Best turntable for the buck

After reading a few reviews, I have serious doubts about the Technics  turntable.

I’m looking further, to see if I can find something superior to what I have in the 4K price range.
 

@nferre66,

I have owned nearly all those tables you mentioned, like you, I have set up tt's since the late sixties so I think I qualify for set up. Your analogy for not liking the Sota makes no sense to me, but to each his own. I've owned Technics, not overly impressed. Any Technics I ever listened to wasn't remotely close to the Sota I have. But as you say, just my opinion too.

I have a VPI Aries Scout and enjoy it. No problems no issues.

I think the screw down clamp enhances playback.

I would contact John Rutan and get his take on this. He knows your system and can recommend the best path forward, IMHO.

Bob

Make sure you have the turntable isolated properly, especially if you are on a suspended floor. My P8 is on a wall shelf, and it sits on a Townshend seismic platform. Sound improvement was huge with the Townshend, and foot falls non existent when I put it on a wall shelf.

There is a reason Rega sells shelves. Their tables sound better when they sit on them. Although I bought a Project shelf for a little over half the price :-)

@mr_m Setup issues are the standard response when someone doesn’t like something. I used to be in the business and have set up hundreds of turntables.

Over the years, I found myself using it less and less until it dawned in me that it was just a dust collector. I found myself staring at my album collection one day and realized I hadn’t played a record in 6 months.

I bought a cheap turntable just to see if it was the turntable or me. It was the turntable. I used that cheap table more in one year than the SOTA in 10. I gave that turntable away (a Pioneer PLX-1000) to someone new to the hobby.

Then a Rega P3, then 4 or so years with a MoFi UltraDeck. Finally a couple of months with the Technics SL-1210 GR and a few weeks with the G.

Looking back I could have purchased an original 1200 back when I bought the SOTA. Do they sound like the G? Nope, not even close. But I’ve done on air radio work so I know them well. I would have had a better/more reliably consistent table for much less money. It’s likely that I wouldn’t have quit playing my records. But it all worked out in the end. Luckily because of folks on the internet I was able to rid myself of the SOTA quickly and for a good price (for me- the buyer, not so much.)

If you like yours, great. But at $4k there are lots of options. I personally think SOTA should be approached without rose tinted glasses and with caution. But that’s just my opinion.

I would struggle with the idea that if a individual struggles to feel impressed by a TT, the set up of the TT is solely the cause of the deficiency of the SQ.

I have been a user of a Belt Drive TT, Idler Drive TT’s and Direct Drive TT’s.

My methods used for the mounting of a TT have progressed over the years, to utilise methods that are to my assessment, substantially improved over previous methods used.

I still own all three of the different motor drive TT’s but am no longer owning a very heavy massy plinth Idler Drive that was used to supersede the use of the the Belt Drive many years ago.

All TT’s get a spin, of which the Belt Drive is the least used, it does not present in a way that is an attractor to me, even though it replays music that is quite fine and at times even enjoyable.

I find the Idler Drive as a comparative to a Belt Drive to be much more attractive, the presentation from the Idler Drive is ’up my street’ and I look forward to hearing the various versions that are available to me.

I don’t see the point in a Belt Drive to Direct Drive comparison in my system, the DD is for myself the most attractive when compared to an Idler Drive, the presentation from a DD TT ’floats my boat’. I go out of my way to hear these in use in their various guises and in differing set ups. The ones I am encountering all delivery the goods in a manner I settle with very quickly.

IMO, the thread has leaned towards the merits of a DD TT and I understand why this can be a very good thing.

As always, I encourage nobody to purchase blind using recommendation only, the least should be a decision made following a demonstration in a unfamiliar system.

The best option being a demonstration in the owned system.

The skeletal Rega 8 is very good.

I heard one last year at a show and was surprised at how much better than any Rega 3 it was.

Inky black silences and rock solid pitch and timing.

No Rega 3 did that, and that’s hardly surprising is it?

That said, the near textbook perfect, virtually indestructible DD Technics 1200G easily beats it for sheer convenience.

Plus you’ll never ever regret its removable headshell either.

It would be nice to own both, but if it had to be one, I’d have the Technics.

Thorens TD 140, well made, solid, a classic, and when you come to your senses and go digital you’ll get your money back.

VPI is a consideration. Try & demo it in your system.

+1 for George Merrill's Super Poly 

Table with a MC Cartridge & Ron Sutherland's

Phono Loco and you won't look back.

As mentioned,  the Well Tempered & Sota

Star Sapphire are great tables. Setup is always key. 

Best of luck.

This store always seems to have stock when others don't.

https://valueelectronics.com/product/technics-sl-1200g/

My dealer is trying to talk me into a VPI turntable (of course because he doesn’t carry Technics, although he can get it.)
Anybody have any love for VPI?

@nferre66,

If you "hated" the Sota, then I believe your set up of it was suspect...

@nferre66

And... I guess... there is very little difference in the sound of cartridges - or - at least you don’t have to spend a fortune to obtain good sound from some of them.

Frank Schroeder opened my eyes in one of his interviews on YouTube in which he noted that the two best sounding cartridges were: Denon 103 and the
AudioTechnica 1895.

Now, I’m sure his point was... you don’t have to "mortgage the house" to obtain good sound quality from a cartridge. But... in listening to various cartridges it does seem that those two sound about as good as the Lyra Delos, which is far, far more costly. The "sweet spot" seems to be in the $400-$1000 range - with those two competing quite well.

Finding that "sweet spot" may be a bit more challenging with phono stages - but - I’m sure it can be found. Like you I have been drawn to the Sutherland phono stages, but that’s still a bit more than I’d like to spend.

@rvpiano If you do, Music Direct has the all black 1210G in stock.

My wife didn’t get it- until she heard it.

The Techniques is a game changer for me. It seems to fit every qualification, including the price.
Now, if I can only find a way to get it past my wife!

@bassdude You don’t have to break the bank on a cartridge to get the G sounding killer. I’m running mine with a Grado Gold3. Sounds stunning.

I probably went a bit overboard on my phono stage- a Sutherland Duo, but my goal is to build my last system. I’m in a good place.

@nferre66

Yeah... I’ve got a Linn Sondek LP12... and... I think I’ll opt for the 1200G too, for the reasons Guttenberg and others have noted. Just want good sound... without the hassles.

And... as you likely have seen in my related posts... I was debating the 1200GR vs 1200G - but - comments like yours have pretty well "moved the needle" to the 1200G.

Now... I just have to come up with the best value (cost/performance) in a phono stage and cartridge - which may be a little more difficult to determine.

@bassdude I’ve seen that video and it’s spot on.

I actually tried to be kind to my wallet and started with the GR. It is noticeably brighter than the G, and doesn’t have the low frequency extension of the G either.

The G is worth every penny and then some.

@nferre66

... makes a good point... Do you want good sound with little fuss... or... the frustrations of pursuing "audio nirvana" with a "finicky" TT?!?  This guy's had both - and he made his choice.  Your choice...

There is a glaring omission from the recommendations- the Technics SL-1200/1210 G.

I’m a former Rega and Sota owner. I see the recommendations for the exact same Sota that I owned and just cringe. I hated mine.

The Technics offers everything I value, incredible sound quality, amazing build quality, it’s easy to set up and won’t go out of adjustment. I’ve bought my last turntable.

@audioguy85 

+1 on the Music Hall products, I purchased a used mmf-5.3 for all the reasons you listed. Solved all my vinyl playback issues and looks great on the shelf. 

Upscale offers the Feickert Volare with Origin Live tonearm and Ultratracker cartridge installed for a package price of 4.3k. Surely something like that would work.

For the "money", the Music Hall mmf-7.3 cannot be beat. Just look at what you get for your money. Split plinth, seperate motor, electronic speed control, 9cc tonearm, azimuth and Vta adjustable, acrylic platter, round profile belt, quality phono cables, quality spin on/threaded record clamp, built in level, dust cover, tip toe feet, beautiful real walnut finish (optional), Ortofon 2nd from the top 2m Bronze cartridge. The price has increases recently, and is now generally a 2k turntable... I love mine. Pair this table/cartridge combo with a good tubed phono preamp and it sounds splendid. Not to mention, the turntable looks awesome, if that at all matters....

The interaction with Vinyl does not need to be lost entirely.

I am not with a System in use at present, my home is to be worked on and most possessions are readying themselves for a period of storage.

Through being member of a HiFI Group, I am regularly invited to experience in both Analogue and Digital Equipment demonstrations. Additionally there is on occasions new unfamiliar equipment made available for broadening the experiences being encountered.

I am happy to Purchase New Music Recordings to be used at the meetings, and if well received, leave them as loaned music for the group to use on their own systems, or used when I am absent from a meeting.

The interaction with the groups arranged events, has enables myself to encounter items of equipment, I would recommend to others, but also allow for my discovering equipment, I have now put onto a shortlist to be trialed on the home system when reinstated for regular use. These are curve ball moments, and were not anticipated to leave such strong positive impressions, to the point where an item might find itself a place on the rack.      

Tomic601,

As much as I would love to improve my analog side, I don’t think I have the level of commitment and resources that it takes. I don’t even trust myself to install a cartridge, no less a tone arm. So I think I’ll pass on a new setup.

Ego not inflated a bit Tim and Brian, and thanks for the kind words :-)

I have decent gear on the digital, LP and RtR fronts, so for me anyway….assessment of relative strengths and weaknesses AND trying to address has a been a catalyst for competitive improvement across all 3. I do understand that the various formats do compete for $$$. Ultimately that was why i sold the SOTA as trying to maintain all the analog bits in two places, was too much.

@rvpiano what did you decide to do ?
best to all

Jim

Another to consider is a Dr Feickert Volare with Origin Live arm, $4K without cartridge.  It is smaller than a SOTA and requires an isolated platform.  It is dead quiet in operation (more quiet than the SOTA).

I've owned 2 SOTA's over the last 35 years, including my current Star III/SME V combination - bought new.  They are wonderful tables with a fantastic suspension, just not as quiet in my experience as some other very good units.

Pros and cons, as usual, in this price segment.

Perhaps a Rega Fono MC phono preamp (roughly $550) or a Rega Aria MM/MC phono preamp (roughly $1,700) and the rest of your budget spent on the best MC cartridge you can find might improve things. Personally, I'd get a Linn Majik LP12, as previously suggested, and start the inevitable climb up the Linn ladder.

Good for you, have fun. I’ll do the same….and I do listen to all the various formats….but vinyl will always be preferred. It just sounds right and more ‘real’ to me.
 

As the kids used to say, ‘it’s all good’.

@bkeske

”And I don’t care what anyone says, for me, vinyl is simply magical, and will always be better than my digital source.”

I have used vinyl for over 50 years and built ever better vinyl rigs to get the very best out of it. Until my digital rig bested it. My rig is shown under my UserID. Paradigms shift.

Not that it’s bad, but I want to look for  something that will significantly improve the sound of my current setup. 
Will about a 4K investment do that?

I'm sure you're considering the Rega Planar 8 w/ Ania.

Agreed 👍🏼 (But let’s not let it go to his head 😁 )

@bkeske ,

I know Jim somewhat personally, and I don't think you will find a more altruistic gentleman. :-)

@mr_m 

😁 you must have bought @tomic601 ‘s SOTA. You definitely got a great deal if so. Jim helped me out greatly when I dove into my SOTA  Sapphire purchase.

And I don’t care what anyone says, for me, vinyl is simply magical, and will always be better than my digital source. I will definitely enjoy it while I can. Sure, age may be a factor in that becoming a primary source, some day. But nobody can convince me digital will be better than my records. You just won’t win that argument.

A refurbished Sota Sapphire is definitely the way to go. I have one with a modified Sumiko FT-3 tonearm. Bought it from a friend who is one of the more distinguished members of the A'gon community!

This is the best tt I ever owned. Easily surpasses the SQ of a Well-Tempered tt I had. $4000 should get you a refurb Sapphire and decent tonearm. IMHO :-)

As was mentioned earlier, it is much easier to build a decent digital system and for people who do not have large record collections optimizing the digital side is a much safer investment, then buy music. I love my record collection and have thousands of records dating back to the 60s. But, vinyl is a very deep rabbit hole and given that my generation is now retiring and has lots of money to blow the pricing is nearing ridiculous. There are obvious aspects in which vinyl can not dream of competing, signal to noise ratio and measured distortion are two. People without large collections would be better off sticking to digital. If you have an unstoppable urge to collect records, love turning Allen wrenches and have money to burn then by all means join the club. There are people who were born to collect records sort of like baseball cards:-)

I realize mine is a fringe/lunatic recommendation, but I would get a VPI HW-19 MK.3 or Aries (original), put on it a Zeta arm, and mount a London Super Gold w/Decapod on its headshell. That combo will bring your LP’s to LIFE!

The London puts out 5mV’s, so no extra gain needed---40dB is more than enough. (The Schitt Mani 2 has a setting specifically for Decca/London’s---35dB). In fact, lower gain can result in greater headroom in your phono amp.

I think my query has been answered here. 
it’s apparent that $4000 is not going to bring my analog side to the level that I’m hoping for.
Thanks everyone for your help.

Well done @rvpiano - most people just “hope their way” along.

"Will about a 4K investment do that?"

Absolutely it will. Get a Kuzma Stabi S.

Improving on the performance of a Vinyl LP Source does require the consideration that a considerable outlay may be needed to acquire equipment that will noticeably surpass a already existing equipment.

The performance that is achieved as a result of the restructure of the system will hopefully be quite impressive and wanted to be maintained as a keeper.

In the field of Digital there are opportunities to produce a Digital Source that can compare to a Parity or Surpass a Vinyl presentation for the impression being made on the quality of the presentation.

With Digital it is quite possible to achieve this with an outlay that is less than the cost attached to a MC Cart' from certain Brands Middle to Upper Middle Models in the Cart' Range. 

With a budget of 4K and your reports that the in use Digital Source is capable of showing itself as a Betterment over the Vinyl LP Source, a small proportion of the 4K Budget allocated to the furthering of the performance of the Digital Source, might just provide a Digital Source that any selected Vinyl LP Source might fall short of in making an impression that is Parity during a comparison.     

I think my query has been answered here. 
it’s apparent that $4000 is not going to bring my analog side to the level that I’m hoping for.
Thanks everyone for your help.

I don't know if $4k will get you there. Digital does transparency and resolution pretty well at relatively lower price. Analog requires much higher expenditure than the $4k you're talking about. My digital surpassed my analog on transparency/resolution front many years ago, and this with aprox. $7k in tt and phono pre. To bring my analog up to my present digital will take at least $2k cartridge and $7-10K phono pre.

Sure you can improve what you have for $4k, but will that hold up in long run? You'll likely improve your digital in the future and analog will fall behind again, and that's assuming your $4k upgrade measures up to your present digital. I'm in same boat, and I'm going all in on vinyl in future, or simply give it up, no half measures will get me what I want. My take is unless one has funds to go first rate on both formats, concentrate on one or the other in short term, you can always do substantial upgrades for the other format at a later date.

@rvpiano

bkeske,

‘Do you have the Saphire VI?
‘Does it require an arm separately?
‘The price is right.

I bought a used Model III from a gentleman here on Audiogon. It was a table only, so I purchased a new arm. I was lucky enough to get a Jelco S850 MK II when they were still available. The arm actually cost me more than the table. Then, at the time, bought a decent tone arm cable, a Soundsmith Zephyr cart followed a couple months later, which is very nice, but now have a Soundsmith MIMC star lo-output after purchasing a Hagerman Trumpet tube phono preamp a year later (was actually using a Schiit Mani up until then). Then replaced the stock tubes in the Hagerman with some nice old stock tubes, and just recently a purchased separate linear power supply for it. All this together has created a pretty nice rig I am enjoying immensely. Was all of it necessary, no, but after you get started, you simply want to make it better.

So, yes, add it all up, and a nice investment cost-wise, but very much worth it IMO, and many of the additions were added over time, not all at once. Probably about a 3.6K initial investment to get started. But, but over time, about 6K spent to date (including another back-up cart and mono cart).

And, as it is a model III, it will need sent to SOTA soon for an upgrade to min. V specs and restoration. So probably another 1-1.5k investment, and I will do it gladly.

When I started down this path, I would have told you no way would I spend 2K on a vinyl rig. Well, I’m way over that, and happy. But, to be honest, this is small change in the world of higher end vinyl rigs, (some cartridges cost as much as my investment to date), but I think I’ve done well putting together a relative bargain set-up which works incredibly well, and sounds fantastic.

Sota Sapphire hands down. There is no other $3500 turntable that comes close to the Sapphire's level of performance.

I was keeping my trap shut as it would just be posted what I own, but have to believe it would be hard to beat the Sapphire for the $.

Me too.

I was looking at new tables, but in the end decided to just overhaul the Sapphire with the new motor/controller/etc.
The OP mentioned $4k budget, and the parts for the overhaul gobble up half of that.
But it sound pretty good at the moment, as those parts are in transit. So it is a bit of peeling the onion.

With a good arm, the choice of carts is almost endless. And of course a good phono pre.

A solid choice as a platform, if I do say so my biased self.

@rvpiano When playing classical, my vinyl rig is better than anything I have on the digital side in terms of 3 dimensionality, imaging, and soundstage. Tone and natural presentation is incredible as well, that is so important for acoustic instruments. It just ‘feels’ more real to me

Mine too, however my digital side is on the Best Buy side.

I have always liked the SOTA Sapphire, you can possibly get a refurbished table direct from SOTA. Put Origin Live arm on it and away you go. SOTA carry a variety of arms and can properly fit your arm board.

There are better arm choices than OL… IMO.
Certainly there are arms that are easier to align/adjust/set-up.

Sounds like you want in to the vinyl arena. I used to own a Rega… your criticism is the same as I would have made… I would have said too much noise resulting in decreased transparent soundstage. I have not been a fan of Rega since I owned one… the higher level ones are supposed to be better.

You might think about a used Linn LP12  or I think you could get a new Majik without cartridge for about the price you are looking at. I recommend getting one from a dealer… like I would most turntables.

I own a new LP12. Incredible transparency. One of the amazing things about Linn, any Linn TT, is you can upgrade them all the way up to the current top of the line by small steps. They have been Top performers… continuing to advance for many decades while many of their predecessors have fallen behind. 
 

Anyway, I thing the Majik really fits the bill for you.

bkeske, 

‘Do you have the Saphire VI?
‘Does it require an arm separately? 
‘The price is right.

@tomic601

+3

I was keeping my trap shut as it would just be posted what I own, but have to believe it would be hard to beat the Sapphire for the $.

With a good arm, the choice of carts is almost endless. And of course a good phono pre.

A solid choice as a platform, if I do say so my biased self.

@rvpiano When playing classical, my vinyl rig is better than anything I have on the digital side in terms of 3 dimensionality, imaging, and soundstage. Tone and natural presentation is incredible as well, that is so important for acoustic instruments. It just ‘feels’ more real to me.