I have the same issue without a solution except hanging the speakers for the celling to invert the problem.
I'm hoping someone somewhere has solved this.
Bass only when I stand up…
Weird experience.
Wired up my system and sit down in my office chair. The bass disappeared. Stand up, and alakazam, the bass is back full and wonderful. It’s like swimming in the sea, there are horizontal layers of different temperatures. Quite distinct.
Ok, system info:
Speakers - PMC MB2SE
Power amp - Marantz 8807
Preamp - Marantz 8005
Sources - Pioneer LX800 or N70ae
Room - carpeted, 4.27x5.5x2.75m, acoustic insulated plasterboard and timber frame
Shape? Left side where door is, has duct risers that create 800mm boxes either side of the door. I’ve tried attaching a photo but didn’t work. Try here: link
Speakers placed 600mm out from the 4.27 wall, with the opposite wall being a library and office desk.
Tried? Raising front and rear speaker stands 1” to point speakers up or down slightly with no effect.
I welcome ideas 💡 yet realize there are constraints here too.
28 responses Add your response
Standing waves and null zones. Only way to really solve is experiment with placement (speakers and listening position), and then augment with bass traps. Analyzing using REW or the like will help in a more efficient journey towards a solution, as I wouldn't look forward to lugging those phenomenal speakers you have across the four corners of the room. |
Speaker position is everything. I have had this experience too. The factors affecting the bass are distance from front wall, side walls and most importantly, distance between each speaker. First, experiment by moving the speakers closer together in 3 inch steps. When you hear a change go back and move them in finer increments. Do the same procedure from the front wall. As a rough generalization, very rough- the speakers want to be between 1.83-2.74 meters apart. Sure, bigger speakers with big drivers can be further apart but in general 2.44 meters, plus/minus will be the sweet spot. 1 meter from the front wall minimum will help the bass and the soundstage. Lastly, listening position is critical too. Start with listening position equal to the distance between tweeters. Then try moving back to 1.1-1.2 times the distance between tweeters. Try to keep some distance from the back wall while moving those speakers away from the front wall as far as possible. Bass traps in the corners will remove mudiness in the bass notes but they are not a cure for no bass. Ie. Bass traps don’t make more bass, they make the bass you have better. |
Those are some serious speakers, producing a lot of bass. The manual has advice regarding placement https://www.pmc-speakers.com/sites/default/files/attachments/web-Se%20Series-manual-July2022_0.pdf I would: 1. make the 128 lb monsters movable a. remove the spikes b. I would prefer 3 wheels, two front, 1 rear center. dual wheel furniture casters have tight axels that do not wobble. 3 is more weight/wheel than 4; and 3 always settle without wobble wherever you put them. c. OR add soft or hard ’skid’ plates to the bottom of the frame where the spikes used to be. felt pads on a hard floor, smooth plastic on carpet. move with force, stay put. Now you have the ability to move them various distances from rear and side walls, until things improve. In current and any future space. Doubt about movement/stability? See my system, my speakers on 3 wheels with Donna’s precious things on top of the angled enclosures. They move, they don’t move, nothing vibrates off the top. It’s about the correct ’tight’ wheels/amount of felt/amount of plastic (minimum material relative to speaker weight to allow movement) 9th photo shows bottom of speaker: (click FULL SCREEN top right, to see entire image/bottom of speaker/captions) https://www.audiogon.com/systems/9511 flat 2x4 block on top of front wheels creates vertical angle when upright; 3 wheels (came on JSE Infinite Slope Model 2s. I tried ’superior’ wheels, all had wobbly axels, these dual wheel type are the best, no wobble when in position, with those 37lb 15" woofers doing their thing. Over 100lbs, they stay where I move them. 2. Alternate Toe-In a. 1 listener: angle so each speaker is aimed directly at the listening position b. 2 listeners, presumably a small chair in between, or ends of a sofa: leave inside front corner where it is, rotate so that left speaker is aimed directly at right listener, aim right speaker directly at left listener. Imaging is ’maintained’ to a decent degree because each listener gets more volume from the opposite side due to directivity, as well as somewhat equal volume from speaker his side due to closer distance. It works, fiddle with it. 3. Angle the Speakers Vertically so that they project the sound UP slightly. Ideally tweeter aimed directly at seated ear height. The combination of angled toe-in and angled vertically alters the direction and reflection of sound waves to and from floor/ceiling/side/rear walls. In your case, anti-tipping solution(s) need to be solved. 4. Now, measuring tools to help find best location: a. Sound Pressure Meter On a tripod, at listening position, seated ear height b. Test Tones to Measure (CD, not LP) I use tracks 9-38 of this CD https://www.discogs.com/release/7290000-Various-Amazing-Bytes Single 1/3 octave tones, select;play/pause/....... not pink noise, single tones: make a chart, record what you are getting at your initial placement. Make copies, see what changes when moved .....? Take your time, take a break, back at it tomorrow .... Takes careful work, but you will save yourself the trouble/money/ugliness of a lot od room treatment. Perhaps some needed, but less for sure. Live anywhere near me, Plainfield, NJ. It would be fun to help and hear those puppies! |
@elliottbnewcombjr is on the right track but I would do it by putting the speakers on dollies to move around and when you find a better location (if there is one) put them back down on the spikes. As you discovered rooms can develop nodal behavior both horizontally and vertically. This is a function of your room, not your speakers. Absorbing bass is very difficult. Most room treatments that "absorb bass" do not work and moving a wall, ceiling or floor is not in the cards. I usually tell people to move their listening position to a place where they like the balance but you have a vertical problem. Still, moving your listening position you might find a better balance. Moving it up would be a sure cure but aesthetically challenged. Next is digital "room control" which is really speaker control. It EQs your system to be more balance anywhere you place the measurement microphone. In your case it would boost the bass at the frequencies that are down. The problem with this is that it requires a lot of power and can stress many loudspeakers increasing distortion. The best option is subwoofers. These take the load off the main system and if you use multiple subwoofers you might be able to control, even extinguish the nodes in your room. The best processors combine digital bass management with room control and digital EQ. These made by Trinnov, DEQX, Anthem, Legacy and MiniDSP. I personally prefer the new DEQX design which also includes a 4 way digital crossover. They also make the same unit without the crossover for less adventurous audiophiles. Next and last is to set your system up in a different room. I have background music throughout the house but I do all my serious listening in a room designed for it. The room you are in now might only be useful for back ground music. Good luck, this can be a very frustrating problem and be careful. The industry is more than willing to sell you a bunch of junk that does not work. |
mijostyn plant caddies can work for your method of finding placement a front block to angle them vertically is needed to alter the angles of directivity and reflections off all surfaces a single/stack of long paint mixers can find the right height, then something nicer looking, secured. https://www.homedepot.com/p/21-in-Wood-Paint-Stick-for-5-Gallon-3-Pack-PS5G-3/206871624 I would not use the spikes, I’ve used them, no advantage heard, they are limiting, prevents easy alternate toe-in when a friend visits, I gave them to my friend, he used them, then not. His imaging wonderful when in center, gone when sitting off center without altering toe-in. Magnificent system, superior imaging, years of acquisitions/expenditures, just strong left when left of center, ... SUCKS. Mine, original toe in, sitting off center: ok/better than many due to horns with wide horizontal dispersion, narrow vertical dispersion, BUT not great, so much better when aimed at each listening position. I guess if you don’t have friends over often and you believe in spikes .... After you find a location and vertical angle, compare with/without spikes. IF you don’t hear a difference, forget what ’should be better’. Ability to move/alter toe-in/maintain wide imaging when desired is far more important |
Absolutely agree, except in the case if the OP has to work in the "constraints" of his room placement and winds up with the only place for his listening position that doesn’t have a "null" has a slight "peak". I shouldn’t have phrased the traps in tandem with speaker placement. Appreciate the clarification!
My wife’s a total green thumb; but this idea never popped into my mind; great suggestion! My narrow-minded thinking could only picture "walking" the beasties around the room in a sea of sweat. 😆 |
Did a quick analysis here:
https://amcoustics.com/tools/amroc?l=550&w=427&h=275&r60=0.6
Your speakers and listening location are not ideal due to the modes that will express most strongly at the ends of the room between 30 and 70 Hz. The location of your library/desk area also limit bass traps to the ceiling and far wall, so whatever you use it has to be super effective per square foot. If possible, move the speakers further out into the room. At least twice as far. Start with floor to ceiling GIK soffit traps in the area behind the speakers. This should help a great deal. If that’s not enough add soffit traps across the top and bottom of the far wall. You can also consider using monster traps there as well. I don’t think you’ll need the range limiter unless you also feel your system starts to sound thin after the soffit traps. If that’s STILL not enough you’ll need to put soffit traps from the top of the traps behind the speakers to the edge of your bookshelves. https://www.gikacoustics.com/product/gik-acoustics-monster-bass-trap-flexrange-technology/ |
The quickest way, not the only way. Some of the suggestions will help. First pull your speakers out from the wall. At least 500mm, next add subwoofers. If it's not in the budget pick up 2 used woofers for the time being. As you know bass is non directional, adding more fills the nodes in the room and helps equalize the bass in the entire room. It isn't about getting more bass, you are simply filling the nodes in the room. You may have to turn them very low to help from disrupting your main speakers, but it will work. Good luck, Tim
|
Where the heck did my last response update go? Well, good news. I took the advice here about moving the speakers closer together. I moved them about a foot each side towards the centre and about another 6” forward. Problem solved. Now there’s no difference standing or sitting. Both have the same excellent bass. Powerful, deep and clear. Wife approves! She’s a long term Hi-Fi buddy. I have them towed in towards the seating position and it’s a nice clear focus. I’ll bring another eames style chair in this room shortly. Or an exercise bike! First, thanks to those here who suggested this solution. It worked. I’m grateful. John |
Bass response is one of the craziest things in hifi. Over the years and living in different houses with varying room sizes and volumes I would stubbornly set up my stereo with the same separation distance between the speakers and distance from the front wall. I would notice that the bass would often sound better in the back of the room than in my listening chair. The real head scratcher was when I had great bass while standing and it would all disappear when I sat down. Finally, in desperation I moved my speakers closer together and Bam! I had bass again. The bass response relative to speaker position seems to be a function of bass driver size, room shape and volume. If the drivers are too far apart the nodes rise upward and outward. That is the part I did not visualize- the 3 dimensionality of the bass response until I hit on it. The good thing is, or what I found is that the bass remains the same when moving the speakers closer and closer together once at the sweet spot. So it is possible to attain the largest soundstage possible and have great bass by just finding that sweet spot for the bass. 1 inch or less movement of the speakers makes a difference. |
@johnread57, very glad you got this worked out! Enjoy! |
Those that suggest it's speaker position are correct. It's a common problem when the speakers and listening position are both 1/3 into the room. I suggest researching Dave Wilson's process of positioning speakers and listening positions. It will also help you brush up on your public speaking skills. |
consider a ’swarm’. i’ve been in a 12’ x 12’ x 8’ very small room with great bass. when you look at the room no way it should work, but it does. not cheap, cheap, but not crazy spendy either. cheaper than trying to build another room or find another house. and......drum roll please.....it actually works. http://www.audiokinesis.com/the-swarm-subwoofer-system-1.html |
I am _NOT_ suggesting the OP go this route, especially now that the issue has been solved, but the basic problem is one that lends itself well to satellites with subs. If you _must_ place the speakers in a sub-optimal location for the bass then maybe even just 1 sub while high passing the main speakers can work supremely better, assuming you have better luck with the sub locations. |
My first (serious) system that I had in our previous house exhibited a similar problem, only that it was in a living room adjoining the dining room. Long and narrow space with system agains the short wall. Not long to discover that when I stepped into the dining area while system was playing, insane bass would suddenly emerge. the dining area was separated by a ceiling archway opening that dropped into about 2ft of wall space on either side of the opening, which seemed -in a manner of speaking - to act as a bass trap. When I got fed up and just moved the system against the long wall of the living room, wallah! All the bass I needed (too much in fact). Some slight adjustments did dial things in over time. try mining it to a long wall to start? Just for reference. Another consideration is a corner placement, which has been known to help break up potential standing waves. Ultimately, some pretty expert advice from everyone before. This is frustrating, but a placement change should definitely fix this! Best of luck 🙏🏼👍🏼 |
| Post removed |
