Not sure if this was the appropriate sub-forum, I'm pretty new to all this stuff, and would appreciate any insight you can offer. I am building a new home (almost complete), and leaning towards adding a pair of B&W 800 series D4 to my office. The room is approximately 18'x17'x10'H. Not sure if this makes a difference, but my builder has sound proofed the right side wall where I plan to place the towers in front of (see picture link), as well as the ceiling. I'm not sure what he used to sound proof, but it's behind the dry wall & some wood paneling. In the pic, the "furniture" isn't to scale or anything, just a rough estimate. Link to room pic: https://imgur.com/a/MgpHATC
My questions:
For this room size, would the B&W 802 D4 be the correct choice in the 800 series lineup? Or should I go bigger (801 D4) or smaller (803 D4)?
Does it matter that my towers will be off center within the room itself?
Would it be a waste to spend this much on a sound system when I did not specifically design the room to be used as a hifi listening room?
What electronics would you recommend to pair with the B&W's? I was leaning towards all McIntosh.
My max budget is around $100,000 all in for this sound system. B&W 802 D4's + McIntosh would get me to around $50k, and I'd be content spending only that amount. That being said, I'm open to suggestions other than B&W and/or McIntosh electronics (i.e. if there are electronics that pair better with B&W). Thanks in advance!
I think the room is fine, but I find B&W and Mc bright independently and more so together. Mind you that doesn't mean you should not go that route but I want you to think about the combination and the room.
Try to listen on the mid-axis instead of the tweeters. Consider Ayre or Luxman counter points to listen to.
Can you treat the room? If so, strongly recommend the use of diffusors and absorbers, but wait until your gear is in. If you find it too bright or too boomy that will help you decide what you nee more of.
Above all, make yourself happy, not me. I'm just suggesting you consider the tonal character and your alternatives.
From a system building perspective, there is a lot that you can do. B&W and McIntosh are the best known of hi-fi brands and they both have their following and are wonderful brands. But they are polarising and have particular sound profiles that you may or may not like.
They are not necessarily the best products that you can get for your taste. I know if is a giant PITA with COVID resurging but if you are going to spend $100K, you need to get out and listen. This is the best way to ensure you are going to end up with an awesome sounding system?
Where do you live (just region)? We might be able to recommend dealers or others where you can hear some gear. It might be that your initial guess is spot on and that is exactly what you want. But I would think you would rather be certain.
I'm in VA.
I'm not dead set on B&W 802 D4's. I'm also considering the Kef Blade 2's or Focal Scala Utopia Evo's... and still researching others. Do you know of any good dealers in my area?
After giving it more thought, I think I am going to go with this room layout to keep the towers symmetrical in the room, see link: https://imgur.com/a/w96jG00
You have way more budget than you need. 801D4 matched to the very musical Musical Fidelity Nu-Vista 800 would be a great match. You wont get fancy blue meters but you will get great sound. Personally the MF New Vista is a giant statement that you know sound and not just not following the crowd.
If you're near DC, you could go to Deja Vu (audio store, not the other kind of establishment), Command Performance, and Evolution Audio. I recommend going in that order. Deja Vu is the farthest from the "main line" brands you're looking at, but you also stand an excellent chance of hearing something there that will entrance you.
What sound characteristics are most important to you? What kind of music do you listen to and how loud? You live in a good area to hear lots of good audio, and especially at your level of expense you should go out and hear at least a few other systems (bring your own music when you go in case the dealer doesn’t have it). I worked for Magnolia and heard the 802s with McIntosh and frankly thought it was not a good pairing relative to what else could be had for that kind of $$$, but then we all have different tastes I guess. Sharing your preferences will make it much easier to recommend good options to go hear in your area.
As for your room, there’s a huge difference between soundproofing a room to prevent sound from getting out and optimizing a room for better sound inside it. Download and read Earl Geddis “Premium Home Theater,“ which is a very approachable and educational source that’ll make you lightyears smarter about room design and better able to make construction decisions. You’ll be glad you read it.
I would listen to some more speakers than b and w speakers, they are a big brand name but you can get a lot better sound elsewhere and the same with mcintosh electronics. At one point in time mac was the best or one of the best but that is no longer the case at all.
I'm using 802D's (powered by a Magnus Audio MA400 amp) along with two Tekton 4-10 sub towers in a 14 X 15 room & it sounds wonderful. But... these speakers sound best a few feet away from the walls. I'm not able to do that with my left channel (only about 2.5' away from the side wall) & it is a bit of a compromise. That stated, the size of your room would fit them very well.
I always like the sound of my 801’s using Mark Levinson electronics. The 801’s really sounded amazing powered with ML 20.6 power amps. Also used a ML 380 pre-amp. So many choices.
if you have a budget of $100K I would seriously consider Audionet Humbolt amp, Mola Mola Tambaqui Dac, Von Schweikert Endeavor SE speakers, a streamer Auralic or Aurender. Innakustik 3500P conditioner Innakustik 2404 cables or Kubala Sosna Elation cables That should be $100K That would be a sweet set up
For that price: never B&W and McIntoch: As streamer,you can take Moon, , Lumin, Aurender , Auralic with a seperate dac: Metronome Technologie C6 or C8 , Ayre , Ear Yoshino… as pré-amp: Daniël Hertz M6L, ,Ayre, Audio Quest. As Poweramp: Zanden , VAC (is great), Soulution and as speakers : Ilumnia Magister MKII :the best speakers I ever heared ( Ilumnia.be : you can see them on their site) Enjoy your music !!!
If that's your budget why are you wasting time with BMW 800 4, the monitor audio platinum 500 Gen 2 is a way better speaker and you could get way better electronics that you're talking about, Sim audio, Macintosh, and many others and if you're going to use cables use OCC single Crystal that's the best wire for sound companies like harmonic technology, acoustic Zen are very reasonably priced the other companies are not.
You are going to get a 1000 different responses saying one speaker is better with this amp vs that amp. Welcome to AG. Wait til you get the dealers pushing their high margin brands...
Do your due diligence and ignore 90% of the these posters.
I rarely post but loved my older 802s with ML amps and No. 39 CD. Twenty years later and my ears much less refined, I find streaming through Roon/Qobuz with Purifi class D amps and monitor speakers a better experience.
With that said, these new D4 are very intriguing and may have to take a listen to them......good luck with your search. Listen...don't rely on a bunch of gasbags telling you what to buy.
I have 803 D3s in a room similar to yours. Getting the 802’s or 801‘s isn’t about whether or not the speakers can play loudly enough. Each speaker just sounds different. So choose the speaker not based on the size of your room but on the sound of the speaker. Your speakers are going to need to be about 4 feet away from the front wall and 3 feet from that side wall. For me that means I have to roll the speakers forward when I’m listening and push them back when I’m not. Looks like you’ll have to do the same thing. I would include a pair of rel subwoofers in your set up. Even though the diamond series plays great bass the subwoofers help increase the soundstage. I love my speakers and Pass Labs amp. But it would make sense for you to audition many otherSpeakers to make sure you get exactly the kind of sound that you like.
Regarding B&W, it has been commented upon that their tweeter sounds very bright. McIntosh tube products are considered by many to be very warm sounding. I have heard them together, and those characteristics balanced each other out very nicely.
A brand of speaker not yet mentioned is Sonus faber which are unanimously considered to be Italian goddesses in the looks department. They are fantastic sounding to me. Personally, looks are important in a speaker. These are generally comments. Have fun!
I have heard the 802D3 and 803D3 both on McIntosh amps (mc611). The 803D3 has no bass… for me me at least. It sounds thin. The 802D is better and with your budget I would be looking at the 800D, your room is fine. I have owned B&W in the passed and it really wore on my ears. I was happier when I moved on a long time ago. I really like McIntosh amps, though they are not popular on this site. I A/B a few amps and bought the MC462 which I am happy with. Once I had the Wilson Audio Sophia 3, 802D2 and Thiel 3.7 in the same room/ system for a back to back A/B with a few A/B of amps thrown in there too. Moved speakers around to their best spot for each one (awesome dealer!). That day the B&W held their own but it was easy to see they were colored once played back to back like that. B&W is very detailed but the frequency response is a rollercoaster. When you demo listen closely to the upper mids of the 800s and make sure you can live with it long term. The thing that stood out in this A/B was the dispersion pattern of each speaker and how it effected sound stage.
100k is a lot. My system is closer to 50k and is pretty monster. Also, what you're going to get in a forum like this is a lot of what each person thinks is the best for that. I could rattle off my system and tell you it's great but it might not be your taste. For any amount of money, but particularly that much, I'd take the time to go listen to a lot of speakers and electronics. Keep an open mind to brands you're unfamiliar with. Maybe take a look at stereophile's recommended components over the past few years as well.
I don't personally know anyone in DC/Virginia. I would hope someone here could share if they have a great dealer they work with.
I think you are very right conceptually looking at speakers first. Find the speakers you like and then choose the electronics that you want to go with them.
Here is a list of awesome brands worth taking a look at that sound different. You initial thoughts of B&W, Kef and Focal is good. They are big and safe and make awesome speakers.
For a range of sounds, at least take a look at the website of the following brands. Some of these look a bit different but all of these are speaker makers that make elite products.
Wilson Benesch - carbon fiber cabinets handmade in the UK. Incredibly detailed and fast. I would look at the Vector and the ACT One Evolution. These are a slightly forward but extremely detailed speaker that sounds massive. Because of the relative neutrality, it works with a VERY broad list of amplifiers. Everything from Chord and Ayre (a little brighter) to AVM and Naim (warmer) will work nicely. Unfortunately, I think I am your nearest dealer just outside of NYC
Vivid - the designer here is one of the guys who helped make B&W great back in the 90s. All are transmission line speakers made from fiberglass but sound incredible. These are brighter like B&W, Focal and Kef and needs warmer amplification. Bricasti, Naim, AVM, borg are all incredible with these. I would look at the Kaya 45 and Giya G3. Reach out to Todd through the Vivid website and he will get you the nearest dealer.
Wilson - they are made from their proprietary materials which are different types of phenolic resin which is the material good PCBs are made from. They are made in Utah and are brilliant. I am not an expert on their line. They are best with high current tube and SS gear. Bricasti, AVM and VTL are wonderful options.
Magico - Aluminum cabinets and wonderful parts make these speakers incredible. They LOVE power and come to life with lots of headroom. They are brighter and work best with warmer amplification. I loved them with AVM amplification at NY Audio Show in 2018
YG - similar to magico. Aluminum cabinets, etc... They like power but don't need the massive reserves that Magico likes.
Rockport - I would second looking at these and would not discourage anyone from considering them.
Avantgarde - these are German horns. Unusual looking and insanely revealing. Careful matching is required but these are exciting and engaging speakers. Look at the Uno and Duo. Not sure who the dealer is in your area.
MBL - These are omni-direction electrostats. Best with their amplification and the do generally need massive power reserves. These deliver an immersive listening experience like no other speaker in the world.
Raidho - These are ribbon based speakers that sound huge and deliver an incredible listening experience. Not as immersive as the MBLs, it is sort of a middle ground between something like Vivid and MBL. They have a lot of models that would work on your budget and work with a broad range of amplification. I know their is a guy in Philly who sells these.
Vienna Acoustics - These are a refined and well made speaker that is doing some really interesting stuff with drivers. Strongly recommend them. Reach out to Bluebird and they will put you in touch with the nearest dealer.
Vandersteen - these are warmer speakers (best with Ayre). Richard Vandersteen is certainly a legend in the US market and for good reason. These are great speakers.
If you review and research these, you will get a very good understanding of the range of options available to you. I personally carry Wilson Benesch, Vivid, Avantgarde and Raidho. The other products are just ones that you should consider if you are going to spend this kind of money.
Hey, firstly, any room can be optimized with room treatments. The best description I have heard is that low frequency behaves like water. It will build in the corner of your room depicted and it will wash out of the door opening. Not a big deal. I have GIK brand bass traps etc but there are many good alternatives. Try the room as it is first and then make adjustments. As for B&W, I have 802d2s with JL audio fathom 212s. Speakers really depend on the type of music and the volume level. Beware a lot of people say things who have never actually owned a pair. With a properly integrated sub you have many choices. The plus side of brands like B&W and Mac is that they are easily re-sellable down the road. The negatives are largely subjective. I don’t personally care for the aesthetics of Macs but they have a wide variety of products so you should be able to find one that’s right for you. It sounds however like you are new to this stuff and are basing decisions based on reputation- not a sin by any means. If that is your case I would consider buying clean second hand and sticking to well known brands. If your tastes change then you can resell (many resellers want clean name brand trade ins) and the hobby is the adventure it should be. Last thing, don’t believe all the reviews etc and constantly trade up. Buy decent quality and listen to music, that’s really why we are here right?
If you’re not set on B&W, I would strongly consider other brands. They definitely have a "house sound" that some like, but it measures and sounds bright to a lot of people, including me. I would consider, at your budget, some other speakers/brands. Here are my picks, in no particular order:
1) KEF Blade/Blade II (KEF Reference is also excellent) 2) Vivid Giya series 3) Sonus Faber Il Cremonese 4) YG Acoustics 5) Vimberg Mino/Tonda 6) TAD
All these speakers should provide full range sound, be fairly neutral throughout the audioband (look at Stereophile’s measurements of the Blade, Vivid, or Vimberg for example -- they measure extremely flat), and have smooth and even lateral and vertical directivity responses.
I own a pair of 802 D3's in a room similar in size, except I have 17' ceilings. I love the speakers! If I had the budget, I would have purchased the 801's. As far as power goes, you need an amp that can deliver tremendous current to make them sing. Don't get caught up in the high wattage BS. It's all about current delivery. I am powering mine with a CODA 16. This amp has enough current in reserve to power a small city. There is much better out there than Mac.
Lastly, your ears are the only judge, not our opinions. Enjoy the journey. You must listen to combinations and see what excites you. Choose wisely since the amp/speakers will be the combo you will hold onto the longest. The accessory components will be ones you upgrade on a more frequent basis.
Hey @battbot: where in Virginia are you? If in Northern Virginia, plenty of dealers to audition speakers. As you should for that kind of money.
For some reason, some people don’t like B&W speakers. I’d say, if you like the sound, go for them. The series 800, 803 and higher up in line are outstanding, and compete very well with much more expensive brands out there. That is if you like their sound signature. All speakers typically have their own sound signature.
I am in Northern Virginia. PM me if you like to talk. I have the 803 D3 driven by T+A PA 3100 HV integrated amp.
P.S. B&W 800s Diamonds sounding bright is totally BS. Certainly not bright if you drive them with proper amplification
Totally agree with Boxer12. 800 Diamonds are not bright sounding. If you want bright, listen to Kef Reference or Paradigm Persona's (like nails on a chalkboard to my ears)!
In the DC area you also have JS Audio close by in Bethesda. Steve, the owner is as straight arrow as they come and will give you good advise. They have Mac, B&W as well as Wilson and many others. Enjoy the process.
gpullman14 posts09-02-2021 1:40pmif you have a budget of $100K I would seriously consider Audionet Humbolt amp, Mola Mola Tambaqui Dac, Von Schweikert Endeavor SE speakers, a streamer Auralic or Aurender. Innakustik 3500P conditioner Innakustik 2404 cables or Kubala Sosna Elation cables That should be $100K That would be a sweet set up
TOTALLY agree- this would be a sensational setup that competes well with systems costing well over three times the price. Audionet and Mola Mola elements especially are almost unbelievable value-for-money (which is crazy, given that they are very expensive). But by comparison, it's true!
I rarely feel compelled to post on Augiogon, but in this case, I felt obligated to address some of the responses on this post. I owned the 800D3s in the past, and have also owned at some point top range Tannoy, Sonus Faber, and Wilson Audio. I strongly feel that anyone who makes anecdotal comments about the D3 and D4 series being bright, fatiguing, or non-musical... has either never owned the speaker, or never listened to one in a properly configured system. I ran mine with both Nagra and Gryphon equipment (I also had them paired with Mola Mola monoblocks at one point)... and they were never bright or fatiguing. Instead, they were incredibly dynamic, effortless, rich sounding, and had a huge sense of scale. I also loved the fact that they sounded great, regardless of where you sat in the room. Wilson and Tannoy required me to be dead center, to enjoy their sound. No one else could enjoy the system.
I’m in my mid-30s... and still have decent hearing. The tweeter on the D3 and D4 series is magnificent. Extended, grain free, and in my mind, very integrated with the rest of the drivers. I agree with others on this thread, please listen to these speakers in a proper system, and make your own assessment. I’ve listened to YG, Magico, and KEF... I don’t think they sounded better than the 800 series. Considering B&W can leverage economies of scale and can invest massive amounts into both R&D and production techniques... I think they offer more for the money in comparison to some of these boutique brands.
I'm sure most on this forum already know this, but sound is entirely subjective and largely a matter of perspective. Everyone's ears are different and age and environmental factors play a significant role in how you hear. For example, many people here have described B&W, Kef, Paradigm as being "bright" and "harsh". I have listened to the Personas numerous times over the past 5+ years at different venues and showrooms from the Persona B all the way up to the 9H and would never describe them as "harsh" or "bright". Analytical? Yes at times but never fatiguing to my ears. I know many others that share the same thought. Same with B&W...never thought of them as bright or harsh at all (d2 and d3). Perhaps I'm just not sensitive to it or maybe I'm more used to "bright" sounding speakers but again that's my point. All subjective :)
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