural musical flow, richness, liquid sounds that get a piano right, as well as all the other instruments, just like real accoustic life, a good stage, coherence, natural decay, PRAT, male and female voice front and center with height and dimentionality, as well as all the other goodies. If I miss a smidgen of slam, ok, it costs too much, but the Tektons amongst others come close, very close. So given the goody bag cost which do you prefer to lose? |
It's not about music being loud. Distortion always seems louder due to noise. The issue is the contraction and constriction of dynamics that come way before clipping. My 97db efficient, 12 ohm Coincident speakers played loud enough for me, but not well enough over a period of time. Gorgous music to be sure, but in the end the music was limited to jazz and vocals. It took time for me to notice this and more importantly, other more powerful amps made that easily apparent. You can get loud in your little room, but not the kind of expansive, at ease, fully dynamic sound that is possible with a better suited amp. Sure, you get beauty and tone with the right kinds of music, but not the full experience with many kinds of music. The right speaker for the amp will also work, but it also has to be the right speaker for Rebbi. It will be interesting to see where he lands. More than one way to accomplish a bit more flexibility in his system. All good points thus far. |
I was reading about the Tektons lore. Seems like a great value speaker worth a try. Little to lose trying. I think it has a good chance of fitting the bill for Rebbi. Of course fitting the bill and loving the sound are not the same. No way to know without trying. On paper I see no reason not to. The design using good quality tweeter. Large 10". Pro audio bass driver larger box and simple crossover checks all the boxes for me. As does the asking price. Interestingly the designer expresses his preference for high power amps still but seemingly should not be required if one is a tube amp lover. |
Mapman, I rarely listen to music above 78-84 db on my 90db efficient 8 ohm speakers. I am driving them with two sets of Monoblock amps. I swap them out from time to time. The first set is a homemade tube PP set that sound marvelous. But, my main set are 300 watt SS amps and one could say that is complete overkill in my modest sized room at my low listening levels. I have found that the sense of ease and flow is tremendous with the amplifiers barely breaking a sweat. Paired with my tricked out TRL Dude tubed preamp and Romulus tubed CD player I am getting that SET like sound. I have the latest version of the Trl Samson amps with some nice new improvements. The amps are very open and deliver see through transparency and in the end just reveal the strengths of my pre and CD player. My speakers are uber musical and the total system just delivers that SET like sound that is intoxicating without SET limitations. I will acknowledge it has taken some effort and learnings to get to this point. Many things have helped such as..... - using great solid core silver wire throughout the system - speaker placement, speaker placement, speaker placement - room treatment.......very important - tricking out my preamp removing all electrolytic caps in the power supply, battery powered filament heaters and a few other things - the right speaker with a simple crossover network All these things do indeed deliver a SET like sound that is immediate, intimate and all together lovely, lively and engaging. I am probably using 1/10 of the power available in my amps! Ha! But it works very well indeed. |
I agree a great amp can only be great if not "breaking a sweat". My 500 w/ch bel canto amps were acquired mainly for my large ohm f5 speakers in my larger room. I dabbled with various lower power amps for awhile. These are the ones that handle the job effortlessly and the music reflects that. I also run the other smaller less demanding speakers in various rooms concurrently of the same amps. They are overkill perhaps for all the rest but prefer to think of that as my insurance policy. All my speakers get driven to their max. Including the small more tube amp friendly triangles. These always excel at lower to moderate volume and that is the case these days more than ever. I would like to do the tube amp experiment with those someday not that I feel the need but as an experiment. In that I have heard many tube systems including a few sets but never owned one plus I find all the various technologies fascinating...different recipes for a favorite dish in essence. But you can never tell what a pair of speakers are capable of until they are driven effortlessly to their max. The same might be said for an amp as well I suppose if one prefers to look at it that way. |
One ironic point in this discussion is power output and its stated benefit . Rebbi had high power Bel Canto amps and wasn't impressed. He says the lower power Manley tube amp was much better. Now the AN 300b has brought him the best overall sound he's ever had in his home. Food for thought, quality trumps quantity sometimes. |
Charles, Yes, quantity does not equal quality  so much of it is about the interaction between the speaker, the amplifier and the room. When I first started to get back into audio actively in the mid-2000's, I sold my 1986- era PS Audio Elite + (70 W per channel integrated, all hardwired) and bought a Unison Unico (used) hybrid, integrated amp with a tubed input stage and a transistor output stage. It was actually a beautiful amp. But by that point I had been through several different kinds of speakers and had Ohm Walsh 100's, which do like power. At this point I was heavily into horse trading on Audiogon, and picked up a Bel Canto S300 power amp (Class D) which I paired with a used Manley Shrimp tube preamp, on the theory that the preamp would "warm-up" the sound of the solid-state power amp. By this point I had moved on to a pair of Merlin monitors, the TSM-MMI's. These are voiced with tube amplification, or so the word is on the street, so it was at that point that I sold the class D amp and picked up the Manley Mahi mono-blocks. These sounded much, much nicer with the Merlin speakers then the class DM had. So yes, I have generally let my speaker choice drive the choice of power, but this time around it may just be different because this new amp is so impressive. |
Rebbi What's fascinating is 8 watts of high quality is impressing you to this degree on a speaker that's in reality only 86~87 db! Think what the amp will achieve with 93 db or higher and a high or flatter impedance load, Oh my! You have not heard the full potential of your SET despite how pleased you are with it currently. That is the beauty of your situation. |
Mikirob, I think at some point along the way we adhere to the more power is better mantra. I sure did at one point. We live and learn and find what's best for are individual needs. At one time I owned a Symphonic Line amplifier. A well regarded SS amp. You know what? It was good. My current SET has just moved me to an entirely higher level plain and simple. This is why I can relate to what Rebbi is just discovering now. I understand his great joy with his wonderful amp. |
It is, however, possible to go too low in power. I started with a 45SET and then a 2a3 before settling on a 300b amp. My very long speaker cable runs may have had something to do with the fact that the 45 and 2a3 sounded thin despite the fact that the ZuDefs have built-in amps to power the bass drivers. One of the beauties of this hobby is the willingness of small companies to communicate directly with their customers. As Rebbi has learned, there is nothing better than a conversation with a designer/manufacturer who wants a happy customer. Sean Casey at Zu has been unfailingly helpful and gracious with his time. Clearly the same can be said for many others. |
I can't imagine what it would cost to ship these babies from Cyprus (the location of the seller) to the US, but look. Good price, though (before shipping)! |
Rebbi, Charles is right as Almarg pointed out, the DeCapo's are likely 86-87db. Get a true 93db or above and everything will get much, much better. And GSM is also correct with his observation that guys like the Zu fellows, Eric at Tekton and many other smaller company designers/manufacturers bust their collective behinds to stand by their product and help their customers. It's daunting, many fail despite good quality products. At any rare, quality over quantity for me and I still am antsy to read Rebbi's further observation and comments. |
The it's worth noting the beyond the clipping issue the high output impedance of a set makes it more susceptible to impedance swings. To get the best performance in terms of tonality you must have higher impedance speakers. Has anyone seen an impedance curve for Tekton? An 8 ohm rating is a good start but not the whole story. Speakers truly designed for sets tend to have impedances that are more continuously higher above 8 ohm I think. Coincidents are a good example. The key in terms of clipping though is to not have low impedance at the lower frequencies. Another key thing with a set is that it distorts with second order harmonics which are not unpleasant to the ear. It also operates mainly in class a which is known to have certain sonic benefits compared to class b. Class d is a totally different beast to compare. Ss amps have their own set (no pun) of sins but I'm not sure there is any basis to say that a set amp is inherently of any higher quality than any other. It all depends on ones criteria for determine quality I suppose. And of corse quality varies widely within any amplifier category. |
