Before I ask my question let me provide some context.
My system includes the following:
New MacBook Air Running itunes/Music serving hundreds of stored CDs
Macbook connected to my Benchmark DAC3 via Audioquest Coffee USB Cable
DAC balanced connection to Benchmark HPA4 PreAmp
PreAmp balanced connection to Benchmark ABH2 Amp
Benchmark Amp connected to Harbeth C7es-XD Speakers
This configuration has provided a neutral clean, and balanced sound. Really no complaints. However I wanted to add Streaming. So I Signed up for Qobuz and downloaded the App to my MacBook. Using WiFi I found that the Qobuz stream offered superior sound quality to my local CD library. Even Redbook CD quality was better plus the HiRes albums were really good
So now I need to get a dedicated Streamer. Using the MacBook is not convenient and from what I’ve read a Streamer should offer additional SQ enhancement. I’ve done a lot of research and really like the Aurender products plus when I recently purchased my speakers I auditioned them with an Aurender Model 100. The sound was excellent. I plan to go back in a few weeks to audition the $6k N200 model. I’m sure it will sound very good but I will be left wondering what does the N20 sound like? How much better can it be for another $6K? Unfortunately my dealer doesn’t have one to audition and neither does any other dealer near me. I’ve read comments on several forums that the N20 is twice as good as the N200 or that the N200 is nipping at the heals of the N20 or that the N20 just offers a 20% increase in SQ or the N20 blows the N200 out of the water. Without a side by side audition I’m struggling with paying twice the price without a demonstrable and significant SQ improvement. I would expect a SQ that once heard I could never settle for the less expensive model. In my recent experience a more expensive model does’t always win. When buying my speakers I auditioned the Harbeth C7es-XD and the more expensive 30.2 XD model. After almost an hour of back and forth I preferred the lower priced model.
So to conclude has anyone had the opportunity to audition the N20 and N200 together?
If so please Specifically what if any SQ differences did you hear and were they worth an additional $6k?
As I listen to my system streaming from my MacBook with wonderfully smooth, clean HiRes sound I wonder can I actually get significantly more improvement for $6k or $12K?
Thanks for any info and experiences you can provide.
I own an Aurrender N100 and W20SE and have had significant exposure to the N10 and N20 as well as a number competing streamers. Aurrender would always be my choice. In general, each level represents a substantial improvement in sound quality, in all respects. More detailed, natural, lower noice floor, dynamics, and imaging. My digital end and my excellent analog end provide equal sound quality (see my virtual systems).
You will get better sound quality from an N20 than from a N200. In your set up the N20 will sound better, but it is likely to sound significantly better if your preamp and amp were higher quality. So, I think the question to ask is if you are on the path to a better system and will be upgrading your preamp and amp at some point, then N20 is the way to go. If you will stay with the benchmark stuff, then N200.
I’ve had Harbeth speakers with Benchmark electronics and think it is an awesome combination. Very synergistic. That said, Harbeth loudspeakers are not the most revealing speakers (the monitor series are a little more so). I think you would not hear a lot of difference between any of these streamers. At the level of your system, while very good but one I would describe as more musical than analytical, when choosing a streamer I would consider which features you want in the streamer more than sound differences (and therefore recommend you look at others in addition to Aurender).
WRT Aurender, they are excellent for sure. I’ve owned both the N200 and N20. The biggest difference between the two is that the N20 has a superior OCXO clock in it (which is only used if you use the SPDIF or AES output) and also does upsampling on the fly. Otherwise if you are going to use USB output I would not personally splurge for the N20. Even then, the N150 might suit just fine. If your dealer is willing try to borrow them and see (hear) for yourself.
I mentioned features being what I would recommend looking at at this level above potential sound quality. These include desired interface (Roon vs Aurender Conductor vs Innuous sense, etc.), upsampling/downsampling capablity (very robust in Lumin products for example), outputs available (USB, SPDIF or AES/EBU) compared to what may be the best input on your DAC, streamers having inboard storage (aurender) vs requiring an outboard server (Lumin), and such things. There are so many permutations that unfortunately it may take owning a few of these different manufacturers’ models before really understanding what you like best.
But overall I think finding a streamer that suits your needs and preferences will give you more satisfaction. Before spending a lot of cash on a more expensive streamer I would try to hear in your own system if the differences in sound between streamers are that obvious. Dealers will tell you the N20 is leaps and bounds above the 200, and it is great - IF your system and room allows you to use it to its potential and you can hear a difference via your system.
Sorry, you asked what differences between the N200 and N20. When I used the N20 AES output upsampled, driving either a Denafrips Terminator (also using its upsampling) or Mojo audio DAC, compared to the N200 the sound is cleaner, clearer, more refined overall. These traits I value and one reason I liked the Benchmark equipment with Harbeth. Once I got a DAC that I would be using only USB with, I went to the N200. USB input will use the clock in your DAC as opposed to the one in the streamer.
+1 @ghdprentice Building a system is all about balance, and spending $12k on a streamer in your current system is over the top IMHO. You’re better off taking that other $6k and upgrading another component, adding room treatments, etc. The N200 is going to be such a big improvement over your computer it’s really hard to see you being disappointed or having buyer’s remorse. Go for it!
Spending $12K on a streamer is a waste of resources on that level of a system unless you upgrade everything (plan on spending $75K). Streamers do not contribute as much to the sound as a good DAC.
I would much rather have a $2K streamer into a $10K DAC than the reverse. I currently run a $5K streamer into a $19K DAC and have no desire to upgrade. I am a person who is never satisfied and always wants the latest and greatest!
Thanks to each of you for your thoughtful responses. You have given me much to think about. I guess it's possible that my system is not of a level where I will hear all the N20 has to offer. I currently don't plan on upgrading my Pre Amp, Amp or DAC at the moment as I consider them to be excellent performers with extremely low distortion and very high SNR. But who knows. As you all know nothing is forever when it comes to Audio components. I'm thinking that once I audition the N200 I'll like it so much I won't feel the need to go for the N20. Although one of the reasons from a feature perspective I like about the N20 was the OCXO clock for BNC and Coax. With N200 I'd stay with USB or possibly it's Coax. Benchmark told me that if you have a good Coax out the DAC3 Coax will perform better than the USB. BTW Roon not an issue for me.
@jfrmusic I probably did but I’m sorry, it’s been several years since I had the N200, I honestly can’t remember too much about that specifically. But again the DAC itself plays a large part in the quality of the USB input. So if Benchmark recommends the coax I’d probably let that guide your decision.
N200 in that system makes more sense than the N20.
I’m currently using the N200 with Bricasti M3 DAC connected with AQ Diamond. The N200 with Coffee will be a significant improvement over your laptop. You won’t regret it.
@jfrmusicplease note the statements about your Benchmark kit stated up this thread by others, while worded with authoritative tones, amount to nothing more than anecdotal opinions and do not constitute facts. I do not argue their collective conclusion of your not needing a highest-priced streamer, however! 😅
The paradigm of proportionate prices among kit in a chain is never well explained or validated empirically by folks who promote it. You may not want evidence-over-opinion, in which case just disregard this reply. 😁
I would ask why a 3-figure streamer would not be sufficient for your chain. Also remember that with a dedicated streamer you are paying for software/user interface and future OS support from the company. You’re paying for a niche computer, most of which have not existed (in this form) as any model for a decade yet. Proceed with scrutiny, IMO
The reason you like the files on Qobuz could be as simple as they’re using preferable source files than those from your CD library; many folks complain about dynamic compression in newer masters / remasters, but many of these new renditions can sound surprisingly “present” through some systems. Source file should theoretically matter more than anything downstream in the chain, at least until you get to your speakers. So you might try to identify why Qobuz sounds better to you than your CD’s instead of trusting a particular dedicated streamer model to take things where you hope for them to go. Or not… 😉
Pretty bad assumptions are made above, @benanders
1. I owned Benchmark DAC 3 HGC long enough to know it
2. I’ve used several streamers - Mac Mini, Auralic Aries G1, Lumin U1 Mini, Bricasti M3 built in network renderer, tried WiiM Pro Plus just to see what the hype is all about and to confirm its all hype. My current streamer is an Aurender N200.
Few other points worth notng - the N200 has a slot for an internal SSD and that is the absolute best way to set up your local library. I loaded a Samsung SSD with my CD rips and it sounds amazing - much better than with an HDD connected via USB cable.
The difference between the streamers is very audible and the components in the OP’s setup will reveal it. If there’s a three figure streamer as good as the N200 with the same features and build, I’d like to know what it is and where I can purchase it.
Source file should theoretically matter more than anything downstream in the chain, at least until you get to your speakers.
Source file is extremely important. But what you’re saying here is streamer, dac, preamp and amp don’t matter as much as the source file and I disagree. I can airplay a song from YouTube to my N200 and with its low resolution and quality it will sound a million times better than the best version of it played thru a garbage chain of components feeding the same speakers. Yet another bad assumption on your part.
Heyya @audphile1then you misunderstood my intent in that reply. I don’t prefer to segment quotes bc of how that can be misleading, but for expediency’s sake:
1. I owned Benchmark DAC 3 HGC long enough to know it
I believe it. You are N = 1 (sample size). And you gave no empirical evidence as to why that model was unfavorable. That’s not in contrivance to what I stated above.
2. I’ve used several streamers - Mac Mini, Auralic Aries G1, Lumin U1 Mini, Bricasti M3 built in network renderer, tried WiiM Pro Plus just to see what the hype is all about and to confirm its all hype. My current streamer is an Aurender N200.
Also fine. But also full of bias as is most any similar pursuit. Shouldn’t be stated to come off as factual evidence because it’s not. Nothing wrong with such an opinion so long as it’s worded accordingly. IMO. 😉
Few other points worth notng - the N200 has a slot for an internal SSD and that is the absolute best way to set up your local library. I loaded a Samsung SSD with my CD rips and it sounds amazing - much better than with an HDD connected via USB cable.
Aurender is not unique in this distinction. I do not argue the superiority of SSD implementation for file storage and retrieval - from a software standpoint alone it makes hypothetical sense. So opinioN = 2 here. 😉😉
The difference between the streamers is very audible and the components in the OP’s setup will reveal it. If there’s a three figure streamer as good as the N200 with the same features and build, I’d like to know what it is and where I can purchase it.
And now we’re back to limited hearsay. I feel the same way only in reverse - I didn’t hear any 4-5 fig streamer that offered predictable audible improvements to justify price such extreme price discrepancies, but if such a thing is properly demo’ed (with evidence-over-opinions) to exist, I’ll be interested.
“Source file should theoretically matter more than anything downstream in the chain, at least until you get to your speakers.”
Source file is extremely important. But what you’re saying here is streamer, dac, preamp and amp don’t matter as much as the source file and I disagree. I can airplay a song from YouTube to my N200 and with its low resolution and quality it will sound a million times better than the best version of it played thru a garbage chain of components feeding the same speakers. Yet another bad assumption on your part.
Just because someone holds a differing opinion doesn’t make it a “bad assumption”. The tendency of using “trigger” terms and overly-authoritative tone seems to go hand-in-hand for some folks. Why? This is just music kit for fun, whatever prices one talks oneself into.
As others have said the N20 uses an OCXO versus a TCXO on the N200. This will have no impact at all if you use the USB connected to your DAC. Before I bought my N200, I researched this alot and spoke extensively to Aurender at last year's Axpona show. I planned on using just the USB for my Holo Audio May KTE DAC. They did claim there are some other minor things that would make the N20 superior, but they seemed very minor to me, and I didn't think the extra money was worth it in my system. I'm very happy with my N200's sound quality.
You may want to look into a 432evo Aeon from @audiotroy. it is a little more than the N200 but as you upgrade the rest of your system the Aeon would fit right in.
Devils Advocate here. You really like your current sound. You state having the computer in the system isn’t convenient. I am presuming that you wish to use the Mac and not have it tethered to your DAC. Why not buy another PC for non music usage, and add a program such as Audirvana to the current Mac, that basically shuts down a lot of the sonically bad stuff that the Mac is doing?
The evidence is in the pudding. Try yourself and you may be in for a pleasant surprise. The $6K (N200) and $12K (N20) are not for everyone…OP asked for opinion between the two and the members with direct experience chimed in.
If I may, why ask for properly demoed evidence from members here than trying the two aforementioned streamers in your system? IMHO, If you’re happy with raspberry pi and don’t have any inclination to try a streamer like N200 in your system then no amount of empirical evidence would convince you or anyone. Plenty of users here are quite content with using their laptops as a source for streaming.
The only thing we can agree on is the origin of source file….this is indeed important much like rest of the components in your system. A well recorded file would sound good in any decent system but in a well put together system, you uncover nuances in that very recording that were previously inaudible or one didn’t know even existed.
In @jfrmusic system, the MACbook Air is a bottleneck given rest of his system. Stepping up to N200 would be a very audible improvement based on my past experiences. I have owned many Aurender models over the years, starting out with N100 and each time I stepped to next model, I heard marked improvement in terms of perceived detail, liquidity, transparency, pacing and noise floor. Did all of these nuances adds up to spending 2x, 3x or 4x more ….the answer to that would be very subjective and dependent on each individual pursuit. I’ve made my progression from N100 to N30SA….guess what, no regrets at all cause when I cue up a recording, my system gets out the way and I’m being treated with music and the story within each of those compositions.
If it were me, I'd buy a used N200 or N10 and use the rest to upgrade other components. I suspect that your system isn't going to reveal a huge difference between an N200 and N20, but it will be somewhat "future proof". The N10 was a beautiful streamer when I tested it, as was N200.
@benanders empirical and factual evidence, hearsay, bias.
I’m in this hobby because I love music and enjoy gear. I don’t measure harmonics with an oscilloscope. And I don’t have to in order to provide thoughts based on actual experience.
@lalitkcovered everything else in his response so I won’t reiterate it.
@JFRMusic you have gotten a lot of great advice and points of view. I’ve cycled through some gear in my system, DAC’s, streamers, Pre’s, Amps and Speakers. I haven’t had the pleasure of having a Aurender Streamer grace my system, based on the brands reputation, one of the best in streaming / digital. I have had Auralic, Lumin, Node streamers, PC’s being used for streaming and ROON. I had all in one boxes, Lumin D2, P1, Node (my first) and separate streamer / DAC’s. Separate streamers made a difference, I compared a P1 using the streamer only to a stand alone streamer (G2) and even though the P1 is 3 - 4 x the price, stand alone streamer bested any other configuration. When comparing streamers my experience was the differences were subtle, even with big price leaps and different didn’t mean better. Upgrades to the streamer’s power supply, cabling, noise management beyond the streamer made bigger differences. Synergies between the Streamer and DAC are huge. If the manufacture of the streamer designed it work best with USB but your DAC is specifically designed for AES you won’t squeeze the best out of either. I ran through the above to highlight you have a great set up, carefully matched with synergy throughout the chain, one piece complementing the other. Chose a streamer that continues in that tradition, from the sounds of it, the less expensive Aurender model fits your gear the best from a synergy, cost, diminishing returns point of view. It’s no doubt a great streamer that if you upgraded other components would still be right at home.
Some of the best advice I’ve gotten from various audiophiles and dealers is that speakers have the biggest influence over your happiness. If you have speakers that you love, you then build your system around them. Once you get past speakers, and amp that pairs well, preamp that matches what you value sound wise. Then if you stream, digital chain would be the DAC being the most important piece followed by a streamer. Now, in the digital chain everything matters but you can get a solid streamer and DAC that won’t break the bank that sound great and where you’d have to spend a lot more $$ to see improvements. Thoughtfully and purposefully designed Streamers / DAC’s are as important as the price. Also don’t sleep on the interface / app that comes with the streamer. That’s a huge part of if you’ll enjoy the streamer, along with some of the features offered. Support for those is also key, companies that routinely update / upgrade their Apps. Aurender does, Lumin, Aurilac are 3 that do a great job with this. BluOS is a great app, if you slide into Niam, NAD or some other higher end brands that use it, it’s likely the best app out there.
Thanks again for all the great responses. I’m gratefull to each of you for considering and answering my question. I really appreciate it. I think my current system is pretty revealing. The Benchmark products tend to be underestimated because of their size and price but I’ve not heard anything significantly better at two or three times the price of this stack (DAC3, HPA4, and ABH2) which cost close to $9k. Plus they are so easy to move around. However your points are well taken and the law of diminishing returns will most likely lead me to the N200 as I definitely want the MacBook out of the system as I know a dedicated streamer will offer better SQ as well as convenience based on my audition of the Aurender 100 which was an older discontinued model.It sounded very good. Better than my computer based system.
So one more piece of advice I seek.
To those who have purchased Aurenders can the Aurender models be purchased below List price? If so what can you tell me about what a fair discount might be?
Actually I just sold my two REL T/5x subs. I just could not get them smoothly integrated with my Harbeth C7s. Probably because the low end of the C7 is only down 3db at 45hz. Tried a variety of combinations of Crossover/Volume. Felt they just negatively impacted the natural soundstage of the C7s which have perfectly adequate bass down to 40hz. With my Spectrum analyzer I can even see some below 35hz output. The C7s just sounded more open and holographic without the subs. The RELs are really low bass reinforcement rather than true subs with their sweet spot around 35-42hz. So I think they were just mudding up the C7 low end.
We just had a client take delivery of an Aeon which he preferred over his N20.
That makes two clients who have preferred our Aeon over an aurender n20.
Our servers are completely upgradable, which means you can move from one level to another, this also means that the server can be improved ,when ever new and improved parts become available.
Maybe another solution is the MACBOOK M2 Pro, 12-Core CPU, 19-Core GPU 16GB Unified Memory, 1TB SSD Storage (Dedicated) + Audirvana Studio. I sold my Aurender N20 and purchased the above. Sound quality is an excellent.
Audirvana Studio easy to use, has many settings and the sound quality is superb.
Interesting approach. Amazing you gave up the N20. Maybe ask why you went this way? In any case thanks for the suggestion. I would rather have no Mac or Windows computer in the mix.
Is Aurrender upgrading their product line in the next year...Roon connective...upgrading DACs, clocks, and chips?? I heard this but unable to confirm... Aurrender is on my list to finalize/complete my digital side...but waiting for news on the updates?? Any news...your thoughts/insight are appreciated?
The evidence is in the pudding. Try yourself and you may be in for a pleasant surprise. The $6K (N200) and $12K (N20) are not for everyone…OP asked for opinion between the two and the members with direct experience chimed in.
If I may, why ask for properly demoed evidence from members here than trying the two aforementioned streamers in your system? IMHO, If you’re happy with raspberry pi and don’t have any inclination to try a streamer like N200 in your system then no amount of empirical evidence would convince you or anyone. Plenty of users here are quite content with using their laptops as a source for streaming.
…
@lalitkI don’t want to digress from the purpose of this thread, but I want to acknowledge your thoughtful comments.
I did have one or two Aurender units through my system some time back along with several other streamers - I’d need to rummage out my notes (literally) to recall model(s). Not a proper double-blind test or prolonged exposure, rather just for fun of the units’ owners who wanted to compare on bigger speakers in a “bigger” room. I turned a blind eye to the swapping processes and couldn’t track predictable differences. People (including myself) can usually perceive differences when switching equipment in the chain, but prior experience suggests to me it’s rarer for those differences to be predictable if confounding factors are properly controlled for.
Be that as it may, I surely wasn’t having guests over to rain on their parade - they seemed to have fun. I would still be curious about any properly designed comparison of streamer units. You’re probably correct in the assumption it wouldn’t make me want to spend 4 figs for a single-task computer with a small company-dependent OS, but that wouldn’t make it any less enlightening, and would certainly be useful to those actually interested in such purchases.
When all this is discussed openly as personal opinion (as you clearly did) I see no issue. Thank you.
@jfrmusic, You asked “ May I ask why you went this way?” Very simple. Two of my friends with expensive audio system went with Audirvana Studio and stated their Sound quality was much improved. I contacted others and they agreed. So, I installed a demo Audirvana Studio on my MAC computer and was impressed. After several months of listening, and comparing to my N20, I purchased a dedicated MACBOOK M2 Pro, 12-Core CPU, 19-Core GPU 16GB Unified Memory.
@jfrmusic, You asked “ May I ask why you went this way?” Very simple. Two of my friends with expensive audio system went with Audirvana Studio and stated their Sound quality was much improved. I contacted others and they agreed. So, I installed a demo Audirvana Studio on my MAC computer and was impressed. After several months of listening, and comparing to my N20, I purchased a dedicated MACBOOK M2 Pro, 12-Core CPU, 19-Core GPU 16GB Unified Memory with Audirvana
have to agree with @benanderson this one. The extent to which streamers have a “sound” is somewhat controversial in some circles (i.e., if jitter and power source noise is minimized). So spending a lot of $ on your first streamer seems like a bit of a leap. There are a lot of well regarded streamers for $1k or less. A partial list includes: Volumio, Pro-Ject, iFi, cambridge audio, even the Wiim Pro for a mere $150.
oops, sorry, you need both a server for your use case. But same idea, even more so on the server side. For that, there are a lot of cheaper alternatives; one that I have alot of experience with are the sonicTransporters from Snall Green Computer. You can have a very nice unit for under $1.5k, and it comes preloaded with Roon if you ever decide to go that route (which I also recommend - it works seamlessly with Quobuz).
@jfrmusicI have done the spdif to USB comparison with my N200. To answer your question, I prefer the USB interface. The coax was pretty good though but it sounded a bit too reserved and lacked in soundstage, dynamics and extension.
I used DH Labs D750 digital coax and the “stock” Aurender supplied USB cable.
Going from the stock Aurender USB cable to Audioquest Diamond further widens the gap.
However, just to be clear, the results aren’t guaranteed to be consistent with every DAC.
When it comes to usb interface, the DAC implementation and clock is what matters the most. With spdif the clock in the transport/streamer is a critical element. The N200 is optimized for USB while featuring a decent clock for spdif. This is where the N20 takes it up a notch or three with its integrated OXCO clock that takes care if the outbound spdif signal better than the lower grade clock in the N200 does.
Great thread here with input from a number of trusted sources that I "listened" to when going through my streamer selection process six months ago. I decided on Aurender and was going to go with a new N150 but decided instead to search for a gently used/ one owner N200. I had to be patient and diligent in my search and it took several months. Worth the process, wait and search.
Thanks for doing the comparison. Can you tell me what DAC you are using?
I’m sure I’ll do the same comparison when I get my streamer. As I mentioned Benchmark recommended the SPIDF because of its patented “Jitterlock” feature on the DAC3 and said the SPDIF Coax would be better. So I will have to try both.
@jfrmusic my current DAC is a Bricasti Designs M3. You can check out my system under my user ID, details.
I 100% agree you should try both coax and usb when you get your streamer.
I do remember preferring usb with DAC3 HGC but your ears be the judge.
One other cool thing in the N200 that I really appreciate is the Critical Listening Mode. It shuts off the display and non-essentials. There’s a small difference but it is there and you can hear the lowered noise floor. I usually don’t like keeping the displays on the DAC, streamer and preamp on anyway and this feature is perfect for me in every way.
Just a point to keep in mind for anyone considering the idea of using a Mac running Audirvana if you have a significant collection of DSD files. Macs will only play DSD via DoP (DSD over PCM, which transmits DSD data in PCM frames) since they don’t support native DSD playback. This is then limited by the DAC and its support of DoP which many only do up to DSD64, some 128 and even fewer 256. Windows PCs can support native DSD with the ASIO driver, but of course they have other issues that would need to be considered.
I found the Benchmark a bit too matter of fact and cool sounding for my taste. While it’s a significant step in the right direction by the designers at Benchmark compared to the DAC 1 that I used to have years ago, it still retains that studio monitoring tool vibe.
When I picked up the M3 I had A/B’d the two DACs.
The Bricasti sounds more natural and engaging in my system, to me. There’s an improvement across the board over the Benchmark DAC starting with its black background, better bass, clearer mids and more delicate highs to the soundstage. The M3 better matches the rest of my system as well. It also has a killer volume control if it needs to be used as a makeshift preamp, is better built, has linear power supply with digital and analog sections isolated, two toroidal transformers, lower noise floor and better details. It has multiple filters and clock settings that let you dial it in to best fit your system. Display that tells you the format/bitrate (auto shutoff) vs the tiny lights on DAC3. This isn’t a benchmark beat down. The Benchmark DAC 3 is an excellent DAC in its price category. I’m not downplaying its capabilities by any means.
One more thing to add…I think the very resolving, dynamic but sweet/tube like sounding N200 with the right digital cable and power cord will greatly complement the DAC3. That’s why I stated it will be a good match.
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