Audiophile demographics?

Here we are again. Remember May 2016 "Do female audiophiles exist?" and 2005 "Audiophiles...Why men? Any women here?" Not a new question. I and several other female audiophiles responded. But here we are years later, kicking the same question about. Yes, we exist. Perhaps not in high numbers but who really knows for sure? Just because we females don’t always identify ourselves as "female" doesn’t mean we don’t exist or exist only in small numbers. Who would ever have guessed by the handles "gg987" or "theo714" that the owners would be female? Perhaps, like myself, an innocent question was asked and an insensitive responder squelched their desire to inquire further on this forum because they were given a rude response. I’m a bit more tenacious and have continued to ask questions. And I’ve received some very insightful, informative and kind help from many. I would think it would be best to go to the source (females) and ask them is "the equipment" important to them or not and why or why not. Then and only then will we know the "real" reasons. A million women a million different answers... I do think "meiatflask" hit a big nail on the head. Women who have kids usually don’t have the time or means to invest in "equipment." I didn’t start buying expensive (expensive to me) equipment until my kids had all moved out of the house. And as far as women not being able to sit still and listen or preferring to talk rather than listen, maybe, maybe not. In my marriage, my husband is the talker. Some days I listen to music in my recliner from morning to evening (putting it on pause when he comes through for some conversation :)

You can blame me for asking the question again, but if the responses are any indication, the demographics haven't changed and female stereotyping is still an issue. Sad, but not surprising as the world gets more polarized every day.

@mewsickbuff,

"I do think "meiatflask" hit a big nail on the head. Women who have kids usually don’t have the time or means to invest in "equipment." I didn’t start buying expensive (expensive to me) equipment until my kids had all moved out of the house."



That’s it, in a nutshell. Biological differences.

Of course social norms are changing, particularly in the western world, and men are now usually more involved in child rearing.

Hence the predominance of the more mature audiophile, as well as the younger ones.

Family life tends does to get in the way of this hobby. Heck, I had to sell my turntable with the arrival of my daughter!
I wasn’t pushed, or forced, it was simply a question of priorities and the right thing to do.

Was is worth it?

Ask Homer Simpson. You’d get a similar answer. Oh the role of the poor harassed male in these difficult times..!

Hang in there everyone.

I believe you-all may have missed THE women issue." Being part of the whole"
Point in case. We play our stereo maybe 3 nights a week I.e. Lp’s or stream.
Now when I go over and pull out a L.P. she’s not the involve even if I ask what she would
like to listen to. She usually nods off or plays un-interested.
NOW when is she a listener? A HA! I will tell you all in our case when we stream music
say Tidal or Qobuz. I hand our Mac Pro to her. I simply say play "SOME TUNES" anything
you like "HONEY". p.s. just celebrated our 20th wedding anniversary if that helps you understand women a little better!!

@artemus_5 Unfortunately, much of the rock from the 80s and 90s that she wants to listen to is not well recorded or mastered so she criticizes the system. The 60s and 70s rock is preferable. Prong, Osborne and Metallica sound more like noise than Allman Bros, Steely Dan and Led Zep. She doesn’t appreciate Yello which sounds spectacular. 78s are more enjoyable to me than Osborne. My high end audio system in my custom listening room can make most music sound good to great but some music is just too much like noise for me. Actually, the 2nd system (better than 95% of audiophiles systems) has 3 10" woofers and are tighter and punchier so that her rock sounds faster. When I pick the pop or classical music (she gets bored with jazz) she just sits and enjoys it. I appreciate her input though as to system changes though. I have 25,000 LPs/7,000 CDs/7,000 78s to choose from.

That's more than a lot of stores

@djone51 Fascinating article, djones. Thanks. This is a complex issue, and for reasons sketched in the article, not always easy for the lover of technology to get fully clear on due to the myopia inherent to any strong attachment, including technophilia.

I tend to think of technology much more broadly -- as ways of accomplishing tasks or experiencing states of mind/body. And technologies can be very simple. Most primitive, perhaps, is a simple technique: "How to open a pickle jar," for example -- is a technology. Next, we might think of simple tools; a hammer is a technology. And of course things get more complex from there.

If we agree that technologies can be as simple as techniques, then the gender "difference" becomes diluted. Even if one supposes women in their "typical" [please note the scare quotes] roles -- cooking, sewing, etc. -- there is deep involvement with technology. My daughter, for example, just came out of one of those wonderful restaurant supply stores raving about the variety of whisks they carried. She’s in love with the technology of the whisk because it will empower a wider range of techniques in her baking, for a wider range of purposes.

The question comes back, perhaps, to a more typical male love of technology that "disburdens" one -- that allows one to press a button and watch the machine deliver the end product. This, perhaps, is one source of the article’s reference to the atavistic love of power which men find in technology. The female whisk-lover wants to be empowered to do something (bake, e.g.) whereas the male device lover wants to make something magically appear -- like a wizard or god. Different ways of being in the world, no?

That said, there are many men on this forum who are more like bakers -- DIY’ers, electrically-versed, etc. They love the technology only fully once they understand it and perhaps engage with it. They make things, get their hands dirty, chat with other hobbyists. Like a sewing circle, no?

So, like most things, there’s a spectrum, and personality is a heterogenous mix of different traits, a collage not a solid color. Frankly, the more perspectives on this hobby, the better. What would be really interesting would be to see more women in charge of audio companies. What would change? What would it bring? 

I would say she looked at the whisk as a tool to perform no matter how it subjectively looked. If only we would approach audio technology in an equally rational way. 

djones Good point. One picks up a whisk, imagines it as an extension of their arm and hand. Problem with audio technology is that it is never really possibly an extension of our own capabilities. It's job is to present things TO us. Possibly another relevant dimension (cf. "ready to hand" vs. "present to hand" in Heidegger).

True, the whisk would apply more to  how men view hammers. Certain ones for certain applications. Using stereotypes diamonds and rubies make women feel more feminine and huge speakers and glowing tubes men more masculine. If only stereo equipment appreciated like jewelry. 

I think true (maybe more serious or committed) audiophiles only care about how their systems sound - the ones who care more about how it looks are looking to show it off (possibly) - ergo all the attached pictures showing their impressive equipment on this and other websites.

Also, I disagree with the appreciation comment of jewelry being better than stereo equipment. They can both be antiques and the appreciation is highly dependent on the individual object. Some jewelry is almost worthless immediately after purchase.

@sokogear Interesting comment about only sound mattering to serious audiophiles. Would you say the same thing about food -- doesn't matter how it looks, only how it tastes? It seems that analogy should carry over. If it doesn't, I'm curious what you think the difference is.

You can blame me for asking the question again, but if the responses are any indication, the demographics haven't changed and female stereotyping is still an issue. Sad, but not surprising as the world gets more polarized every day.

What a steaming pile of malarkey! First YOU divide audiophiles by sex. Then YOU complain about stereotyping??? YOU divide- then you say the world is more polarized! That's rich!  

(Psychologists have a term for this behavior: projection. I prefer steaming pile of bull....)

Why do you care what sex audiophiles are? Since when did that become your responsibility? What are you going to do anyway, run around comparing demographics making sure the 50.8% or whatever it is females in the population are precisely 50.8% of audiophiles? Then what? When you have perfected that, you think you will stop there? No way, Jose! Then you will fret why are there more white ones, we need more brown ones! Why are you all healthy? We need more disabled! Why are there so few unemployed audiophiles??? (No dumber than your female fixation by the way.) On and on down the line dividing people by your always arbitrary made up ideas of how the world should be.  

Can't you see where this is going? The only place it can go? Some Big Brother telling everyone you must be this, you must be that. Give it up. Please.  

Or at least realize the problem isn't audiophiles ITS YOU, and quit giving us normal people who just want to live and let live such sanctimonious little sermons. Trust me when I say, you are not all that. 

hilde45 - I don't think your food analogy holds much weight, unless the taster is blind. How appetizing a food looks can make you think it will taste better, which actually makes it so.

I am by no means a foodie, but I like what I like and am picky, and I can tell you that a thrown together plate of food is not as appetizing as a neat one or a carefully constructed one at a restaurant. I would be the cooking judges at contests take presentation into account. When people judge stereos they are supposed to close their eyes.

Many people talking but few of them know-the soul of a woman was created below.     

@sokogear

There was a local restaurant that served their meals in total darkness. They claimed that the lack of external sensory input actually enhanced the taste of food. While it sounds strange on the surface, is it any different than listening to music in a darkened room?

@sokogear

How appetizing a food looks can make you think it will taste better, which actually makes it so.

This comment gave me something to think about. The discrimination we make between our senses are conceptual labels we use for practical purposes, but the interaction of different senses is a real phenomenon, as you point out! Maybe this is partly evolution -- the ability to survive depends on knowing when food "looks bad to eat."

a thrown together plate of food is not as appetizing as a neat one or a carefully constructed one at a restaurant

I completely agree, not least because I can see -- and anticipate -- the flavors to come better when it’s not a pile of mush. And anticipation is a big component of the later experience.

I suppose that’s where the analogy breaks down. One cannot really anticipate what something will sound like based on how the equipment looks, right? Although, I have to say when i look at some of those big horn speakers -- or the array of drivers on the Tektons -- part of me starts to anticipate *something* sonic.

@tony1954,

The world is not getting more polarized. It's slowly waking up. 

If you thought 2020 was dramatic, I can guarantee you 2021 is going to be a lot more 'fun'.

Especially the way things are going.

Meanwhile you just keep worrying why there aren't more females suffering with audiophilia...

"Why do more men like audio?

Is it stereotyping?" Maybe it's mono typing or quad. Did you consider that?  

If you really wanted to know maybe it would be more appropriate to ask the females in your life. Rather than asking a bunch of predominantly male audiophiles. 

Was it genuine interest or did virtue signalling get the better of you? Was it worth it?

Nevermind, it will pass. 

@cd318
I asked an innocent question and for some reason people like you want to make it into a hill you will die on. 
Are there more male audiophiles than female audiophiles? Yes.
Do people stereotype? Yes.
Next time I will try to ask a question that doesn't tax your intellect.
How about "Do your prefer bananas or spades?" 

@tony1954 - of course food tastes better when visual senses are not in use. The other senses become more keen. Or lack of capabilities lead people (or animals) to adapt in other ways. Ever see a 3 legged dog? Amazing how they function.

Much is spent at expensive restaurants on the design and decoration - some designed so you can sit and relax and some with bright colors to get you in an out quickly. The fast food places spend a lot on decorating also believe it or not, to withstand the heavy traffic.

MC is just a little fired up today, give him a break. Although, I would recommend he just skip over the subject. Let's keep the politics/Trump arguments out of this conversation and really completely off the Gon. I see enough of that crap on TV.

I wouldn't have used the word polarizing Tony. You're doing market analysis. The demographics exist.

Unlike you, I don't mind people disagreeing with me.

Yes you do. You are fit to burst at being caught out with your divisive and pathetic attempt at virtue signaling.  

@tony1954,

After reading some of the replies, perhaps the title of your thread should be Audiophile Personality Disorders as some are certainly evident here. Curiously, men are far more prone to personality disorders as well.

I was talking to a teen aged nephew yesterday who has discovered "explosives", which reminded me of my child hood. Many boys who grew up in the country, probably some in the city, will at some point discover "blowing things up".  It is not a fascination with destruction but a curiosity surrounding "what if". My wife, sister, and daughter all confirmed that the concept of going somewhere, and "blowing something up" simply never occurred to them.  Is that nature or nurture?  Odds are a little of both, and odds are that is also true to audiophiles.

I don't have a lot more to add other than some people sound like they need a hug, and some perspective.  Your responses to this thread are not emotionally healthy.

@sokogear -- when I close my eyes, the music sounds more intense for sure, and the food does as well. Is there something to be gained, experientially, in having a combinatory experience with, say both sight+taste? Or to put it in more organic terms (from a male hetero point of view) it's how she looks-and-smells that combine to make her my lovely one.

I think this is a dividing point for some when it comes to the aesthetics of many things -- namely, that there's either a combinatory effect in the initial experience which includes more than one sense OR there's an overall experience that is overall better with both.

"You are fit to burst at being caught out with your divisive and pathetic attempt at virtue signaling."

Was this an attempt at philosophy, or at poetry?

A hobby like hifi can be a good way to show off technical knowledge. 
Peacock strutting definitely is a guy thing.

Women are smarter and more practical.  At least the good ones are, and if they love you they let you indulge in your hobby!  Just got my new B&W 802D3’s...waiting for new cables and amp 😊

@dave_b - are you trolling for a date? Why do you say something so general demographically? Maybe that's your experience or in your family, or whatever. Then you compound the comment by saying the "better" ones are smarter! As they say say on ESPN, "Come on man"! The women that are book smarter or have more common sense aren't better women. There are lots of other attributes to consider, and it is very subjective.

Women are less inclined to go into STEM - that doesn't make them dumber or men smarter, and some women live to shop for frivolous things (like their equivalences of stereo equipment) and others are very careful with what they spend and in making decisions in general.

@tk21 - you have never seen a woman strut? What planet are you on?

There are more smart women, based on percentage over 100 IQ than men. On the other hand, there are far more very smart men based on IQ.  Men are far more likely to suffer from personality disorders.  Men are more gullible.  Men are more likely to overestimate their abilities. The gullible nature and the tendency to overestimate abilities often go hand in hand.  Women tend to be more conformist and work to fit in. Men tend to want to stand out. 


These are all verifiable from scientific evidence.  These traits are all statistical, and can only be used to describe groups as a whole, not individuals.


Draw your own conclusions on how these relate to audiophiles.

This can be a really divisive subject. Political too.

I remember when I used to play competitive chess, someone would ask why aren't there more women GMs and why isn't there a woman world champion? etc.

Some still do.

It seems to bother a few journalists that the top 100, maybe even top 1000 chess geeks are mostly comprised of men. It all got so thorny that FIDE had to ensure there are now 2 different world championships, the women's world championship, and the open world championship.

Once again, you might want to ask, why can't we be different? Why is there this need for some to want to homogenise clear biological differences?

Thankfully this lunacy doesn't yet extend to combat sports or track and field.

I've nothing against encouraging more women to participate in this mainly male hobby. Their company would surely be welcomed, especially to ease the pressure cooker intensity at some of these testosterone fuelled audio shows.

However in my experience hardly any of them have shown much interest. To push further usually just means digging a bigger hole.

Even the ones who do go, often reluctant wives and girlfriends, seem to act as if they wished they were somewhere else.

How strange? It's almost as if they were somehow different, and had different interests.

I am shocked that they separate women into separate chess tournaments @cd318.  

So @audio2design, are you saying the average IQ of a man is higher, but the median is higher for a woman? Interesting.... Thanks for the facts, although some of them would seem hard to measure....gullibility, overestimate their ability...?Be careful with some statistics and how surveys are worded. Many times they are designed with the end result in mind to prove some thesis. 

Of course there are biological differences that cause physical, mental and emotional capabilities to vary. Men are from Mars and Women are from Venus, right? Never read the book...but I can guess what is says.

Why does it bother journalists that women don't have as many highly rated chess players? Maybe they don't like it as much and don't play.

I don't think my wife has ever stepped foot in a stereo store. But, I am sure some women like them. I can't recall a stereo saleswoman though.

Average IQ is very similar, I think it may be a touch higher for volume. There are far fewer women at the ends of the curve. So while there are fewer women at the upper peaks of intelligence, there are also few women at the very bottom end as well. Less genetic variance.

I don't think overestimating ability would be that hard to measure. Gullibility either.

You quoted it as fact. How was it studied or measured, (gullibility and overestimating one’s ability) to lead to those conclusions? Sounds anecdotal to me.

https://www.wired.com/2016/03/mathematicians-discovered-prime-conspiracy/ With the same IQ you can be sceptic or gullible in some activities or aspect of life, in particular or in general....Personality traits or personal history is not linked to measured intelligence.... Intelligence or stupidity is not linked to a hobby, even to the audiophile hobby, and being an engineer is not a warrenty against gullibility in audio at all because audio is a complex phenomenon linked to many different sciences and dimensions that may exceed the limit of expertise of a particular engineer... This is very simple evidence....

IQ means little anyway.....And i dont think that men and women can be distinguished by different location on a Bell curve of IQ distribution....

Universe dont comply to statistical laws anyway even the thermodynamical one because universe is not only allegedly "dead" matter like we know it.....Prime numbers distribution and galaxies ignore them at the end...Life ultimately dont obey statistic and cannot be reduced to statistic....

For example we use statistic to study prime numbers distribution because we are ignorant of the ultimate reason behind their distribution....Recent work in this field explode the powerful statistical method in his capacity to explain their distribution....It seems that prime numbers had biases like life had bias..... All that are in the sky then are not only rain or light....
😊

Funny thing is, most of life obeys statistical distributions very well, from IQ, to infectious disease transmission, to tardiness. Prime numbers are a mathematical construct, not a physical system. At the most discrete levels, physics becomes statistics, not equations.

A crowd conform to statistics, individuals not so...

Numbers are not only a human construct but reflect something that is not a cultural human construct...an objective discovery is not an invention ...

At his beginning and at his end matter dont conform to statistics no more...Matter is not only a crowd but also a qualitative geometry....

Funny thing is statistic apply to crowds, and to nothing else.....

If you think that ribosomic machines are the results of chance yes indeed life is only the results of statistic....Then indeed....Your life is simple but it seems we dont live in the same universe....

:)

A unitary measurement does not a statistic make ...

And yes, quantum mechanics shows that matter really does conform to statistical probabilities.


Oh here we go. Start out with differences in men and women, and let's find a way to insert what is effectively religion into the discussion.

My wife isn’t an "audiophile", but I trust her ears to help me make component purchasing decisions. She listens to 4 or 5 of her favorite songs every time I've brought a new component home to audition. She provides me feedback on her thoughts using non-audiophile terms and I always take her advice. 

And yes, quantum mechanics shows that matter really does conform to statistical probabilities.

What do you do with the reduction of the waves probabilities? is it "matter" that operate it?

Complex design is not synonymus with religion my dear....

But it is more simple to drown the fish this way is not it?

Ok i will not derail the thread no more....





:)

it has been my long-term observation, that women who are really into music, seem to have some kind of cognitive compensator that fills in the missing bits/corrects the imbalances when listening to most consumer-grade gear, hence they lack the driving need for actual high-end equipment. 

I do the same thing with Beatle's music :-)

@mahgister,

"IQ means little anyway....."


Are you sure about that? Have you tried hanging out with those above 120 and below 80?

I find through my interactions with some people that I’m constantly learning, and that with some others I’m caretaking.

Is it also just a statistical anomaly that people with higher IQs tend to be more successful in their chosen endeavours?

Intelligence matters, doesn’t it?
Who wants to deny that?

IQ tests are not the complete picture, no one would say that, but after over a century of refinement, they’re probably a good an indicator of it as we have right now.

Again, let’s ask why we do feel this need to homogenise differences?

I am not you, you are not me, but we can try, if we want, to cross that distance through communication, mutual respect and honesty.

Can’t we?

IQ measures the ability to recognize patterns. That helps with solving problems.

That can certainly contribute to one’s career success, but it is only component, and may be the smallest part.

Some think of this as book smart. But that’s not right. Some bookworms may not have a high IQ,but very high determination, which is another contributor to success. Psychologists call it grit, and it may be the biggest contributor.
Also, EQ, emotional intelligence is a significant part of success as well. That measures maturity and how to navigate situations socially, kind of like “how to win friends and influence people”.

Get someone with high scores in all 3 and I would bet they will achieve their goals.it could be fame, fortune, or whatever their definition of happiness is.

Are you sure about that? Have you tried hanging out with those above 120 and below 80?

I said means "little" not means nothing....

No need for IQ test at all to feel and know these large differences....i advised students about reading in all fields for 35 years.... :)

But true intelligence in life is not IQ related....It is consciousness related....

What is IQ ? Pattern solving, thats almost all it is.... Then do you think the A.I. that just solved the protein folding problem is intelligent? Wolfram think that but perhaps his IQ is not all there is about intelligence...And no need to test to see that his score exceed 140.... :)


Beware, any machine can now discuss with us, hiding his indefinite memory to us, without being recognized on the spot....🐵


True intelligence for me is linked to the capacity to feel and perceive the living interconnectedness of all that exist.... Spiritual and moral experiences has nothing to do with IQ....

We live on 2 plane simultaneously, machine dont.....Consciousness for me is the working relation between 2 simultaneously living planes of experience...Think about your dreams for example or about your innate moral imagination....

«For sure the one who said "I" is another one» -Mark Twain reading Rimbaud

« 2 planes of existence? Yes, the time perceived and the imperceptible one...»- Myself reading Dostoievsky "the dream of a ridiculous man" one of the cleverest book ever written....

« Your brain know milliseconds in advance what your conscious I will do next»- Benjamin Libet neurologist after his well known experiment...

My citation of Libet is a riddle....😊

...I see I haven't missed much while 'away'....*G*

Next topic:  The color of the sky; is it 'blue' enough for you?
🤷‍♂️🤦‍♂️

This is not what his experiments showed or at least a distorted interpretation.  More accurate would be there is brain activity before we are able to communicate an intention. If that is a "discovery", I hate to see the rest of the work.

« Your brain know milliseconds in advance what your conscious I will do next»- Benjamin Libet neurologist after his well known experiment...

https://wmpeople.wm.edu/asset/index/cvance/libet

More accurate would be there is brain activity before we are able to communicate an intention.

Your formulation is more accurately formulated indeed.... :)

Libet himself would say it your way....

Sometimes it is difficult to resume a controversy in 6 words.... But most people after his experiment interpret it like a proof of the non existence of free will....Not Libet himself for sure....I wrote the distorted intrerpretation to illustrate my riddle about consciousness and the general opinion about Libet at the time....

:)

But my riddle takes the sea anyway.....



« Dont you know that you are a robot? For sure but i am also the programmer... »-Groucho Marx

@gg987@gg987

I think women have traditionally not been audiophiles because they had no one to show them the way and excite them about it

.Interesting! I know three women audiophiles, one of whom is my mother in law.
She developed an interest -- similarly to what you wrote -- years ago when I was auditioning various pairs of speakers; I was then looking for an additional pair of speakers and we began auditioning together; to make a long story short, I explained as much as I could about electronics, compatibility and circuits, and sound reproduction. We embarked on a speakers evaluation marathon,  full time, even down to positioning speakers, amplification characteristics, and speakers evaluation sheets!

OTOH, her daughter (i.e. my wife) loves music but isn’t even interested in firing up the system, let alone audiophilia of any sort...