@sandthemall very nice. I emailed them about changing the 220pf to 100pf and was told no on that. I'd be curious to compare the Trumpet to the Decware.
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@tablejockey since capacitance affects the sound I don't see how it's a non issue. I spent way more for low cap phono cables which I would not have done if I didn't have to. MM/MI carts sounds can be changed by cap. I'm not running MC but maybe in the future I will. |
@avanti1960 there's no doubt the Sutherland is good. Maybe even great. I guess it's not exciting for what ever reason. Sounds dumb I agree. It's nothing to look at and by all accounts sounds like nothing. I can get one used so I'm debating it. If it doesn't excite me I can sell for what I bought for.
my OCD is in overdrive haha |
For under $2200, the Sutherland Insight with LPS is excellent and you'll have a few bucks left over for records. Extremely quiet and adjustable in case you decide to go for a MC cartridge. No extra circuitry, no on/off switch. Ron is a very nice, patient guy and not salesy at all. I asked him once about upgrading and he told me to just enjoy the Insight. He was very big on the LPS though that was recently offered as an option. It exists in a much more expensive model (I think the DUO). All he does is phono stages. That counts for something. |
@dhite71 thanks I will look into that depending on how I feel about the Sutherland. |
For what it's worth, I just swapped out my Manley Chinook SE with Telefunken nos tubes for a used Zesto Andros PS1 phono preamp with JJ gold pin tubes at around $2,000 and my experience is that the Zesto has a wider Soundstage with a little more depth and detail overall. While built around 2014, it is still a great phono and has received amazing reviews. List price back then was around $4,000. Hope this helps and surprised the Audiogon community doesn't consider this a great phono or hasn't really discussed its merits. |
I love my Wright Sound 200 wpc that I acquired used few years ago. With good tubes it's super quiet and smooth, and there's dual mono adjustable gain up to 66db. Works great with my HO Grado Sonata. The downside is that inputs and outputs are on opposite sides of the box, so it's got science lab vibes on my cabinet. I want to try the tube phono stage from Aric Audio. Just under $2k. Similar design, it seems, just looks like a little 'more'. |
I'm going to go WAY out into left field here...... but please don't laugh too hard. I picked up a Soulution 550 for 1/3 of a new one and thought that was it. Well.... I had an old GAS Thaedra preamp that Mike at GAS Audio had modified. To make a very long story very short, I sold the Solution, got another Thaedra (that GAS Audio has now) as well as a Rega Planar 10/Aphelion 2 with no $ out of pocket. Just using the phono section from the Thaedra into my Virgo III pre actually, for me, sounds REALLY good. Do a little research. A Thaedra plus rebuild will be $1200ish. |
Before making your final decision you may want to figure out your long term cartridge plan. More than any other link in the stereo signal chain, the cart-phono stage synergy is most important (not that others aren't critical). For example, if you end up with a very low output MC, the new Sutherland model at $1400 may be your best bet, the TZ Vibe. One nice thing about that option is that you don't have to worry about the load setting. It uses some of the tech of his higher end models. |
@sokogear yes you re very correct. I admittedly don't know where my cart journey is headed. I currently have a Nag 150 w/ the 200 (Boron) stylus. I like it but there's obviously better. I'd like a Nag 500 and to try a Goldring 1042, Garrott and some tigress. I'll eventually end up going MC at sound point but who knows when.
for now an excellent MM preamp is the goal. I have a used 20/20 coming because the price was low s d I can resell it if it's not for me. I had been set on a Decware but the 7 month build times are now 11+ months (and there's 800 people further back on the list). I've soured on the whole experience so I decided to see what else I should research into oblivion and possibly cancel the order.
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Not to turn this into a cartridge discussion, but part of the reason I have a van den Hul MC One Special cartridge is the fact that he also makes excellent phono stages (and the cartridge is very natural, clean and transparent sounding with a very long lasting stylus). Synergy is great. My holy grail end game phono stage is the van den Hul Grail (I kid you not). Can't justify the expense at this point, but you never know if I hit the lottery or find a great deal on a a used one. A new one would cost more than my table, suspension,shelf, cart, phono stage and its suspension and interconnect and power conditioner combination from a list price stand point, so it would have to be a killer deal on a used one, which I have never seen. Other than Rega and Linn, I am not aware of anyone else who makes both products, and I already have Rega's P8. I'm not that much of a Rega fan to go the full Rega analogue route and think Linn has lost their way, at least in the US. I am a big believer of KISS with less adjustments, connections, cables, etc. which is also why the Graill appeals to me. |
@johnto P5xe? |
feel free to be excited. the 20/20 sounds clean, dynamic, airy and energetic. good for all types of cartridges. possibly better suited to a tube system or a more laid back cartridge and turntable, high mass belt drive . an all solid state system may benefit more from a tube phono stage. what phono preamp do you have now? |
@avanti1960 For the last like 5 years I have been using the Lounge LCR MKIII. It sounds fine and I have no issue with it. I forget about it sometimes but its not an endgame piece. Its never been upgraded and was bought when it was the darling of another forum.
It will go into a Quicksilver Linestage Preamp (12AT7 version with Mullard CV 4024s) and into an Odyssey Khartago (with upgrades). Phono and interconnects are Audio Envy (speaker cables to come soon but currently Morrow SP-4's) |
@nwres Definitely thread that up once you have it. I am on an unofficial waiting list and am very interested in the Don Sachs. |
Easy -- PS Audio Stellar phono pre. Okay, it's $2,499, so it's a little above your ceiling. But this is the one Michael Fremer of Stereophile said should be considered by anyone planning to buy a phono pre AT ANY PRICE. And that's a guy who normally uses 5 and 6-figure phone pre's. I bought one and compared it to my Lamm LP 2 tube phono pre -- and immediately sold the Lamm for twice the cost of the PS Stellar. |
With his highly recommended LPS, the Sutherland 20/20 is $2650 - the insight with LPS is $1750 and an excellent phono stage and will meet the $2200 criteria. You may be able to get an Insight used for $8-900 and then add the LPS for $350, which represents tremendous value. It might be hard to find a used 20/20, but if you can, it should be under $2200 by a good bit,and adding the LPS is easier as it is in a separate box, whereas in the Insight, there is an internal board swap (I did myself with assistance from Ron over the phone). He is a great guy.. |
Quick note and not to derail my own thread.
20/20 arrived today getting first listens. It’s been on roughly 2 hours before I got a disc on. It’s a used unit and no idea how much time is on it already. It may have the new top as it was easy to get on and off. Aurally, it’s interesting. Less mid bass but that seems to make the bass drum more pronounced. It could be the Lounge was smearing things in the midbass. Don’t know. Vocals however are for more centered and seem to sit in front of everything else, which is not something I’ve experienced before. Music also seems to emanate from beyond the width of the speakers. So I hear what reviewers have mentioned about wanting a touch more body to the sound, but it could also be those frequencies being more “organized”.
So far it has no problems with anything I’ve thrown at it, Gene Ammons, Napalm Death, Sonic Youth, Cramps, Godflesh, Peter Tosh, Muddy Waters, etc. It definitely has a more “hifi” feel to the sound as it’s very sharp and defined. |
@sokogear I was able to net a 20/20 at a great price. Impressed so far but hoping the midbass fills in some. what does the LPS bring to the sound? There doesn’t seem to be a consensus. |
@vonharaland so far I can say the things people rave about in the 20/20 are definitely true. Giving it a few Weeks to (hopefully) fill out the sound. |
The Lounge LCR has a huge bass hump in its response. It’s an incredibly inaccurate RIAA curve, so probably not fair to expect any other preamp to offer similar levels of midbass. The Lounge is a good example of why these days, I am weary of purchasing products from these small outfits basically operating out of a garage. I’ve had enough experience with such companies regarding product quality and performance to conclude that one is often better off buying from the big brands with established distribution and polished manufacturing processes.
Anyhow, your ears will eventually adjust to the new sound and no doubt you’ll conclude the 20/20 is a worthy upgrade. |
@helomech I figured as much. Honestly I really liked it. If the lounge had the detail and speed of the Sutherland I’d never upgrade.
The bummer is that the Lounge has been the oldest piece of gear and so voicing my system includes its sound. So it’s like 2 steps forward (speed and detail) and 1 step back (warmth). I hate buying gear. I truly hate it. |
@gochurchgo - the LPS cleans up the sound by lowering the noise from the power supply. Not that the standard one is bad, just that the LPS is excellent. Ron Sutherland told me that if I was his brother in law, he would tell me to get the LPS for the Insight. I am sure the same applies to the 20/20 although it is $450, probably because it comes in a separate box versus just a board. I’m not sure what kind of cord goes from the LPS to the main box, but I’m sure it doesn’t detract much if anything from the sound, versus it being internal like the Insight. My change was getting an external PS instead of the internal one in my Plinius Integrated Amp, which has an internally adjustable MM/MC switch. The dealer who sold me the Plinius (used) initially told me I would be very happy with the Insight or the 20/20, and I didn’t want to spend more on the PS than I did on the amp. I was lucky to find a pristine used Insight, but if I saw a used 20/20 back then, I might have gone for it. I guess initially he didn’t want to talk about a PS since I bought th Plinius when all I wanted was a new preamp he thought I would say forget it (which I probably would have). The Plinius PS worked fine, but the Insight sounds way better. All I can say is that from the second I plugged in the Insight, the difference was immediate. Then I fine tuned the load to match my cartridge and it got a little better. Sorry I don’t have all the audiophile buzzwords for the substantial improvement, I can just say it sounded much better. With every improvement I make, it is hard to say what did what, I just know when I remember a big difference, and when it is subtle if anything. I can’t say the sound quality improvement with the LPS was noticeable to me, but maybe that depends on your power source, and I use a good power conditioner. I trust Ron, and I am not as sensitive as some of the .very serious Audiogoners. If you decide to ever sell the 20/20, I am sure you would get most if not all of your $$ back for the LPS. |
@sokogear good to know thanks. |
The LPS was an add on for me, i had the 20 20 for a year or so before it became available. It added noticeable improvement in dynamics and energy and seemed to be slightly cleaner sounding. It did not seem to affect the tonal balance. To fill in the midbass have you looked at loading adjustments, reducing gain, reducing the length and capacitance of the cable to your turntable, all depending on your current cartridge? also not having been run in a while the 20 20 does need some re burn in time to charge the numerous filtering caps on the chassis. some say 200 hrs of power on time. |
I have been researching loading. Its a Nagaoka moving iron. Its predictably set to 40db @ 47k. I wondered if loading might help but HeavyMech is so right baout the Lounge. I found graphs from ASR and its big. Personally if I could have say 25% of the Lounge bump I'd be happy. But as he noted anything after the Lounge will take some getting used to.
I did spin a few records yesterday and I like all of what I hear. Ironically its now given my system some of that holographic sound I heard so much about. My tubed linestage didn't do that but the SS phono did. Go figure. But as I said, the Lounge is the last piece from the old system and so voicing has been done with the Lounge in it. So this changes the overall balance.Its more mid-heavy than I am used to but am letting it ride for now. Mt phono cables are the Audio Envy Phono Deluxe cables @ 1 meter long. The specs listed are:
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Since there is a used one on US Audio Mart for $2150, I would say the Coda 06x phono stage, one of my all time favorites at any price. Extremely quiet with great sound quality. I'll always have one in my systems. Actually listening to it now; SME 12A, Ortofon Cadenza Bronze, Coda 06x, 07x, No 8, Fyne F703. Probably still on US AM due to no reviews. |
