Well I think this is part of the problem with double blind and similar listening tests. Listening for a difference is the worst type of critical listening. Further, you know you are being tested so it changes the entire experience.
"audiophiles listen to their equipment"
That quote is misattributed to Alan Parsons, as I understand. Anyway saying there's a problem with wanting good sound is like saying an instrument designer, aiming for beautiful sound, could not possibly be a music lover and is only interested in the sound of the instruments. I.e. the sound is inseparable from the music. For me the beauty of the sound, good microdynamics, and so on, are the "doors" to the meaning of the music.
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We listen to music through our equipment — the two are inseparable. I can't fully appreciate music from just my laptop. I need to hear it played back through my system, seated at the main listening position in my IKEA Poäng armchair, eyes closed, while the massager kneads my back. Isn't that the whole point of chasing ultimate equipment — to achieve the ultimate enjoyment of music listening? I don’t quite understand the cliché some people repeat, saying they can finally enjoy the music more with subpar equipment. |
Music is something that happens in your mind. The stimulus need not be a sound. A written score does not need to be played to be understood as music. A sound designer/editor can look at a waveform and see the music. A profoundly deaf person can feel music. The majority of people on this planet do not need audiophile quality sound to enjoy reproduced music. Even when exposed to audiophile quality sound reproduction the majority of people are not converted. Musicians famously do not require audiophile sound. Only audiophiles need audiophile quality sound, hence they are listening to their systems. And there's nothing wrong with that. |
Listening "criticality " makes me dissect everything and that's NOT fun.... Getting drawn into the music because it just sounds good is more appealing to me. My second system keeps me in check. It sounds damn good , i listen to it 75% of the time. It's compact and simple. Keeps me off the upgrade merry go round. When I think I need "more" I go in the main room and listen to that system for a while. I'm at the point where I just want to consume tons of music and choice of system comes down to mood and how much free time I have. Your system is "good" when you are cautious about making any changes. Basically they both sound so good I'm going to leave things alone for a while
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@brilliantdisplays ...and I agree with you, it can be a race to the top that potentially is irrelevant when one 'hits the wall' of greater than your 'on-board' organic ears. 2 long excursions drove me to take a small D amp and my 'bookshelf' omni's along, the front end being my cell....Missed the sub that usually paired with, but beat zed. Spouse thought it nutz initially but our employees were down with it.... Have Audio Will Travel @kennymacc & @aewarren ...Precisely. @paqua123 *G* Same fate here, much the place/event memories of the time. As for those involved then, moved, dead or could be. Family mostly keeps track of each other if only for the countdown to the bottom of the list... Too many places I'd rather be on approach to.... *S* I'd opt for a Lotus Exige S v. the luxcruiser...😏 ....but a 'warmed up Subu could do well enough if taking the route rarely used beckons hard enough... ...that memory thing... ;) J |
@magon sure it does, it is what transports you to the memories. The memories are there waiting, you system brings you back to them. |
@roadcykler I'm not sure if this is what you are getting at, but I find that "critical" listening can go wrong sometimes, in the sense that the impressions it gives me are sometimes unconnected with listening for pleasure. An example is a system that impresses me while I'm listening for performance, but then leaves me cold when I try to actually enjoy it. I want to stay away from that. |
I've never really understood the "critical listening" angle. That's basically the opposite of simply listening for pleasure. If you're listening critically, you'll hear things that sound good to you, but you'll also hear things that don't which will lead you to find different equipment. If you only hear positive things, your system is perfect for you and you'll never need to "upgrade" and we all know that's a rarity among this crowd. |
@paqua123 The issue I have with your analogy is that the luxury sedan doesn't have anything to do with the memories. But for me, the sound qualities of the system have a musical meaning. A good example is quality of the micro and macro dynamics. I'm mainly focused on classical so my reference (and my memories from youth) is live acoustic music. |
As most of you are im pretty old. I think music accompanied most of through our lives via transistor radio in stores you name it. The way i see it the music of my youth takes me back in time to places and memories of the past. Now just like going to an old neighborhood, it's fine to get there in a Subaru but I'd rather drive a nice luxury sedan or SUV. The ride to the memories makes the memories even sweeter. |
This is a fools chase… you either get inside the music or your hung up on stats and numbers and diagnoses telling you the music is good.Hows your hearing…? thats the only way to determine if your happy with what your have.. its so simple either you like your creation or you dont…or if you can even tell the dam difference anyway |
....and up to the individual to vote with their budget as to what 'mediocre equipment' may be or not....and how such can be 'elevated' and used for it's strengths, sidestepping it's weaknesses.... Sure, that does require a degree or 3 of analytical listening and some 'hack attacks' on items that in my case are beyond warranty anyway.... The 'fun' part is when I've made it work to my satisfaction, current as that may be, subject to the next tweak to a detail.... Even if $ no object (not my option), my choices would likely still make one scratch their head and think me even more of 'the odd man out'. "Boo" *ironic L* If cost was no object, you'd likely see me at AXPONA and think "...it's not as expensive as 'X, Y, or Z, but they're omni's....they can't sound good...." D amps and all....😏 At least it wouldn't require a 2nd on the house to enjoy, major wattage, and be less of a major distraction in the SAF schemes.... Ah, well...born at the right time to the wrong people.....but we all have to run what we've brung.... ;) AXPONA might be a tad less crowded this year.....just my crystal balls swirling stuff....😎 |
I look at it this way: mediocre equipment separates one from the musical event while great equipment brings it to you. The former makes you concentrate on the equipment while the latter frees you from it. It's all a matter of perspective. All it takes is one or two pieces in the chain to put you in either camp, hence the desire for better equipment. The love of music should always be there. All the best, |
My take on this ongoing separation of listening to the equipment or the music it produces...it's absolutely a ridiculous point. Anyone who has been playin' this game for decades knows that they both exist. And they should! If I change a piece of gear I am certainly listing to it analytically. When it becomes acceptable it simply falls into the background. The music is the deal...isn't what this pursuit is about? Regards, barts |
The only possible argument is maybe what s correct in pitch or tone ? some like it more neutral like a dac or speaker that may provide more focused imaging ,vs say a dac that may not be as lock on focus imaging but easy to listen to without having to analyze the music 🎶 it just flows ,this too is why system synergy is so important. |
When evaluating my system for faults or opportunities for improvement, I listen critically, typically to well-culled tunes with ranges of frequencies. When exploring new music I want something that touches me in an emotional way. And if it strikes me in a good way it immediately goes into a playlist for further culling in or out later. And then sometimes a nice glass of bourbon and hitting random play is equally enjoyable (Calgon, take me away). Those are my 3 categories of listening depending on my mood. |
@bigtwin x10 |
I've always been confused by this whole "listening to your equipment" argument. I'm not listening to my speaker, I'm listening to the music coming out of the speaker. And why wouldn't I want that to sound as good as it possibly can? Would I rather listen to someone just learning to play the violin, or Perlman? The idea they are both music so I shouldn't be concerned over the quality, is silly. IMHO |
I’d suggest there’s a spectrum. Those of us who play are more inclined to think of music in terms of its formal elements: melody, harmony, rhythm, etc. Of course we love beautiful sounds but that is not the essence. For us, say, the psychoacoustical experience of a tri-tone interval has little to do with sonics. On the other hand, those who do not play but grew up with a parent or friend who was an audiophile and whose initial exposure and process of falling in love with music (or however you prefer to describe it) was inextricably linked to refined sonics will understandably tend to define music more in terms of sonics. There are those who possess an engineering mindset for whom music happens to be the particular arena in which they choose to utilize their inventiveness. They may tend to regard music more in terms of a challenge to their technical expertise/creativity. Three possible points along a spectrum.
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@magon I am the one not among "many" who, according to mahler126, would disagree with you. I think your comparison with instrument designer/maker is spot on. |