Aurender Model Choices

Has anyone else had the problem of the updated conductor app crashing on iPhone? Can’t even load it after update to 4.11. Worked fine before

Click on hamburger menu on top right then choose Create System. 

https://www.audiogon.com/systems

Ok where is System page?

@jfrmusic congrats! Go to system page and you should be able to upload photos there. 

Finally got my Aurender N20 and MSB Discrete DAC. The MSB took 3 weeks to arrive. I’m running the MSB direct into my AHB2. Tried the HPA4 and direct method was significantly better. So far sounds really good will post more after I give it a break in time. But I can say the soundstage is excellent especially depth and the low end solid and impactful. Highs are smooth. Looking forward to see how it improves over the next week  as it burns in. Already sounds better after 4 hours. How do I post a photo of my setup?

People think I'm crazy when I tell them in my experience I've heard bigger differences between music server/ streamers than between DACs. 

Just received My new N20 Replacing a N200. The N20 is connected cardas usb to Holo May KTE. Using My Pass 250, breaking in new TRIANGLE - 40th Anniversary Comete EZ. I had been through a lot of streamers. From all the Eversolo models A6 to A8. I tried the Hi fi Rose 130 transport. It was pretty but it did not sound good in my system. Then I got a good deal on a Aurender N200 and bliss returned. Kept reading the opinions on the Aurender models and decided to try the next level. What a Difference!! The triangles and not suppose to be about bass, and they were not. Just a nice even beautiful midrange. That all change with the N20. They now sound like a sub is on. Really hard to believe the difference. Soundstage is huge and detail is much improved, shockingly so. I still would recommended the N200 to anybody, but the N20 in my system is on a whole different level. 

You're welcome timski! I'll be curious as to your thoughts on this.  

It could be a synergistic thing with the Chord DAVE.  I'm not sure how many DAC's still have an optical connection, but I believe MSB does also.  

@polyrhythm9 

Thanks for the idea.  I just tried toslink from my Innuos Pulse to my MHDT Orchid and it sounds really good.  It’ll take more listening to see if it is indeed better than USB or Coax, but it has some promise for sure.

I used an N200 for about a year and then upgraded to the N20 (initially used with AES connection to Chord DAVE DAC).

The first thing I noticed was a larger soundstage-both wider and deeper compared to the N200.  Instruments sound a bit more natural as well.  With the AES connection on the N20, I also noticed that the top end was a bit recessed though-compared to using the USB connection with N200 into Chord DAVE DAC. .

So, based on a recommendation to use the Optical (toslink) connection from the N20 to the DAC, I heard MUCH  more air and top end.   This was a SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE- and sounds much, much better to my ears- better as in an entirely different unit. The kicker is that it was also recommended that using an inexpensive toslink cable (fiber optic cable) from Amazon - less than 10 dollars- would be fine.  And it is!  The N20 sound quality is now excellent.  

I'm still a bit shocked how much of a difference the Optical (toslink) connection makes with the N20 to Chord DAVE DAC compared to using a much more expensive AES cable.   

I highly recommend trying this method of connection if possible. 

@jfrmusic,

Word Clock Mode (N20/N30/W20/W20SE Only)

Word Clock is automatically turned on when a word clock signal is detected on the BNC input. When Word Clock mode is on, the SPDIF output will synchronize with the word clock signal.

For 44.1, 88.2 and 176.4 kHz sampling rate music, 44.1, 88.2 and 176.4 kHz word clock or a 22.5792 MHz master clock signal are valid.

For 48, 96 and 192 kHz sampling rate music. 48, 96 and 192 kHz word clock or a 24.576 MHz master clock signal are valid.

Click here for Conductor app settings

please see Conductor App settings since I think something has to be turned on. This might be different between V3 and V4.  Please verify by looking at the App’s settings.  

@hgeifman 

Thanks for all the information. Very much appreciated. Aurender has list of recommended SSD drives on their site. I got one of the Samsung units. I did speak to Vince about the word clock cable he said no specific recommendation. Said to experiment. I asked Vince if there were any strings I needed to make to use the clock. He said no. It will automatically sense it. So you’re saying there is a setting in the app I need to address to use the clock out?

More info:

The SSD Disk installation means you loosen the screws on the back of the unit, pull out the slot, insert the SSD, push in and tighten the screws (top slot is Music1). After I installed the SSD, I went to the Conductor App, settings, disk information tab to format the SSD. If, for some reason, the format command does not appear, please power down (turn electrical power off) and restart manually. Restarting takes time since the N20has UPS circuitry inside.

I checked for software updates on the N20 (there were none) and deleted my old Conductor App and installed a new copy from the App Store on my iPad. Once your albums have been loaded to the Aurender Hard Drive, please back them up to an external hard drive. DO NOT FORGET THIS IMPORTANT STEP.

NOTE:  "In the Conductor app, go to Settings>Backup & Restore>Backup to Music1/backup. This will create a small backup file which contains your library database information including playlists, ratings, settings, and streaming "add to library" content. This backup file will be saved to your Aurender's Music1 internal storage drive in a folder named "backup." NOTE: this file does NOT contain any actual music files. It is only the library directory database".  Maybe ask your retailer for more information.  

@jfrmusic, I suggest you ask Vince from MSB what word clock cable you should use between the Aurender N20 and the MSB DAC (highly recommended). Change the Conductor App word clock setting for the N20 to use the word clock option.

I also suggest you ask your Retailer what hard drives (including sizing for your albums) they recommend for your Aurender N20 to include explaining the Aurender N20 Conductor App hard drive format instructions. Your Aurender Conductor App includes a Remote Internet Technical Support if you have any issues. This allows Aurender to connect to your unit, if needed.

Please discuss with your retailer and read the on line Aurender instructions for transferring music files to your Aurender Music Server to include how to handle the album cover art. Aurender Music servers scan locally stored files for embedded artwork. If there is no embedded cover art for the file, then the scanner checks the folder the files are located in for a "folder.jpg","cover.jpg", or "front.jpg" (".png" files work too) image associated with the files to indicate a front album cover. When neither of these criteria are met, the software will display a generic image as album cover art. Unfortunately, some media software programs such as iTunes handle cover art much differently. Instead of using embedded album artwork tags, iTunes uses "sidecar" files containing album cover art and other metadata. Unfortunately, this data is not relevant or viewable outside of iTunes. This process is a little complicated so please confirm everything before you start the actual transfer. I suggest a test of loading 10 albums before you transfer everything.

Click here for handling album cover art

Click link for transferring albums to Aurender

I suggest you connect to QoBuz first to ensure everything works and sounds great. After this, you can deal with setting up your hard drives and loading them with content. Please scan the Conductor App settings to ensure your settings are correct for your application. I hope this helps.

Ooh. I would have taken the Cardas offer. That is a good cable.

I tried Blue Jeans a couple times just to see if they were any better than other common cheap interconnects and cables… they were not.

@willywonka 

Very interesting! So I have a A 20 which is similar to the n200. I have it hooked via USB to an Esoteric K01 XD with a superior clock. To clarify Aurender says that it is then using the DAC clock correct? 
 

That would make the upgrade to N20 benefit only the power supply.

“do i need an expensive cable”

@jfrmusic 

Simple answer is NO. Keep in mind, you are dealing with a sine wave that is easily susceptible to noise and jitter. Start with a generic 75 ohms cable and you may or may not appreciate any improvements over a very fine N20’s OCXO internal clock.

The impedance and shielding characteristics of a clock cable are of utmost importance in maintaining the integrity of sine wave signal between the two devices being clocked. A better cable will allow you to appreciate the enhanced realism and transparency typically realized from a superior clocking system. BTW, you need 75ohm cable not 50ohm as I previously stated since Discrete DAC only has word clock output. 

As @audphile1 pointed out, settle in with your gear and address cabling at later stages of your journey. You can refer to my system when you’re ready to experiment with better cabling. 

@lalitk 

That BNC cable you referenced is $750. The BNC connection from the MSB to the Aurender is transmitting clocking. Not audio. So do I need an expensive cable?

@audphile1 

Yes that’s the plan. Starting with good quality tested cables from Blue Jeans to be used as a baseline before investing in anything else. I did buy the Ethergen switch because when I spoke to MSB they recommended it. They also said don’t go crazy on cables. 

@jfrmusic my recommends would be to start with a baseline level Ethernet cable like the bluejeans you had mentioned or even the Amazon Linkup cable. Don’t invest in switches or any other network tweaks. The MSB Discrete has a built in preamp section correct? So I would try that in place of the benchmark preamp. You have a digital front end that’s a good few levels above your amplification chain. See how the MSB volume control sounds vs the benchmark pre and layout a plan to upgrade the amplification next. Put the cable upgrades and tweaks on back burner for now. Just my $0.2.

@jfrmusic 

That’s a pretty darn good digital front, congratulations! With MSB clock, you will elevate N20 performance to another level. Start scouting for high quality BNC - 50 ohm and AES cables. I found SoTM dcBL BNC50 as one of the best cable for this application under $1K. 

Thanks. 
 

One other thing I forgot to mention. They offered me discount on an expensive Cardas Ethernet cable. I declined. I want to start with the CAT 6 certified un shielded cable from Blue Jeans. Plus they were running plain RJ45 cable all over so that’s what I auditioned. I did order an Uptone Ethernet Switch. So I’m thinking that should give me a noise free connection. 
 

Also today I think demonstrated  subjectively for me that more expensive equipment doesn’t always lead to better sound. Again subjectively. . Those very expensive Excelon speakers really overwhelmed the N30 and higher end MSB. Poor synergy can be a problem. This recreation of the live music experience in our home is truly an art and a science. 

Congratulations. You will be very happy. The N20 is an outstanding sounding streamer. 

Wow, great write up and excellent gear choices, that will be quite the system. 

@jfrmusic congratulations!!! That’s one heck of a digital front end! Enjoy it and keep us posted!

@lalitk definitely worth trying.

Ok I had my audition and it was quite an adventure so this may be a little long!

Test 1

I started my audition with the Aurender N200 connected to an Esoteric DAC (not sure which model) then through a Hegel Pre and Amp feeding  the Harbeth 7es-XD Speakers which are the ones I own. The sounds were very good with a nice soundstage and loads of transparency yet I noticed a little lower treble brightness on strings and the soundstage seemed to be overly lit up. They didn't have an Aurender N20 but did have a N30 in another room I asked to hear that.I thought the DAC or Amp may be the issue and not the Aurender.

Test 2

This room did not have my speakers so many variables changed. The N30 was connected to an MSB DAC and I'm not sure which one but is was one of their multi box units. The Amps where some giant floor mono blocks that were about 2' by 3' and 6" high.which were feed by their their companion preamp. The brand began with a V but I had never heard of it. The speakers were large Excelon floor model units which sell for $110K per pair. So quite a different mix. Any way I can tell you and you may think I'm crazy but I preferred the sound in the first test. The treble in this room was more in your face and not as smooth and the bass while more robust didn't have a natural feel to me. Plus the sound stage while large just seemed off and somewhat exaggerated. Even my sales agent thought the same. This is a new speaker line they just brought on. Anyway I guess some like this type of presentation and are willing to pay a lot for it.I thought the Speakers were the issue in this test.

Test 3

Went back to room one. I asked for the MSB Discrete DAC to be used with the Aurender N200. I asked about the Network streaming capability with the MSB to see if that would be an option to eliminate the Aurender. They said the MSB can only be used as a Roon endpoint. I was sure you could also use Mconnect but they were adamant about it. Now the Aurender N200 only supports USB and S/PDIF Coax. So they said they would need to add two inter connecting USB add-on modules to the MSB. I questioned the need for these two modules as the MSB site shows a basic USB module and an advanced Fiber Optic based two unit addition. The techs there said you can only use the two unit device to get USB. So we proceeded with the test. Let me tell you the MSB Discrete utterly smoked the Esoteric. No contest! In every facet the MSB was superior. Bass, Soundstage, Transparency, Imaging with a beautiful treble. No hash. No Grain. Just amazing. Just swapping the MSB in and the Esoteric out completely transformed this system. It shows how source is so important on one side of the audio equation and speakers on the other.

Upon hearing this I asked for a package deal if I got the Aurender N200 and the MSB Discrete with the optional second power supply (which is how I was auditioning it) and the two unit USB upgrade. They gave me a fair deal but I wanted to think about it so I went to lunch. At lunch I decided to call Vince at MSB. And here's where the story takes a turn.

I asked him first about the USB issue. He said yes there is an original USB module and a more advanced fiber based two device unit. He said the Fiber one was better but not significantly. He asked what Aurender I was considering. He said with that N200 model I would need at least the original USB module as USB performed much better than RCA Coax. BTW each of these add-on modules is $990. He said He uses the Aurender N30 with his own MSB units. So I asked about the Networking and he said yes it's a Roon endpoint but you could use Mconnect he but said it was complicated to make it work right and even he found it complicated. Then he said if you want the absolute best performance from the MSB use an AES connection. So I said then that's an advantage to using the Aurender N20 which supports AES. He said definitely plus you the can also connect the MSB clock out to the Aurender N20 clock in via BNC. He said their clock is superior to the one in the Aurender and that would give me another  significant improvement in performance. He said this combination of AES and BNC would net a minimum of a 30% performance increase to be conservative but it was probably much higher. So he strongly recommended the N20 with the AES/BNC if I wanted to get the best from the MSB.

So I went back to the dealer and ordered:

An Aurender N20

MSB Discrete with the second optional power supply

Hopefully will arrive in a week.

Sorry for the long story but I wanted to explain what transpired. I want an endgame system for me. .And this I believe it it. Will maybe there's a still an Amp to be upgraded but that would be it.

Be a happy to field any questions

@audphile1

I have not heard MSB Discrete with MSB renderer but one would assume (given MSB immaculate implementation of these modules) that it shouldn’t sound any worse, different maybe but certainly not worse than when compared with Discrete DAC fed by N200 through its Pro USB module.

For example, my Merging DAC sound pretty darn good with its embedded Roon Core + renderer but clearly Roon rendering is not in the same league as N30SA. The Roon option is only $3500 with Merging DAC, so it’s not a fair comparison but it sounds good enough for most end users 😊 I believe you had a similar experience with Bricasti’s network module. 

@lalitk that’s an interesting point. 

Ah I kind of thought that was it…I’m in north jersey and that’s a hike for me. I’m been there and it’s a good store. Keep us posted. 

@audphile1 

The dealer is Overture in Delaware (home of tax free shopping). It about 30 minutes from me in Southern NJ

@jfrmusic

If you are considering MSB Discrete, then IMHO you may not need N200. I would listen to Discrete with MSB Renderer vs N200 connected through its Pro USB module. Have fun!

👍

Is this a local NJ dealer? MSB is on my list. Not immediately but hopefully not in too distant future. I’d take a ride to hear it if it’s not too far. 

Also I sent an email to MSB and asked if the Discrete was agnostic related to input selection. I may call them before go to the dealer. 

I plan to ask for an Audition of the N200 with coax to a MSB Discrete which my dealer also carries. He doesn’t have an N20 but I think he said he has an N30. 

Aurender seems to favor the SPDIF/AES with the N10/N20's due to the high precision clocking in these units. With USB the streamer is somewhat at the mercy of the clock in the DAC. Given that AES is clearly the favorite of the folks who built both of these units I think you have to suspend the cost worries and listen to them together if you have the chance.

The N200 is a great sounding streamer but the N20 is a much better sounding and more flexible. 
 

Most folks love the Aurrender Conductor app. Like all software, you get used to how it works and it becomes simple and powerful and it is getting better all the time.

@jfrmusic, Maybe you should compare sound quality using an USB connection and an AES/EBU connection. When I made the comparison, I selected AES/EBU.

While there, is it possible to compare N200 to N20 driving the same dac?

I’ll be going to my dealer tomorrow to audition the Aurender N200 and possibly the MSB Discrete DAC. Here is issue I can see looming. I’ll like the N200 and the MSB but the MSB has USB as an option and is optimized for AES. The N200 is optimized for USB but does have regular Coax. If I decided down the road on the MSB I would need to add the optional USB module or if I planned to use MSB optimized AES then the Aurender N20 while more expensive comes into the picture. Or I could just pick a different DAC that’s optimized for USB. My second on my DAC list has been Meitner MA 3 which does have USB. I’ll let you know tomorrow what my what my adventure leads me to. 

I've owned two aurenders.  I think they're great. Build quality, features, support, reliability....all top notch.  I now use an Innous pulsar.  Not as feature rich (USB only), but. the sense app is way better than aurender conductor (IMO), it also sounds better in my system.  I don't think you can go wrong with any aurender, but it's not the only game in town, lots of good streamers out there now. Make sure you're OK with the conductor app before you commit to an aurender, Until they add roon, if they do, it's the only way to access your music.

@jfrmusic, Please remember that The next MSB Premier DAC upgrade requires a $14,500 expenditure, another box, more cables, etc. Of course, I understand that technology dictates the upgrade requirements to achieve the next level of sound quality and the associated price. My Bricasti M21 DAC upgrade was for a new board. My Cost was $1,000 and the sound quality was ‘substantially’ improved. This upgrade makes sense and is an example of Bricasti supporting its customers purchase and investment.

I know MSB Technology is about innovation, advanced design, state of the art products, etc. The Director upgrade price for their more expensive MSB DAC models are around $24,500.

@audphile1 Thanks for the warning

@dbt Thanks for all the MSB info. MSB may be too much for me at this point.

@audphile1 Bingo! 😆 This hifi game is serious business when it should be a simple hoppy for fun!

@jfrmusic Keep in mind the MSB DACs do not come equipped with a USB input.  MSB is a modular DAC and they chose not to include the USB module as many MSB owners prefer the AES input.  I bought the MSB Quadrate USB module directly from MSB to demo and the AES outperformed the USB module, given the (3) different USB cables I tried with it.  It’s hard to try all the different variations of cables and options unless you have a dealer that’s going to let you borrow it, you own it or you’re willing to buy it with an option to return. They do offer an MSB ProISL interface which works in conjunction with their MSB Pro USB input.  That’s supposed to be superior to the standard Quadrate USB input that I ended up returning to MSB.  I listen to 90% traditional jazz and the AES input, plus the Acoustic Zen Absolute AES cable, was simply dead silent and produced the most realistic bass and acoustic instrument presentation I have heard in my system.  I spent days and hours critically listening to the same tunes while switching back in forth inputs and cables.  I conducted blind tests with my brother who could care less about all this hifi stuff and he clearly heard the difference.  He was surprised how a single cable was producing a different sound.  The dealer will explain the MSB DAC features and options to you.

Lastly, I paid way less than what the Discrete DAC costs brand new.  Otherwise, I probably wouldn’t have bought it when I did.

@jfrmusic that’s exactly the situation @dbt is warning you about….

Aurender + MSB Discrete = something you’ll hear that you won’t be able to unhear

good luck dude!

😂

@dbt 

I’d forgotten about the MSB Discrete. I will check it out. The dealer near me where I will go to audition the Aurender also carries MSB. Will give it a listen. 

@jfrmusic No problem!

If I had to choose one of those DACs you mentioned without hearing them, I’d probably get the Mola Mola.  I bought the MSB Discrete because it’s been my first choice of upgrade without hearing it in “my” system and I have no regrets.  I had my eye on the T+A DAC200 as well.  That might be worth considering too.  DCS has a phenomenal reputation, but I didn’t include it in my list of DACs to pursue.

Godspeed to you and keep us posted!

@dbt 

Thanks again for your thoughtful response. It’s always a challenge when considering a component upgrade that is basically fine but may now be surpassed by newer technology. The May might be a nice move from my DAC3 as would the Tambaqui or dCS Lina. But those last two are more than twice the price of the May. 
 

Too many choices and not many to actually compare side by side. 

@jfrmusic Thanks for the gear compliment!

My experience with Benchmark vs. Holo Audio is a good question.  The Benchmark is excellent for the money, but the Holo Audio was smoother, bigger soundstage, better bass, mids, and just produced a better analogue sound to me.  Again, not a night and day difference, but a noticeable difference.  The Holo Audio recommended break time is about 400-500 hours.  It sounded much better once I had it broken in.
 

I have learned that the room is the biggest component in the system and it can make or break your system.  My comparisons have been in the same room, so that eliminates excuses for the DACs.  However, variables, variables, variables.  By that I mean, the Holo Audio DAC may sound better with the Holo Audio Serene preamp vs. your Benchmark preamp, different digital cable offerings, etc?  If you plan to keep your Benchmark DAC, you’ll be able to compare both DACs with it, but you won’t get to hear the same brand pairing with the Holo Audio unless you’re able to demo the Serene preamp in the chain.
 

I hope that helps.