Aurender Model Choices

@audphile1 

Sorry. Must be doing something wrong. 
I get an err page when I click on System Details. 

Ran across this thread on another forum.  Another Benchmark DAC owner reached out to Benchmark to ask about streamers.  Interesting response:

https://www.audioaficionado.org/showthread.php?t=52456

Not really a surprise though.  This is the same company that is highly critical of high priced cables…

@jfrmusic strange…works fine for me. 

I am able to look up @audphile1 fabulous system! Didn’t know you also spin vinyl😊 I have been contemplating getting back into Vinyl…it would be a considerable investment to surpass my digital…lol!

@lalitk thank you! Had to temporarily give up vinyl but going to probably get back into it at some point. Just focusing on digital front end at the moment. Still have my record collection and that’s not going anywhere.

And yes you’re right about the investment in the vinyl front end.
It was an arms race in my system with constant upgrades to both and it kind of ended up being neither here nor there. I think my future vinyl setup will be a separate system and not mixed into the main rig…we’ll see….

@audphile1

Yup, been there done that! When I had both setup, I was constantly thinking about making it better and that took a big bite off enjoying music. So I sold off my SME15AV TT, Hana Umami Red and EAT phono to focus on digital. And I’m kinda glad that I did..my digital is now where I envisioned 😊

PS: I am still hanging on to my modest but exemplary pressings of about 80 vinyls. I still buy one off pressings. 

that’s exactly right! You end up listening too hard for differences and it takes a toll on you. The enjoyment of music moves to background.
 

When your digital reaches certain level what I’ve noticed is vinyl becomes a throwback. It’s like shaving with a straight razor, soap and badger brush once in a while…amazing experience but it isn’t an everyday day kind of thing. 

Here’s another thread, this one on Roon Labs, where several Benchmark DAC owners swear by their Raspberry Pi’s - one discusses his comparison to an Aurender unit:

I found the Aurender A10 i owned to be over rated at best in my system. The one thing I could not get past was the Aurender App its just not up to the standards i expected for the money spent, its rather a let down to just about every other app out there. I used the A10 as a streamer only as the internal DAC was mediocre at best. Supper well made though i'll given them that. 

I believe now after many streamers the DAC and its ability to filter out the nasties is much more important then a multi Kilo$ Streamers that are out there. I found after 4 streamers now the interface is supper important for long term enjoyability.

I also do not find that significant of a difference with these supper expansive streamers. And yes my system is resolving enough to hear the differences, Maybe due to my Chord Dave DAC just keeping the crap out of the signal but I can't hear significant differences that I would say are night and day and/or worth the big $ some of these streamers demand.   

I tried Conductor v3 and yes it’s not the best. But I can tell you the latest v4 is really nice. Still not on par with Roon but light years better than Lumin app and comparable to Auralic LDS. 

@audphile1 

Finally connected using my iPad. iPhone no go.  Strange. 
 

You have certainly had quite an iteration of equipment. Very nice system. Are the PASS amps still there. Also how did you get those heavy amps home and into you room?

Thanks! Yeah the X260.8 monos are my current amps. 

Also how did you get those heavy amps home and into you room?

Adrenaline! 

Just kidding. My son was around and helped me. 

@audphile1 

After reading that thread where Benchmark and some users claim that the streamer you buy is irrelevant as the DAC3 will eliminate all noise and they will all sound the same. You I believe had the DAC3 with both Lumin and Aurender streamers. So what’s your take?

So…I’ve used several streamers with Benchmark but not the n200 as I just recently got it.
I could hear the difference in sound switching out power cords, Ethernet cables and adding Eno Ethernet filter as well as fiber optic conversion and network switch on the streamer. If these changes caused differences in sound, why would different streamers not sound different? I heard a difference between coax and usb and difference between different usb cables with Benchmark. 
 

Keep in mind, some audiophiles with Benchmark DAC3 are totally content and have no plans to upgrade anything. It plays music just fine with rPi and they’re satisfied. They will likely have and be happy with Mogami cables and a stock power cord. 
 

When I called Benchmark with a question on setting gain for XLR outs, the very nice gentleman whose name escapes me at the moment asked me what preamp I was using. I said Pass XP12 (at the time). He recommended that the DAC3 HGC direct into amp will sound better than XP12 as the Pass preamps color the sound. I wasn’t going to argue that point as I have tried it and it didn’t come close to the way XP-12 lays things out in the soundstage. They also recommend their cables and say you don’t need anything better. 

So my recommendation to you would be not to listen to anyone including me 😂

buy the N200 either used or new with a generous trial period to spend enough time with it to make a decision in your own system. Get another streamer as well, cheaper than the N200…may be the lower line Eversolo or something. WiiM Pro Plus or Lumin U2 Mini. Something to compare it too.
Do a shootout. If the N200 doesn’t sound like it’s worth the dough, send it back. keep the cheaper streamer. 
 

@jfrmusic 

This topic has received quite alot of attention on Audiogon - and other forums - recently.  There are definitely opposing views on this, so I would encourage you to do what you’re doing; keep an open mind and sort thru the issues in a systematic way.  One of the better recent threads on this forum for highlighting the disparate perspectives in a reasonably thorough way is at the link below:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/what-makes-one-music-server-sound-better-than-another

Good luck!

@audphile1 

Thanks again. In few weeks I will have chance to audition the N100 and N200. 

Awesome! I’m looking forward to your thoughts. Just make sure that you give each streamer and yourself at least a day, preferably more, before switching out for another unit. A quick A/B is never a good way to compare things. Allocate some alone time for this late in the evening when it’s quiet. That’s what I normally do when I compare components or cables. 

@audphile1 You have a really nice setup and I have read good things about Bricasti!

@jfrmusic I am a big fan of Benchmark because the DAC1 USB was the first external DAC I purchased in about 2008/09 and I owned the DAC3L as well! Years later, I bought a Holo Audio Spring 2 KTE and later, the Spring 3 KTE DAC. I can’t say it was a night and day improvement, but it was much better. However, when I recently purchased a used MSB Discrete DAC w/two power supplies, it was a big improvement over all the DACs mentioned above. I have a LUMIN U2 streamer connected to my MSB with an Acoustic Zen Absolute 110 AES cable and it smokes! I auditioned about (5) different AES cables from The Cable Co. and (3) different USB cables and one Pangea “toslink” cable which was SHOCKINGLY good! The Acoustic Zen Absolute 110 AES cable was the king! I consider my speakers, (Wilson Audio Sabrina X), the quarterback of my system and I built the team of gear around them. This approach has been a success story for me!

I say all this to say, I am a fan of the AES connection and I hear that the Aurender N20 is the ticket if used with the AES and “clock” connection, as others have already mentioned. I would love to try the N20 in my system, but I’m holding tight for now. I think the Aurender streamer will be an improvement for you regardless of which one you choose, but I agree the N20 may be overkill in your system. Nothing beats a failure but a try, so if you were able to demo the N200 and N20, that should help you make a decision and be able to sleep at night!

Keep us posted!

@jfrmusic Of course you know this but it’s worth repeating.  SQ is ONLY in the ear of the beholder.  Sound quality has no relationship to what someone paid for their equipment. I’m often amazed how folks automatically link sales price as THE metric of system performance. 
 

Your experience, in your room is all that matters. If your toe taps along with Hiromi as your system is now, I say enjoy the music. Quality of recording x room acoustics x your ear-brain interface are the only relevant metrics. Making your system sound different doesn’t mean it’s better…unless you perceive it as such. 

I played around with sub-$1000 streamers for quite a while when getting back into audio and based on glowing recommendations I found a used Aurender N200 on TMR for $3000.  My speakers and DAC are not super-high quality but I was blown away by the BIG improvement when I plugged in the N200.  Very cost effective improvement, especially used.

@dbt thank you! Yes the M3 is a really nice DAC!

Your setup is very nice as well! Speaking of N20…I’ve not heard it but the OXCO clock in it should be an improvement over the Lumin U2. Add to that the much beefier power supply and I think it will sing with your MSB DAC. 

@dbt 

You have a wonderful system that I'm sure sounds fantastic. You mentioned you transitioned from the Benchmark DAC3 to the HOLO Audio Spring KTE DAC. I'd be interested in more of your thoughts on that move. Once I get the Aurender I plan to upgrade my DAC3 which I've had for the past 7 years. It is a very good DAC but I think DAC technology has improved especially with the R2R Ladder non Chip based DACs. So at the momentum the Holo Audio May KTE looks very appealing especially at its price point. Any impressions on how the Spring 3 KTE bettered the Benchmark DAC3 would be enlightening.

@audphile1 Thank you!

I have a buddy in my audiophile circle that has the N20 and an upper tier MSB DAC, using the AES and clock connection, and he loves the combination.  I haven’t heard it because we don’t live in the same area.  The price difference between the Aurender N20 and LUMIN U2 is a lot and I’d have to decide if the financial value of the “possibly” better sound quality of the N20 is worth it to me.  That’s what we all have to consider in this hifi game, how much are you willing to pay for a particular sound quality that you love?  The problem is, when we hear it, we cannot unhear it, so we have to decide.  The sound quality chase has to stop somewhere, so I have found contentment in my system.  Stay away from constant hifi reviews if you want to stop the madness because thats what sparks the “how would that sound in my system” mentality!  Lol….

Enjoy the tunes is all I can say!!

@dbt  I’m with you on that 100%. 

@jfrmusic Thanks for the gear compliment!

My experience with Benchmark vs. Holo Audio is a good question.  The Benchmark is excellent for the money, but the Holo Audio was smoother, bigger soundstage, better bass, mids, and just produced a better analogue sound to me.  Again, not a night and day difference, but a noticeable difference.  The Holo Audio recommended break time is about 400-500 hours.  It sounded much better once I had it broken in.
 

I have learned that the room is the biggest component in the system and it can make or break your system.  My comparisons have been in the same room, so that eliminates excuses for the DACs.  However, variables, variables, variables.  By that I mean, the Holo Audio DAC may sound better with the Holo Audio Serene preamp vs. your Benchmark preamp, different digital cable offerings, etc?  If you plan to keep your Benchmark DAC, you’ll be able to compare both DACs with it, but you won’t get to hear the same brand pairing with the Holo Audio unless you’re able to demo the Serene preamp in the chain.
 

I hope that helps.

@dbt 

Thanks again for your thoughtful response. It’s always a challenge when considering a component upgrade that is basically fine but may now be surpassed by newer technology. The May might be a nice move from my DAC3 as would the Tambaqui or dCS Lina. But those last two are more than twice the price of the May. 
 

Too many choices and not many to actually compare side by side. 

@jfrmusic No problem!

If I had to choose one of those DACs you mentioned without hearing them, I’d probably get the Mola Mola.  I bought the MSB Discrete because it’s been my first choice of upgrade without hearing it in “my” system and I have no regrets.  I had my eye on the T+A DAC200 as well.  That might be worth considering too.  DCS has a phenomenal reputation, but I didn’t include it in my list of DACs to pursue.

Godspeed to you and keep us posted!

@dbt 

I’d forgotten about the MSB Discrete. I will check it out. The dealer near me where I will go to audition the Aurender also carries MSB. Will give it a listen. 

@jfrmusic that’s exactly the situation @dbt is warning you about….

Aurender + MSB Discrete = something you’ll hear that you won’t be able to unhear

good luck dude!

😂

@audphile1 Bingo! 😆 This hifi game is serious business when it should be a simple hoppy for fun!

@jfrmusic Keep in mind the MSB DACs do not come equipped with a USB input.  MSB is a modular DAC and they chose not to include the USB module as many MSB owners prefer the AES input.  I bought the MSB Quadrate USB module directly from MSB to demo and the AES outperformed the USB module, given the (3) different USB cables I tried with it.  It’s hard to try all the different variations of cables and options unless you have a dealer that’s going to let you borrow it, you own it or you’re willing to buy it with an option to return. They do offer an MSB ProISL interface which works in conjunction with their MSB Pro USB input.  That’s supposed to be superior to the standard Quadrate USB input that I ended up returning to MSB.  I listen to 90% traditional jazz and the AES input, plus the Acoustic Zen Absolute AES cable, was simply dead silent and produced the most realistic bass and acoustic instrument presentation I have heard in my system.  I spent days and hours critically listening to the same tunes while switching back in forth inputs and cables.  I conducted blind tests with my brother who could care less about all this hifi stuff and he clearly heard the difference.  He was surprised how a single cable was producing a different sound.  The dealer will explain the MSB DAC features and options to you.

Lastly, I paid way less than what the Discrete DAC costs brand new.  Otherwise, I probably wouldn’t have bought it when I did.

@audphile1 Thanks for the warning

@dbt Thanks for all the MSB info. MSB may be too much for me at this point.

@jfrmusic, Please remember that The next MSB Premier DAC upgrade requires a $14,500 expenditure, another box, more cables, etc. Of course, I understand that technology dictates the upgrade requirements to achieve the next level of sound quality and the associated price. My Bricasti M21 DAC upgrade was for a new board. My Cost was $1,000 and the sound quality was ‘substantially’ improved. This upgrade makes sense and is an example of Bricasti supporting its customers purchase and investment.

I know MSB Technology is about innovation, advanced design, state of the art products, etc. The Director upgrade price for their more expensive MSB DAC models are around $24,500.

I've owned two aurenders.  I think they're great. Build quality, features, support, reliability....all top notch.  I now use an Innous pulsar.  Not as feature rich (USB only), but. the sense app is way better than aurender conductor (IMO), it also sounds better in my system.  I don't think you can go wrong with any aurender, but it's not the only game in town, lots of good streamers out there now. Make sure you're OK with the conductor app before you commit to an aurender, Until they add roon, if they do, it's the only way to access your music.

I’ll be going to my dealer tomorrow to audition the Aurender N200 and possibly the MSB Discrete DAC. Here is issue I can see looming. I’ll like the N200 and the MSB but the MSB has USB as an option and is optimized for AES. The N200 is optimized for USB but does have regular Coax. If I decided down the road on the MSB I would need to add the optional USB module or if I planned to use MSB optimized AES then the Aurender N20 while more expensive comes into the picture. Or I could just pick a different DAC that’s optimized for USB. My second on my DAC list has been Meitner MA 3 which does have USB. I’ll let you know tomorrow what my what my adventure leads me to. 

While there, is it possible to compare N200 to N20 driving the same dac?

@jfrmusic, Maybe you should compare sound quality using an USB connection and an AES/EBU connection. When I made the comparison, I selected AES/EBU.

The N200 is a great sounding streamer but the N20 is a much better sounding and more flexible. 
 

Most folks love the Aurrender Conductor app. Like all software, you get used to how it works and it becomes simple and powerful and it is getting better all the time.

Aurender seems to favor the SPDIF/AES with the N10/N20's due to the high precision clocking in these units. With USB the streamer is somewhat at the mercy of the clock in the DAC. Given that AES is clearly the favorite of the folks who built both of these units I think you have to suspend the cost worries and listen to them together if you have the chance.

I plan to ask for an Audition of the N200 with coax to a MSB Discrete which my dealer also carries. He doesn’t have an N20 but I think he said he has an N30. 

Also I sent an email to MSB and asked if the Discrete was agnostic related to input selection. I may call them before go to the dealer. 

👍

Is this a local NJ dealer? MSB is on my list. Not immediately but hopefully not in too distant future. I’d take a ride to hear it if it’s not too far. 

@jfrmusic

If you are considering MSB Discrete, then IMHO you may not need N200. I would listen to Discrete with MSB Renderer vs N200 connected through its Pro USB module. Have fun!

@audphile1 

The dealer is Overture in Delaware (home of tax free shopping). It about 30 minutes from me in Southern NJ

Ah I kind of thought that was it…I’m in north jersey and that’s a hike for me. I’m been there and it’s a good store. Keep us posted. 

@lalitk that’s an interesting point. 

@audphile1

I have not heard MSB Discrete with MSB renderer but one would assume (given MSB immaculate implementation of these modules) that it shouldn’t sound any worse, different maybe but certainly not worse than when compared with Discrete DAC fed by N200 through its Pro USB module.

For example, my Merging DAC sound pretty darn good with its embedded Roon Core + renderer but clearly Roon rendering is not in the same league as N30SA. The Roon option is only $3500 with Merging DAC, so it’s not a fair comparison but it sounds good enough for most end users 😊 I believe you had a similar experience with Bricasti’s network module. 

Ok I had my audition and it was quite an adventure so this may be a little long!

Test 1

I started my audition with the Aurender N200 connected to an Esoteric DAC (not sure which model) then through a Hegel Pre and Amp feeding  the Harbeth 7es-XD Speakers which are the ones I own. The sounds were very good with a nice soundstage and loads of transparency yet I noticed a little lower treble brightness on strings and the soundstage seemed to be overly lit up. They didn't have an Aurender N20 but did have a N30 in another room I asked to hear that.I thought the DAC or Amp may be the issue and not the Aurender.

Test 2

This room did not have my speakers so many variables changed. The N30 was connected to an MSB DAC and I'm not sure which one but is was one of their multi box units. The Amps where some giant floor mono blocks that were about 2' by 3' and 6" high.which were feed by their their companion preamp. The brand began with a V but I had never heard of it. The speakers were large Excelon floor model units which sell for $110K per pair. So quite a different mix. Any way I can tell you and you may think I'm crazy but I preferred the sound in the first test. The treble in this room was more in your face and not as smooth and the bass while more robust didn't have a natural feel to me. Plus the sound stage while large just seemed off and somewhat exaggerated. Even my sales agent thought the same. This is a new speaker line they just brought on. Anyway I guess some like this type of presentation and are willing to pay a lot for it.I thought the Speakers were the issue in this test.

Test 3

Went back to room one. I asked for the MSB Discrete DAC to be used with the Aurender N200. I asked about the Network streaming capability with the MSB to see if that would be an option to eliminate the Aurender. They said the MSB can only be used as a Roon endpoint. I was sure you could also use Mconnect but they were adamant about it. Now the Aurender N200 only supports USB and S/PDIF Coax. So they said they would need to add two inter connecting USB add-on modules to the MSB. I questioned the need for these two modules as the MSB site shows a basic USB module and an advanced Fiber Optic based two unit addition. The techs there said you can only use the two unit device to get USB. So we proceeded with the test. Let me tell you the MSB Discrete utterly smoked the Esoteric. No contest! In every facet the MSB was superior. Bass, Soundstage, Transparency, Imaging with a beautiful treble. No hash. No Grain. Just amazing. Just swapping the MSB in and the Esoteric out completely transformed this system. It shows how source is so important on one side of the audio equation and speakers on the other.

Upon hearing this I asked for a package deal if I got the Aurender N200 and the MSB Discrete with the optional second power supply (which is how I was auditioning it) and the two unit USB upgrade. They gave me a fair deal but I wanted to think about it so I went to lunch. At lunch I decided to call Vince at MSB. And here's where the story takes a turn.

I asked him first about the USB issue. He said yes there is an original USB module and a more advanced fiber based two device unit. He said the Fiber one was better but not significantly. He asked what Aurender I was considering. He said with that N200 model I would need at least the original USB module as USB performed much better than RCA Coax. BTW each of these add-on modules is $990. He said He uses the Aurender N30 with his own MSB units. So I asked about the Networking and he said yes it's a Roon endpoint but you could use Mconnect he but said it was complicated to make it work right and even he found it complicated. Then he said if you want the absolute best performance from the MSB use an AES connection. So I said then that's an advantage to using the Aurender N20 which supports AES. He said definitely plus you the can also connect the MSB clock out to the Aurender N20 clock in via BNC. He said their clock is superior to the one in the Aurender and that would give me another  significant improvement in performance. He said this combination of AES and BNC would net a minimum of a 30% performance increase to be conservative but it was probably much higher. So he strongly recommended the N20 with the AES/BNC if I wanted to get the best from the MSB.

So I went back to the dealer and ordered:

An Aurender N20

MSB Discrete with the second optional power supply

Hopefully will arrive in a week.

Sorry for the long story but I wanted to explain what transpired. I want an endgame system for me. .And this I believe it it. Will maybe there's a still an Amp to be upgraded but that would be it.

Be a happy to field any questions

@lalitk definitely worth trying.

@jfrmusic congratulations!!! That’s one heck of a digital front end! Enjoy it and keep us posted!