Best bookshelf speakers
I ended up getting the Vanatoo One Encores at the presale price. They are outstanding, and not just for the money. You can find impressions of them on @taww's blog. I'm relieved to not have to agonize about a trillion different possible upgrade paths and just enjoy the music. I've had the Encore Zeros on my desk and they are also excellent, but these are a different level. |
How many votes for the Kef ls-50? I think the r300 is a bookshelf with an additional woofer. resale is going to bit regardless what you buy IF you buy new, under $500 I would buy something from Elac, The kef is probably still best in class but I think many actually expect it to be more than what it is because of all the hype. The market is pretty bad and dealers are dealing so make a friend and start bringing stuff home. |
Yes Rogers LS3/5a's. Wow! Auditioned them in 1976. I know, ancient times.....Rich, full, luscious and detailed sound. Downright seductive...........Would have purchased but wanted floor standing type. Should have bought a pair. Repro's are made imported from England. Seem to one true to the original in terms of parts, specs. |
Hello folks, I was an EE in my previous life. Built amps and my own speakers a few times. Less hassle to purchase one as I got older. Needed small form factor speakers in our kitchen / eating / family area and I got Ascent Acoustics Sierra-2 (RAAL). Just simply great. Does not go low enough and I don’t want to use a sub. The Ascends are wonderful just don’t go low enough - that is all. PS - I simply want to hear what is recorded, good or bad. Mostly good. Met with Jim Salk and Dennis Murphy and listened too the BMR and also the Philharmonic-3 at Dennis’s home. Wow !! to both is all I can say. I will be receiving my BMRs from Dennis Murphy with custom Salk cabinets soon. They go quite low. My cousin who came with me, ordered a pair of the Philharmonic-3s (replacing Legacy Audio Whispers). Digital source is an Oppo 203 with a routine Sony amp. Analog source is a Technics SL1210 (vintage) with Ortofon Red and a Musical Fidelity A308 as a phono preamp. |
Anti-climactic conclusion (for now). I’ve spent way too much time researching gear. I was already struggling with setting a budget and feeling like if I just upped my budget a little I’d get to a higher level of sound quality that I could be content with. But then I would back down feeling guilty that I would be spending too much. I could imagine this iterating the rest of my life until eventually I had tens of thousands of dollars in my gear through a never ending cycle of this is amazing! elation/there’s x imperfection in my system, how can I upgrade? discontent. I don’t want to go down that wormhole. So I’ve ordered the new Vanatoo Transparent One Encores. I’ll probably add the RSL Speedwoofer 10s to fill out the sound. I’ve got the Transparent Zeros on my desk and they sound really good and balanced, especially for the money. So good that I also bought a pair for my mom. Here’s a review: http://noaudiophile.com/Vanatoo_Transparent_Zero/. So I thought I’d get the big brother to them and enjoy the music without thinking too much about gear and my wallet. Sorry to all those spending time advising me. Hopefully someone else will benefit. |
stuff_jones A few thoughts....about everything that has been said so far 1. you should consider all of the speakers that have been suggested as "candidates" for you to audition at home...just because it sounds good in someone else's home with their equipment does not assure you that you will love it in your home. 2. If you have to spend a few shipping dollars to audition at home, in the end it will be worth it 3. Most likely, you will get the upgrade bug down the road...so don't buy a speaker that will be hard to resell unless you try something and it is just so good you have to have it and don't care about resale. 4. If you know what you want, there is nothing wrong with the resale market...buying preowned will save you 30% or so after shipment 5. The internet direct situation is much like craft beers....20 years ago, the craft beer guys forced the big brands to offer better tasting products. The ID guys like Fritz, Zu, Tekton, Philharmonic, Salk...to name a few have done the same to the big guys like KEF, Quad, etc. Just because speakers measure well doesn't mean they will sound great in your room...and just because the ID guys don't have the best measuring equipment doesn't mean that they can't make great sounding speakers. So far, the ear is the best tool....and each speaker company voices their speaker to their way of hearing/thinking what music sounds like. 6. If you have a big room...and bass matters, don't dismiss the idea that you could get better overall sound spending $1500 on speakers and $500 on a decent sub from one of the ID companies. Let us know what all you try and what you ended up with. |
@stuff_jones You heard what I did with the Hawks. The tweeter is a touch bright. However, what I did like is that at low and moderate volume you still get a lot of detail. Tubes helped a bit, but I'd still have to turn the volume down a bit on certain material. Overall, great speakers though and a ton of great sound for their footprint and price (when used). |
I know what you mean. My Spica TC-50 was an amazing loudspeaker from a small company and it's still one of my favorites from over the years. Too bad Mom came over one year to visit and destroyed them by fiddling around with my equipment trying to put on Christmas music at full blast one holiday years ago : ( |
I finally listened to some speakers, none of which were bookshelf speakers. I heard the Tekton Hawks (used) and the Monitor Silver 200 and 300s with some new Adcom class G integrated and the Parasound Halo. The Adcom sounded thin with the Hawks and so I ended up doing most of my listening with the Halo. The Hawks sounded dynamic with great transients and lots of details. The bass went low and was tight. They imaged really well. My issue was with the tweater. On some tracks it drew attention to itself with its sharpness. I think it would benefit from tubes, but they’re said to be power hungry so maybe a hybrid? Anyway, I could imagine having a love/hate relationship unless you got the amplification exactly right. That revelator woofer though was really impressive. I’d be interested in learning which other reasonably priced speakers use Revelator woofers. I know the Fritz Carerra BE do. Any others around 2k? Next I heard the Monitor Audio Silver 300s. They brought welcome warmth and body, but I found them a little overly warm/murky and maybe a little slow? A very pleasant listen though. I actually liked the Silver 200s more, outside the fact that they didn’t go as low. They took that nice easy going warmth of the 300s but seemed a little bit clearer and quicker to me. Not sure the break in status of either MA and the Hawks were used so fully broken in. They were the speaker of the three I could see living with the easiest even if they weren’t the most impressive. I do like the idea of a small profile floor stander now. I wonder though if the slim towers lose a little bit in dynamics compared event to a stand mounted speaker because of their smaller drivers. Incidentally I heard some 100k plus system and it was super impressive like great special effects in a movie. It wasn’t really convincing musically. Great dynamics, range and clarity, but something was off tonally and it just sounded too hyped up. It was like some photoshop special effect that makes you think wow but that doesn’t look real. |
Anyone have any experience with the PraAc Reference SM100s? They’re a bit over budget but used they could be a fit. Small and front ported so should be flexible with placement. Bass reported to the mid 30s but should be flat-ish given their reference use. Apparently very easy to listen to as reference monitors which bodes well for their hifi application. |
I had Hawks for a few years and loved them. If you're going to have bookshelf speakers on stands then Hawks are a great alternative. They are small, but have a huge soundstage and image fantastically. They also play down into the mid 30's and have great detail. Everyone who heard them thought I had a subwoofer, but I don't (I know - audiophile cliche, but true with the Hawks). Not sure how anyone would blow out the driver unless they really cranked the volume and fed it too much power, but almost any speaker can have that happen. My only issue with the Hawks is that the tweeter is a metal dome which I don't love. With certain music and at moderately high volumes the highs would sometimes sound a bit edgy or too sharp. The RAAL tweeter in my Song3's has more detail, more air, more texture, and none of the edginess. That's why I also recommend the BMR's which use the same RAAL as the Song3's. Again, with most music the tweeter, which I believe is also ScanSpeak, was fine, but sometimes I would have to touch the volume down. The Hawks are great though, and if you get them used at a good price you can probably sell them down the road for about what you paid for them. |
A good warranty should be a factor in any purchase you make, including speakers. That said, speakers are generally very reliable pieces of equipment. For me personally, as I tend to buy used, I would not consider the lack of a warranty to be a deal breaker. This of course is dependent on age, condition, type of equipment, and from where and whom you are purchasing.....I would tend to be less concerned about a lack of warranty if looking to purchase speakers as opposed to other components. There's a pair of used Totem Hawks near me which are tempting. However the comments of this 2011 review of the Hawks show several users with damaged drivers needing replacement. I want to say its because the long throw Revelator but then one person blew out their tweeters. Is this a model specific thing? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTVS0GCwNxg |
Stuff_Jones: The one Silverline speaker I heard (last year) was the Minuet Grand, as that's the one I specifically requested. Fritz was kind enough to bring over several models of his speakers: Rev 5, Rev 7, Carbon 7 (not the SE, if I remember correctly), Carerra 7(extremely nice speakers, those), and a pair of one-off floorstanders (an experiment, according to Fritz) with a ribbon tweeters that I got to audition in my system for a week. This was a couple of years ago, so I only have the most general recollection of what I heard. |
A good warranty should be a factor in any purchase you make, including speakers. That said, speakers are generally very reliable pieces of equipment. For me personally, as I tend to buy used, I would not consider the lack of a warranty to be a deal breaker. This of course is dependent on age, condition, type of equipment, and from where and whom you are purchasing.....I would tend to be less concerned about a lack of warranty if looking to purchase speakers as opposed to other components. |
@cooper52- I have owned many pairs of proacs including the 1sc’s and I have to say your description of the 610’s is spot on. They are really great speakers. I have since gone back to Proacs (studio 3’s) but have been thinking about getting a pair of the s610’s. Ryans are such an easy and fun speaker to listen to. |
Weighing in here based on my own experience: Of the speakers under discussion, I’ve heard/owned a pair of Proac Response 1SCs which were mentioned some posts ago (these spent about 10 years in my system before a change of amplification dictated something larger). I replaced them with Proac Response D2s, which seemed a bit bright and I didn’t like the way their treble and mids balanced. I’ve auditioned Silverline Minuet Grands, as well as several models of Fritz Speakers. Fortunately, both of these companies are based very close to where I live so they were willing to bring the speakers to my house to let me audition them in my own system. My impressions of the Fritz and Silverline speakers were generally favorable, but they didn’t quite fit my own taste. The Proacs came closer, in the sense that they offered a very detailed and sharply defined sound as well as excellent stereo imaging. Proac has what I consider a proprietary "house" sound which I can’t describe in words but know it when I hear it. It’s a sound that appeals to me, but maybe not everybody. Fritz (who is a very nice guy, BTW, and extremely knowledgeable about his craft) emphasizes balance and smoothness, but for me, at the expense of "edge," that is, they tend to smooth out the sharply defined outlines of the instruments. They’re excellent speakers in all respects, just not exactly to my taste. The Silverlines seemed to be all about "oomph," so if you like room-filling timpani or bass drums or, say, the cannons in Tchaikovsky’s "1812 Overture," these are for you. What I haven’t seen mentioned here are the speakers I finally settled on, which I think are in your price range: Ryan R610s. These are available from some retailers, so their company is not exactly a "cottage industry." I found mine here on A’gon slightly used, but that just means I didn’t have to spend however-many-100s of hours breaking them in. These are magnificently balanced and smooth like the Fritz’s, have all the bass you’d probably ever need in a small(ish) room, image extremely well, and illuminate the music without coloring it. The edges aren’t quite as sharp as the Proacs, but the overall sound is far more pleasing to my ear. If you can audition these, I highly recommend doing so. http://ryanspeakers.com/Products/Products/R610.html Best of luck in your search--there are so many good options out there! |
@abd1 Have you heard the BMRs? Are the mids at all recessed? How are the dynamics and transients? How is timbre? As I posted in my OP, mids are most important for me so the slight concerns about the mids I read somewhere put me off. I do love the idea of great dispersion. I can't imagine only listening to music sitting in one place. To me that would drastically cut the amount of time I could enjoy my system. |
@stuff_jones 1. I would say that unless you're really cranking the volume (over 95db) then I wouldn't worry too much about the sensitivity. You can often find great amps/integrateds on the used market that can easily handle these speakers. I just saw an ad come up for a pair of Odyssey monoblocks come up for about $800 for the pair. Those are killer amps that can drive anything and sound great. Check it out. Those will sell fast, but Odyssey's come up used fairly often. I wouldn't hesitate to use them with BMRs. For $400-$500 you can get a new NuForce STA-200 amp. It will also sound great with the BMRs. This amp uses a circuit from Goldmund of Switzerland (super hi-end stuff) and is almost exactly the same as the Job225 amp (built by Goldmund). I have both amps and I can't really tell a difference. They easily power anything I've hooked up to them. Those are just a couple quick options, but finding a great amp for the BMRs isn't tough. You could also use an integrated like a Peachtree 150 or 300. Those would sound amazing with the BMRs. 2. The BMR driver looks odd, but it works great as a midrange. It has great dispersion, and the midbass is covered by the 7" driver, which extends down to the mid-30hz region. But it does look odd. I just read where someone is comparing the BMRs with the Ascend Sierra RAAL tower and he said he can hardly hear a difference (and that's comparing to the tower). Check it out here. Last thing I'd add is that someone posted checking out a used pair of Totem Hawks as small towers and I also owned those and would agree that if you want a small tower and can find a used pair ($1000-1500) you're getting a fantastic speaker. Those love power too, so the amp recommendations are the same, but those are great little speakers that sound huge. I prefer the RAAL tweeter to the tweeter in the Hawks, but other than that the Hawks are great and have a great small form factor. |
@abd1 The BMRs are very high on my list, but have slid a bit for two reasons. 1. The low sensitivity and need for a more powerful amp means that some of the cost savings are offset by having to buy a more powerful amp. And high wattage amps cost more money to get the same sound quality as lower powered amps, right? 2. The midrange. There are reports its a little recessed and not dynamic which makes sense given that small flat BMR for the midrange. What are your thoughts on the mids? |
I believe the Revel M126Be, which is $4,000, has slightly better than the 10 x 1 driver ratio cost you listed. SB gives amazing discounts to volume purchasers. Look at the prices for the Tekton series with 20 or so $30 tweeters. So, I'm pretty sure they revels are still around 10:1. Just try to run through the math. Standard dealer markup is 45% ... |
@
erik_squires
I believe the Revel M126Be, which is $4,000, has slightly better than the 10 x 1 driver ratio cost you listed. The tweeters are SB acoustics Be tweeters, which from what I can see around $770/pair. And the woofer is a 6" SB acoustics ceramic which looks like go for $173/pair. So right there you have a 4 to 1 ratio. Now obviously they get better pricing than through OEMs like Madisound, but I suspect it isn't more than 25% cheaper. |
I like KEF's (listening to Q150's on my desktop right now), but I think the BMR might be the best deal speaker deal in HiFi. Its like a mini-tower and you won't need a sub. You just need the right space for them as they are large. You will need a good amp, but since these are well below budget you can have extra funds available. I'd check out Van Alstine, Odyssey, Job225, Wyred4Sound, or even a Peachtree 150 or 300 and I'd look used too as you can almost always find great deals. Also for good stands check out the Monoprice Monolith stands for about $100. The 24" would be perfect for the BMR. Good luck. |
It seems you are gravitating to the smaller companies and there is definitely merit to that. I used to own KEF reference from the 90's for many years, but since then had moved on and was not particularly a fan of their more recent affordable lines. I have to say though, the new R line is a completely different animal to the the old ones. I think you'd be doing yourself a disservice NOT comparing whatever your finalists are to the new R3. It is that good. |
I think it was Steve Gutenberg who recommended a 50:33:17 speaker:amp:dac cost ratio. What if you do something more like 70:20:10? Will you get better SQ out of a more balanced "Gutenberg distribution", given a fixed budget?I think it's more to illustrate a principle - DACs generally have faster diminishing returns than amps and speakers - rather than to be taken literally. For example say one had a total budget of $10k and was buying new, you could make a great system with say a Metrum Jade / Chord Qutest, Primaluna Dialogue 2 (I think you might like tubes, btw) and Living Voice Auditorium speakers. One can also find a lot of integrated amps nowadays with built-in DACs, and don't at all discount buying used for big savings. This is so damned unpopular with audiophiles but I'd argue that if you spent 10/20/30% of that budget on room acoustic treatments (bass traps, panels, diffusers), you'd get even better sound than any gear upgrade... |
I think you should throw as much money at the speaker you feasibly can to prevent the immediate upgrade bug. Selling speakers are a pain and I consider speakers furniture/art. Depending on your room it is one of the 1st items people see. My main music room is off the foyer in what is traditionally a formal living room. There have been many speakers I would consider, but am concerned about their looks. I use the virtual system portion of Audiogon to find speakers that I find appealing in a room with similar style. It is one of the reasons I am looking at the Devore o/96. I think they are very nice looking speaker. |
Trying to glean more wisdom from the audiogon vets: What are your thoughts on using a disproportionate portion of a system budget on "endgame" speakers and skimping a little on electronics? You can slowly upgrade your electronics to get more out of your speakers if you’re not satisfied/curious. I think it was Steve Gutenberg who recommended a 50:33:17 speaker:amp:dac cost ratio. What if you do something more like 70:20:10? Will you get better SQ out of a more balanced "Gutenberg distribution", given a fixed budget? |
A small floorstander might do the trick too, but so far none have piqued my interest. Any suggestions?-- Living Voice Auditorium sounds to me like your perfect speaker, but they’re way above your budget new http://www.borderpatrol.net/livingvoiceloudspeakers.htm Another variable is synergy with a given amp and interaction with your room, hence the need to go visit some dealers and just get some initial pointers on viable systems. Brands/Models I’d recommend to try to hear are the Nola Boxer, various Totems, Harbeth P3-ESR and the ATC SCM11s. All have their attendant compromises, but broadly fit your stated sonic preferences. Two current listings that catch my eye both happen to be Italian! https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis99e4g-opera-mezza-bookshelf-speakers-cherry-pair-13119-monitors... https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lis99848-diapason-audio-neos-full-range |
Not sure what your listening space is, but mine has always allowed a 7ft equilateral triangle and sometimes 9ft in my living room.... Latest arrival in my 7ft triangle is an old pair of totem hawks, and this is the best compromise i have ever had, between small size, deep bass, easy placement, relatively easy to drive, dynamics, sweet spot, and fantastic stage and imaging. They have been around for about 20 years and they are not cheap. But i think that they do what an audiophile wants in a small package. Maybe the totem sky measure up and more at a lower price point. There's always the used market. |
@motokokusanagi1 I’m building a system from scratch. Of course in a perfect world you’d be able to go to the few dealers near you and try all the speakers on your radar, including the direct sale models, with all the amps on your radar and all the DACs. That’s obviously not possible. Instead you have a very limited selection of gear in your vicinity that is not representative of the best gear at your price point in the world. The problem and beauty of this hobby, I'm learning, is that there's so much good gear coming from so many different tiny manufacturers. If you're buying a laptop or a car, you more or less know the universe of manufacturers and can pick from among their models. I'm over a month into my research on this and am still discovering gear that I think I should be looking into. A small floorstander might do the trick too, but so far none have piqued my interest. Any suggestions? |
I am watching this thread with great interest, because I have a very similar question to pose. My beloved NS1000m Yamahas are overpowering my 'cave in the loft' (albeit fully soundproofed) - proven by the fact I plugged in some Beovox s45's and the acoustic measurements are vastly superior. I was very curious about the writer who dismissed the 3a DeCapo because I have heard them and astonished with how natural they sounded. Anyway my list have thus far comprised: Kef R3 Reference 3a Dulcet Be Acoustic Energy Reference ProAc Tablette Signature I really want a high end sound from a 5-6 inch driver speaker. |
"Tiny companies" that buy drivers from OEM driver manufactures such as Seas and Scanspeak, which are held by larger companies, seam to do just fine in R&D. Not sure if you call Devore 'tiny' but they buy some of their drivers from Seas and their speakers seem to be highly thought of. Zu uses /Eminence drivers and they are a major player in making drivers and seem to be well thought of by musicians who use their drivers in guitar amps and other A/V implementations. Just like other industries, many speaker companies are subsidiaries of other A/V companies with most manufacturing in China. Heck, B&W was bought by a automation company (EVA Automation), former 49er owner I believe. Not sure what their plan is, but they have no experience in speaker manufacturing. I presume they want to use the B&W name and integrate something with streaming and home automation. Is their R&D going to driver development, or something mainstream that brings in revenue along with some automation plan. I think implementation and integration of the speaker is more critical than a 'in-house' driver technology. My issue with small companies is resale and a legacy plan if by chance the owner becomes ill, or retires. I am aware Madisound has driver matching, but I am still concerned the replacement driver may not have the exact same measurements of the original. I agree with moto, let your ears be the deciding factor based on your buying criteria. |
This thread is fun, but also nuts. The best advice I can give is go look up local dealers, check out what brands they carry, then make a shortlist and have as many auditions as possible, ideally with your own gear. Speakers are completely subjective things and one person’s audio nirvana will sound utterly crud to the next person. Remember also that the actual space footprint of a mini bookshelf on stands may be no smaller whatsoever to a slim floorstander. |
Seadiamonds really? Most internet direct companies are tiny companies that buy drivers from other larger driver OEM companies. Companies like KEF, B&W, Quad, and many other large companies design and engineer drivers that use proprietary technologies that these tiny companies could never afford to impliment, so you are correct you are paying for advertising, your are also dealing with companies that have ecconomies of scale that tiny companies can't afford. So there are too sides to this arguement. Dave and Troy Audio Doctor NJ |
The internet direct companies use higher quality drivers than retail brands, which means their speakers will typically have better axial response, dynamics, and distortion measurements (especially spectral decay). Also sometimes the cabinets have better bracing and thicker baffles. This is usually a matter of economies, ID companies simply don't have as much corporate overhead as a retail brand and can spend more $ on parts. I would say the main downside for internet direct vs retail (other than looks, i.e. cabinet build quality and finishes) is dispersion. Because these are off the shelf drivers, they don’t have custom baffles or waveguides for proper directivity control, and may have some pretty ugly polar response measurements. That said plenty of retail brands simply use off the shelf drivers as well, so we’re talking about a few good retail brands. |
These are luxury products and I think most of us are expecting a luxury buying experience. Ordering something on the internet with a generous return policy is NOT a luxury buying experience. Buying my Focals was, without a doubt, a luxury buying experience.One risk with the big boys is that they will decimate your investment as soon as they liquidate. Upscale Audio for example has the Stella Utopia marked down to 50k from the original 119k....and many more Focal's on clearance. You will never see Harbeth, Devore, or other boutique shops with a 50% off blowout sale. Boutique shops by their very definition do not do fleet sales to Underwood Hifi or Upscale Audio. Having said that, if you can get something you like on clearance, go for it! Those are both good dealers with great specials. |
| Post removed |
