I’m building my first high fi system after being more of a portable audio person. I want to start with the speakers. Space is limited so bookshelf speakers are a must.
Preferences: Balanced and revealing with a hint of warmth. Midrange most important to get right over highs and lows Timbre is super important - I listen mostly to acoustic music especially jazz But I do need some bass as I also listen to some electronic music Smaller is better but SQ is most important A speaker that sounds good with different amps but also scalable with high quality sources Wide sweet spot - I wont have money for a great amp at first but want them to be scalable for later
These speakers have caught my eyes - any thoughts on them?
Ascend Sierra 2s - Ribbon = dispersion limitations? BMR Philharmonitor - See above. Also massive. Buchardt S400/S300 - Wary of the sudden hype train and limited info Silverline Minuet Grande - Limited info Reference 3A De Capo - This caught my eye as a potential endgame speaker if I could blow up my budget a little. But concerns about BE tweeter as well as some potential snake oil stuff (cryogenic treatment (!?)), exaggerated sensitivity claims and wonky measurements put me off.
What else should I be looking at?
Edit: I could have sworn I had <$2,000 in the title... Anyway, my budget is 2k.
In all things, buy what you personally like. Pay money to make your family and yourself happy, not reviewers and not me.
I will say that hearing things for yourself is critical.
My goal in life is not to buy $3,000 bottle of wine. It is to spend $30 for one I like more, and I can't do that if I see price tags and market acceptance as the overriding marks of quality and performance.
Having said all this, there are store brands I like and direct brands I like. Fritz is one of the latter. If you talk the former, Monitor Audio, Magico and Focal are some of the brands I tend to like.
Buchardt apparently took 5402 acoustic measurement points with a robotic nearfield scanner in making the waveguide for their new speakers, fwiw.
I'm leery of marketing based on fancy sounding processes though. Isn't the ear the ultimate arbitrator of a speakers worth, not the cool technology that went into it? Since SQ is so subjective, it's easy for our impression to be moved by claims of fancy technology ie snake oil. That's not to say R&D doesn't matter (I'm no luddite), but the ends justify the means, not the other way around IMO.
And at least judging by my research so far, a very good share of the most recommend SQ for buck speakers are smaller companies. Again admittedly second hand information, but these are other peoples ears and I don't see what bias they would have to favor these smaller brands a lot of the time.
As far as a luxury buying experience, that's not important to me. I want a low risk buying experience which to me means trying at home with the option of returning. Also a manufacturer who stands behind their product and I think small companies may tend to do that better in general (they have to to keep their heads above water).
But this is a tangent. I'm perfectly happy to buy from a large manufacturer if it seems like the best speaker for my preferences and dollar and I have a way to try it.
Fortunately we live in a time where there are many brands of amazing bookshelf speakers for under $2,000. And if you don't mind buying used, there are many more options. My MO with most purchases is to buy slightly used and get something high end for a great value. i think you are wise to get some nice speakers and they will only sound better as you improve your other gear.
I just upgraded to B&W 805's and they sound amazing! I have been listening to master recordings on Tidal this week and it has blown me away. I kept waiting for a deal and I got them for $1175 shipped on eBay. They look like new and sound great as well.
+1 on the Ascend Acoustics Sierra 2's. I tried several pairs of pretty serious bookshelf speakers (Monitor Audio GR10's, and GX100's - Dynaudio X12's, and Focus 160's) and the Sierra's came out on top. And they are on sale right now.
A couple of years ago I went through the same exercise looking for bookshelf speakers up to $2000.00 (Canadian). I took my son with me as I didn't want to trust my ears alone. For several weekends we tested everything we could get our hands on in our living area taking the same music with us to each session. When I started out I was sure I was going to end up with British brand speakers that had impressed me a few years before. I ended up buying "Paradigm Prestige 15 B" speakers. To this day anyone listening to these speakers in my home are blown away by the amazing quality and depth of sound that comes out of them. They cannot believe the music/sound is coming from just those 2 little speakers. Both my son and I kept going back to the paradigms, nothing else we listened to at the price range could touch them in our estimation. They are my forever speakers for music at this stage of my life.
KEF LS50 wired, i.e., without built-in plate amp and not the wireless version. But as with any bookshelf speakers, you'll need a subwoofer if you want low bass. You may be able to find a pair used for $850 - $1,000.
There are technical reasons why the LS50 sounds so good -- the dual-concentric driver acts as a single point source. This is the best possible design IMHO.
My goodness, reading through this thread I don't think some of you are able to sleep at night without the security of knowing your speakers were designed by a bunch of dudes in white lab coats using a combination of Kevlar, berillyum, adamantium, Clark W. Griswold's experimental cooking spray polymers, and some kind of fish paralyzer.
To the OP, I'd say buy used. And if you can hear a pair of Trenner & Friedl bookshelf speakers (either Sun or Art), it would behoove you to do so. An incredibly big and articulate sound in a small footprint.
Kosst, your killin’ me. Pick up the latest Stereophile. Don’t even open it. Just flip it over and look at the lovely Focal ad on the back cover.
So let me get this straight... John DeVore is an amateur. As are Sean Casey, Keith Aschenbrenner, Andreas Friedl, and all the other amateur designers who have speakers on the Stereophile Recommended Components list just because they use sourced drivers and then design their own motor assemblies, doping, phase plugs, etc. Got it.
Perhaps we should petition John Atkinson to change the name of Stereophile to "DIY Audio Monthly"?
Kosst..."Direct to consumer models depend entirely on aggressive advertising schemes..." Far from it. The vast majority of ID speaker companies spend practically nothing on advertising, let alone ’aggressive’ advertising. Most rely solely on their set ups at CES’s, and word of mouth from very satisfied customers. Lots of these guy such as Salk, Fritz, Ascend Acoustics, Philharmonic Audio to name a few have been around for years because they offer great sounding, quality products at reasonable prices, offer personalized service, and have a rabid following of happy customers who upgrade within the brand.
FTR: Wilson used not only Focal, but also a lot of Scanspeak. Some of the most expensive commercial speakers I know of use Scanspeak including B&O, Wilson, and Gryphon. Magico uses Scanspeak tweeter motors with custom diaphragms.
I have three pairs of speakers. Rogers LS3/5a in one bedroom (15ohm versions). Celestion SL700 in my master bedroom. And Zu Def4 in my living room. All three are great. I understand your concern that the drivers in the LS3/5a have never been updated; but sometimes a classic is a classic, and there were several versions manufactured by Rogers. The Celestion and Zu speakers best the LS3/5a in many ways. But given the OPs preferences, criteria, and limitations, I would put the LS3/5a on any shortlist.
I don't have experience with any of the speakers mentioned save for the KEF LS50. I was very pleased with them in a small listening area but needed more low-end. I had considered the KEF R300 but caught the LS50 on sale (back then) for $300 off making them $500 cheaper than the R300, which you can now get for around $1300.00. I also think the R300 (in walnut) look very nice.
On another note, I have an ancient pair of Jensen bookshelf speakers with 8" woofers that sound incredible, so you just never know....
I have the original De Capo and like them quite a lot. I have listened to the II and BE models and the newer xover and tweeter are not my cup of tea. God help me for the flaming to come but you should really listen to the KEF-LS50. I purchased for a 2nd system (actually the LS50W) and I am blown away. The mid-range is better than my Wilson's and John Atkinson of Stereophile magazine fame announced at RAF that he had replaced his B&W Silver Signatures with the LS50W.
For me, the KEF LS50 top end was better than my prior Revel Salon 1 (MSRP $20K). I am never selling the LS50. In a small room or second system it is superb.
Another small room speaker that I owned and is pretty good is the Audience 1+1 V3. You cannot put it on a bookshelf but it works well in a small room (dipole design).
Martin Logan's Motion 35XT's have treated me well. The folded motion tweeter of the XT sometimes errs on the bright side, but the Motion series has been versatile for music and movies. You can audition the series in the Magnolia room at Best Buy and compare the XT with the non XTs in the series.
The Motion 15 (or 16) also works well for a small room, and you could move them to the rear surround sound if you later decided to upgrade speakers or move to a bigger room. In my case, the 35XT now serve as rears after I purchased floorstanding speakers...(They are probably a little overkill for rears in my medium sized entertainment room).
Somewhat tempted by the Genelec M040s. Add a decent DAC and controller and you have what should be super transparent but listenable sound at about 2k total.
mofojo… the LS50W is great on rock but only at reasonable volume levels in a normal sized room. They are keepers for me and large improvement over my old B&W 805N and De Capo.
tinear123 you are missing one cool additonal trick, with the LS 50 wireless . Which is you can add a subwoofer.
If you add a subwoofer to the LS 50w they sound even better and fill up a large room even better.
The new Kef Kube 10 and 12 are very good sounding woofers and are dirt cheap at $599 and $699 respectively and they make a nice match with the LS 50 making a state of the art streaming/self amplified loudspeaker subwoofer package for $3k!
The powered loudspeaker market is heating up with the new Elac model, the Dynaudio xeo, and the Dali Kalisto
Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ Kef, Elac, Dali dealers
I think I'm going to actually go much cheaper than the 2k I put in this thread. In looking at speakers <2k range it seemed like I needed to spend a little more to get something that I wouldn't regret later. Something like the Trenner and Friedl or Fritz. And then I would have to upgrade my electronics purchase to be well matched with my more expensive speakers and then my overall budget would be blown up. And then I wouldn't enjoy my purchases because I'd be hyper critical having spent so much - at least that's what happened when I ventured into top of the line IEMs and DAPs.
So it looks I'll try the Silverline Minuet Supreme Plus. They look like the most balanced very small speaker under 1k. Then I'm thinking of pairing it with Spark Audio Vista and the very capable (with IEMs at least) LH Geekout V2A DAC. On paper at least that should get me capable sound at around 1k which I won't agonize over (until/unless upgrade-itis strikes).
Obviously the Supreme Plus' will have their bass limitations, but its a lot easier to swallow those compromises at 700 than 1700.
Any reason to expect that the Supreme Plus' and Vista won't be a good pairing?
I'd jump all over the Buchardt S400 in a heartbeat.
Have you heard them? It seems like they're popular with younger reviewers which suggests to me they do bass really well. Have heard much about the rest of the FR though.
Why are you limiting yourself to a bookshelf speaker? A decent floorstander won’t take up any more space than a bookshelf on a stand...you should listen to Paradigm’s Premier 700F=$1600/pr, or if you have to have a bookshelf, listen to the Premier 200B = $998/pr.
Or with a very small footprint, get the cousin, the Silverline Prelude Plus. Within your budget and pretty sure you can find a gently used pair or a discount for even less.
So I didn't hear much if any mention on Usher, Spendor, Vienna,or Totem. Some very good stuff there. But so much depends on the electronics you have with them. Currently auditioning a set of Boxers (Nola) myself. Such a difference from the KEF 350s which have their strengths and weaknesses. About to switch power sources though which will change the game yet some more. Might be best to audition a set up unless you love the adventure of upgrading and researching and testing. Then by all means buy one thing at a time. But enjoy the process don't let it become a drag or whats the point. I love the auditioning part so maybe in 10 years I will have what I want, but not likely. (insert smiley face here)
Given the range of costs of the speakers you mention and especially your preferences:
"
Balanced and revealing with a hint of warmth. Midrange most important to get right over highs and lows Timbre is super important - I listen mostly to acoustic music especially jazz But I do need some bass as I also listen to some electronic music Smaller is better but SQ is most important"
Seriously take a look at the Omega Super Alnico Monitor. Midrange is just beautiful; timbre is outstanding - acoustic music (including jazz) is wonderfully rendered; not the deepest bass but more than enough (enough to enjoy a Mahler symphony or the National). Slightly bigger than your other choices, but in the ballpark of the choices you listed. I selected these over Harbeth 30.1s after some lengthy, in home, auditioning. Includes a 30-day money back guarantee, thoughts of which completely vanished once the speakers adequately broken in. These replaced my Spendor BC-1s and Spendor s5e.
@ihor I looked at the Omegas - I love the idea of simplicity and midrange purity. But I heard the single driver struggles with more complex music - is that true?
Just a general observation - why are speaker demos usually done with really simple music? Like this, for example:
I think folks who have not heard well designed single driver speakers say that. Not sure what you consider complex music. I listen to a wide variety of music, including jazz (small groups, not Big Band), Americana, alt and classic rock, the full range of classical (solo piano to string quartets to concertos and symphonies) and very few times felt that the Omegas were struggling.(sounding a bit congested). That was when I really cranked up the volume LOUD. The Omega's produce quite a startle on Starvinsky's Rite of Spring! If you are willing to give their 30 day return policy a try, and let them break in fully, you will be very pleasantly surprised and completely satisfied - their midrange and timbre are hard to beat, especially at their price! I think the youtube demo is trying to show how fantastic they sound with small combo's and the human voice, and not because they can't handle more complex music.
BTW. I only have experience with the Omega Super Alnico Monitor, so my comments only apply to that speaker. My Omega's are along the narrow wall of a 17x25x9 ft room which is open on the side and opposite wall.
Taaw your arguement is totally flawed you don't think that a Chinese made product from a company that has built their own factory, has designed ever part together and has the financial resources to spend hundres of thousands to millions of dollars can't make a better speaker than a guy in a garage using off the shelf parts?
It has nothing to do with margins, those companies can afford to build a product a much lower cost because they can produce in huge volumes which drives costs down which enables them to have money for marketing, service and support.
Listen to the Quad S or Z series monitors they will totally shock you for the level of sound quality for the dollar and Quad builds everything in house that includes the drivers, crossovers, cabinets even the binding posts are made by Quad.
You may have heard some big companies products that you didn't like but the reality is still the same, you just may not have heard a product from another big company that might have blown you away.
Go listen to the Quads they are incredible so incredible that they have been winning speaker of the year in Europe for the last few years and the new Kef R series are also rather good.
Has anyone here heard the Xavian Perla Exclusive? They've gotten several stellar reviews and look amazing. Price is around 2k shipped to the US, but no US dealers so a bit risky.
recently purchased a demo pair of Monitor Audio Gold 100 for less than $2k. They are outstanding speakers in my opinion. I listen to a lot of acoustic music especially jazz. Not certain how they would sound in book case because they are rear ported. I listen to mine on Monitor Audio stands made for these speakers.
My Omega Super Alnico Monitor’s have very "honest" sound on classical music but a set amp doesn’t cut it on symphonic music .A 25 watt EL 34 amp does .
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
