Audio Science Review = "The better the measurement, the better the sound" philosophy

Absolutely. That’s what boring dacs, amps and speakers are for. Being not colored they can play all kind of music as it is supposed to sound.

Here is an ASR member's preferred music and equipment when responding to me two weeks ago (I saved it because I don't think I like any of his music choices except reggae).  

Via PC and APO EQ - Topping DX 3 Pro+ => Yamaha A-S 301 => Wharfedale 12.2 + REL 1003 (REW EQ) On me head: AKG K702, AKG K371, Fostex T20 RP, Sennheiser HD 650

Genres: hip-hop, reggae, ska, punk, alternative rock, trash metal, industrial, 90s techno, progressive techno, dnb, narco corridos, cumbia 

Are these music genres adequate to evaluate audio equipment?   I mentioned that jazz could be more appropriate (I didn't mention classical music or classic rock and pop).  I was scolded for mentioning it.

Not what I meant at all.What I meant was that some people would have bought that amp based on the ASR review without listening to it  [ASR didn't either] and if they had listened some of them probably would have made a different choice.So in that context yes they are naive objectivists for thinking that good measurements will automatically correlate with what sounds good to them.

 

Ok, so I am really trying to keep up here. Apparently, an amplifier measured well on the test-bench and was well-reviewed by one reviewer while a second reviewer reported that although the amp “measured very well,” it just wasn’t his cup of tea.

Based on that information, you concluded that the people who still own and use the well-measuring amp are obviously “naive objectivists” with poor hearing, while those who have moved on did so because the subjective review of the experienced second reviewer is “invaluable” and should be "taken into consideration by any buyer" of this amp.

Simply brilliant!

ASR reviewed the Benchmark AHB2 power amp and gave it a huge recommendation because it was the best measuring amp they had tested.

Chris Bryant in Hi Fi Critic also reviewed and measured it and although it measured very well gave it a very low rating for sound quality.He said-"For me,when variations in timing patterns or rhythmic drumming are encountered,the musical flow is compromised." and "but it failed to impress in terms of musical involvement,attaining an overall score of just 45 points’.

A lot people[naive objectivists]I guess] bought those amps based on the ASR review and if you follow posts about that amplifier in this forum and others you will see a lot of people saying they bought it but sold it later because it was extremely boring sounding.Some others say they like it but my take on that is they are probably listeners who do not hear timing and rhythm patterns very well so have not, nor may not ever ,become aware of what is not right about it.Even many who have moved on were probably not fully aware of the exact nature of what is wrong but knew something was not right.

This is where subjective reviews by experienced reviewers like Chris Bryant become invaluable and should be taken into consideration by any buyer.

I don’t now why there should be such an insistence put on tests, charts and measurements when expressing an opinion about audio equipment on Audiogon. This website is comprised mainly of hobbyist who can listen seriously and verbally communicate what they hear, as a means of discourse with others who are doing the same. Sure, there are likely plenty of members who understand the science behind what ASR is doing (but may still disagree with their conclusions). But there are members who are more like myself. Those who have studied harmony, counterpoint, orchestration, arranging, conducting and music history to a certain degree. Who grew up playing an instrument and joined a band in their adolescence. Who attend concerts and recitals whenever possible. These types of personal life experiences are why I comprehend a listening review more than the triangulating of frequencies and mathematical charts. I’ve built sound waves and used charts to incorporate percussion rate, fall rate, attack rate, etc.. before interfacing them with an electronic polyphonic keyboard, so I know a little but my listening preferences are primarily based on what I hear, or what someone else describes hearing.

My father used to build cars before he got a job building aircraft engines. He can explain every part in a car and evaluate whether or not there’s a better or more economical way of engineering it. Today, people like him are usually involved in research. But despite his knowledge, he has terrible taste in cars and I don’t need to know what he knows to choose a better car than he would. Also, he’s always been a pretty bad driver. This of course may not be the best analogy but I’ve personally developed a way of evaluating based on listening reviews relevant to both equipment and recordings. And regardless of what I find in online publications, the best way for me to audition audio equipment is to actually hear it. I’d make the radical assumption that most people who are involved in this hobby can make sound purchasing decisions based on listening evaluations.

@esarhaddon

Is it "cancel culture" that I was thrown off ASR for asking whether a tested piece of equipment was listened to and whether it sounded good?

@jtgofish "They boogie. Or perhaps all the people who own and love them are suffering from some sort of mass delusion?"

 Yeah, same point I've made about Klipsch Heresy IV... they dance.  They're addictive.  I'm a long-time "linear sound" kind of guy, but I like 'em, as do obviously many others... and I've gotten grief from oh-so-wise audiophiles for liking 'em (particularly on ASR)...!  So, your question applies...

esarhaddon,Has it occurred to you that some people are more sensitive to timing and rhythm that others?That we do not all hear the same?Some people have very poor sense of rhythm.They are bad dancers.They are not the people you would want to play in the rhythm section in your band.Or be audio reviewers.Or perhaps ridicule others for whom such things are heard and are important.

I own many speakers but will always keep a pair of Gale 401 speakers because they excel at rhythm and timing.If you search the web for opinions and reviews of these classic speakers that facet of their sound is very frequently mentioned.They boogie.Or perhaps all the people who own and love them are suffering from some sort of mass delusion?

 

 

@esarhaddon I have not seen this extensive a critique of ASR and I’ve been an Audiogon member for more than a decade. I am relating my experience and note others including the @thyname’s theft of his personal information by an ASR member with numerous identities. What you refer to as nonsense and cancel culture is exactly what I am attempting to reverse. You are free to disagree but somehow I find your attitude opposite to mine. I DO NOT want anyone to put words in my mouth (that we can agree on) which is exactly what about two dozen ASR members did to my posts, render them opposite to what I intended and clearly stated.

@thyname 

This is my last post on this thread. I learned a few days ago from my friend, screenshots of every single post of mine in this thread were sent to ASR. Along with a printout of my LinkedIn page, real persona, photo, current employment, work history, the whole nine yards of my private info. And I know who sent it. It did not surprise me.

 

 

That's 5 surprising sentences in a row.

Each one more disturbing than the one before it.

At the very least people should lock down their own personal details as far as they can.

No one should have any right to share someone's else's employment and work history online without consent.

Here in the UK we have GDPR legislation to stop things like that, not that it stops tech giants like Google and Facebook from collating as much personal data as they can.

However, even they are not supposed to share it with others.

If you're certain that this data breach has happened, at the very least you should contact ASR and ask for its immediate removal.

@fleschler I don't know anyting about ASR but the numbers of people on the chat that have no clue about the making of high end audio is astounding. Just like your comment about PRAT. Can you mix metaphores any more? I love PS Ausio's response to that question. That is like comparing Horse power to tire pressure.
https://www.psaudio.com/askpaulvideo/what-is-prat/

I don't mind a helthy back and forth on a topic but this is nonsense for the most part and just more Cancel Culture nonsense form people that I would like to respect but as I told the moderators, it is getting hard to respect many of the people here anymore. Most of the time  I spend trying to bring some ballance to the conversation and I only get called out and told that I don't even know my own words. Like on this very post were one person told me that I actually meant to say something different than what I said. I think I know  what I meant to say.

@mikepowellaudio
 As far as your four questions about how precieved things like Soundstage are measured? I guess you don't like or have any room in your life for Diraclive! Which by the way seems to do a pretty dang good job at not only measuring room accoustics, but also Width, Depth, Soundstage and so much more. THis is not saying that I agreed or dissagree with ASR. I wouldn't know one of their people if he fell from the 4th story in front of me. I just think that many of the comments here are as assignine as what ASR is said to quote. The lack of technical knowlege of these people astounds me.

"Miscreants"

 

Ouch

doxxing somebody over their opinions about stereo equipment is one of the saddest things i've ever heard. unreal

There are 246 posts on my forum and I would say that 95% share similar attitudes towards ASR and additional criteria to evaluate audio equipment.  I have also become more mindful in my posts from 5 or 15 years ago.  I did make one negative comment at the beginning of this forum but a Audiogon overseer (above the moderator) thought it didn't have to be deleted.  I read Audiogon forums more than several others on a weekly basis.  I also lend my personal and friends personal experiences using equipment and tweaks.  

There are also audio reviewers who won’t take comments on their Youtube and personal audio sites for the same reason: insane, vitriolic attacks, most likely by the same members here if not of those of the same mindset. One reviewer even stopped reviewing for some time due to the animosity he received, only to come back, not accepting any form of contact.

There are some truly sick people out there and some would like to harm you, so be careful who you share personal information with.

All the best,
Nonoise

@thyname Yes, I am wrong, Stereophile does show measurements. I probably looked at them but haven’t in a while, now I just read the reviews. I do believe there to be value in measurements however, I’d be surprised if someone were to evaluate sonic characteristics based on measurements alone. The reviews themselves are based on listening, as with other publications.
 

I’m sorry you were targeted by an Audiogon member. That is reprehensible. As the Audiogon forum has grown in membership, there’s been an increase in bitter divisiveness among its posters. The Gramophone magazine forum was eradicated because of vitriolic attacks. I hope Audiogon doesn’t share the same fate. 

It might be of benefit to A’gon members if you really know who it is to report it to Admin to get that person a permanent ban and to the members here so they can shun and avoid them.

He is banned from here. About 16 times total 😂. I knew he knew my real name 12 usernames ago, he called me out then. When he was “AtDavid”.

Name he used in communications to ASR, and Facebook groups (he is in all FB audio groups) is Cin Dyment. Which I suspect it is also…. you guessed it: fake.

Below is a list of the usernames he had used here (that I know of, possibly more). Funny one of them is “cindyment” 😂. Or maybe not so funny 

 

—————

theaudiomaniac 

 

theaudioamp

 

deludedaudiophile

 

thynamesinnervoice

 

cindyment

 

snratio

 

yesiamjohn

 

sugabooger

 

dletch2

 

audio2design

 

dannad

 

roberttdid 

 

roberttcan 

 

heaudio123

 

audiozenology

 

atdavid

That is one sick, twisted individual who went and did that. Used to be that kind of crap was done in political circles but audio circles? Must be of the same mindset cohabitating both worlds. Again, sick and twisted individual. It’s a shame that some demented bozo just can’t tolerate a differing point of view.

It might be of benefit to A’gon members if you really know who it is to report it to Admin to get that person a permanent ban and to the members here so they can shun and avoid them.

All the best,
Nonoise

 

This is my last post on this thread. I learned a few days ago from my friend, screenshots of every single post of mine in this thread were sent to ASR. Along with a printout of my LinkedIn page, real persona, photo, current employment, work history, the whole nine yards of my private info. And I know who sent it. It did not surprise me. So be careful out there, so many deranged people out there this can get personal, real life struggle, not just a hobby discussion, or heated argument

You might believe that but you are most likely being manipulated.

Not sure how this statement fits with what I said. Relevance? I was talking about one of the behavioral/ cognitive tendencies we humans have, confirmation bias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

If you are immune to that, or any cognitive dissonance, then…. what can I say, kudos to you.

As for being manipulated by the internet, social media, and the big tech, well, again, kudos to you for being immune to that.

@thyname

Most people only read stuff that aligns with what they believe in, and ignore reading everything else.

 

You might believe that but you are most likely being manipulated.

There are many unscrupulous people on the internet who will try to do that to you.

I tend to use Firefox browser and Duckduckgo search with an indispensable adblocker of course.

When I look at the amount of cookies and trackers that are still following me I remind myself to use the incognito tab more often

 

As for the determined evils of Google, don’t get me started.

--------

8 Reasons Why Google is Evil

https://thebosh.com/10-reasons-why-google-is-evil/

 

Anyone, are there examples where a cable maker, amp maker, etc.. has posted on the internet or anywhere else, all of the testing that was involved while designing their equipment?

Yes. Plenty of them, obviously not all. I am starting to think your web browser only “points” you to a certain website. For some reason. Or your Google machine is broken / defective 😂. Which is pretty normal. Most people only read stuff that aligns with what they believe in, and ignore reading everything else.

Specifications and reviews from What HIFI, Stereophile, etc.. are given but the reviews are primarily done by listening.

Hmmmmm…. Every single Stereophile review has a very detailed section on measurements only. From J. Atkinson. Again, see above, the point I previously made

Anyone, are there examples where a cable maker, amp maker, etc.. has posted on the internet or anywhere else, all of the testing that was involved while designing their equipment? If that is the case, then I can see where ASR could compare those results with their own testing and essentially refute the information provided by the manufacturer. In general, I have not seen the testing results involved in building equipment while reading reviews. I've seen specifications and listening reviews/comparisons on 6 Moons, What HIFI and Stereophile but nothing more.

@esarhaddon I thought we were talking about the measurements recorded by ASR.  No, those test results are done on that website because they are not available in the public domain. That's the whole premise for the website.  Specifications and reviews from What HIFI, Stereophile, etc.. are given but the reviews are primarily done by listening. And by the way, your old friend Joe is the one who did the Stereophile review.

@goofyfoot
lets look at your comment in detail. “How would a purchaser know…”
That is really simple, there is this thing called the World Wide Web. I don’t want to sound like I am trolling you, but You asked the question. There is tons of information available on the web for anyone who cares how he spends $100k. For some that might not be a problem and that person is likely going to listen to his pal Joe tell him how he should spend his money. Now that isn’t always a bad thing. If you have shared experiences with a particular person and know what they like and you have similar likes that is good information, but not all have this type of familiarity. O the other hand EVERY manufacturer puts out some sort of fact list on what their equipment does, then after that you start your research.

I know that there is a big push on buying a car on your cell phone never having driven it, but how does that work when you finally get to drive that piece of junk that the previous owner put cork in the transmission to quiet it?

Then I go to a store to TRY to get hands on idea of how a particular system works but that is getting to be impossible as you don’t know what types of accessories are included. How long they have been burnt in together. What kind of JUNK the sales person is expecting you to listen to. I recently went shopping at one of the better and OLDEST stores in Denver and the sales person had NO WEAY of playing the sample disks I took in with me. He couldn’t even pull up the groups or selections on any of his streaming sources. He then asked me what I was using in my current system which I told him my background in designing speakers for over 40 years and that I had some GREAT, full sized towers. So what did he do? He connected some 4” B&Ws. I have nothing against B&Ws but they sounded like 4” bookshelf speakers PERIOD. He by the way lost that sale.  Another shop was able to play my disks but on an Xbox. For Crying out loud. They called themselves a HIGH end Audiophile store. This store I called ahead of time to arrange an APPOINTEMNT and explained EXACTLY what I wanted and expected. They said this sales person is their go to guy for Anthem. He sat me down to listen to some Junk SMALL towers connected and when it couldn’t produce one note below about 80 hz he proclaimed that he had recently taken off the Subs and never ran Diraclive again. Why should I take hours out of my day, drive across multiple counties, and even expect to listen to the JUNK that modern sales people, and I use that term VERY loosely, set up for me to listen to. There are virtually NO PROFESSIONALS anymore.

Now your next comment, “There may be some designers who volunteer that information to the public domain but most do not for a variety of reasons, like not wanting their work to be pirated. “
As stated before there are a multitude of places you can find information. Places like the Audiogon Forums and many more. And concerning piracy, well yes there are some trade secrets but some people actually have a screwdriver and friends who have used their screwdriver and taken the lid off their BLACK BOX to see what is on the inside. Also much of the time all you have to do is look a the products sold like say the idiots at BOSE who have Never had an original idea EVER. Everything they have made is either publically available designs that they have at Best made slight mods too, or hopefully improvements to, and of course the designs that they have outright pirated from others designers. Some examples are the huge variety of slanted and angled speakers that they did not originate but only went off the deep end trying to find something that might work. The Noise canceling headphones which came after MANY years of Aeronautical experimentation on noise canceling tech they created for the Airline industry. And then the Bose boom box with the folded horn design what I believe either JBL or Altec Lansing created the first successful folded horns.

Finally your comment, “Designers have to use testing and measurements to build their products but scientific data isn't what they're selling.” To some extent yo are correct. The final test comes down to personal taste and hearing a product. But as mentioned above how do you go about that? Also some of the best companies use their engineering designs as a MOJOR selling point. I don’t have to go more than about 15 miles from home to visit ‘PS Audio’ of Boulder, CO where they will WOW any learned or beginner with their advanced tech and design, should you desire. They will go into details that most people never knew existed or cared to know about.
 

 So the bottom line is do you care how your money is spent, do you even know what music is? You might not like my Jazz and I might not like head banger tracks. It’s an OPINION. Are you willing to even investigate what you want? How well do your friends opinions and tastes inter into your decisions on products you purchase?

That is because ASR is an equal opportunity employer and employs deaf reviewers.

They are planning to expand to objective reviews of cars which will allow them to employ blind test drivers.That way people can be sure that all cars have been reviewed under double blind test standards and labels or looks cannot create bias.It will include a witches hat course to test handling and traffic lights to test stopping.

Still don't understand how ASR can claim to be an audio equipment reviewer without actually listening to the audio product being reviewed. 

@esarhaddon How would a purchaser know the amount of measurement and testing that went into an audio component? There may be some designers who volunteer that information to the public domain but most do not for a variety of reasons, like not wanting their work to be pirated. And those customers who want to evaluate an amp or a DAC, etc... base their decisions on the sound and the visual aesthetics. Designers have to use testing and measurements to build their products but scientific data isn't what they're selling.

In a recent discussion there was a comment about the Coincidence 300B Frankenstein MkII. I dug around and found this study that was VERY detailed and yet does it cover every aspect that can be calculated, NEVER!

COINCIDENT FRANKENSTEIN 300B SET AMPLIFIER (high-endaudio.com)
But one thing I wanted to extract was about one particular capacitor. It was a .47 uf Teflon Foil film cap. Now do they measure the same? for most aspects they are identical, but most people know that different manufacturers make their products slightly different and the items that we measure are not even part of the consideration. Like what is the gap on the layers of films? What is the length of the film? There are so many factors that make one just slightly different to another. I can’t tell you haw many times I have played with different caps in my speaker crossovers achieving different results and sometimes a lesser expensive one does something more desirable. On the opposite end, often choosing an elite name like say, Morel over a Solen, well not all Morels are created equal. For a fact there are dozens of different grades of Morel caps of the exact same value, and one might fit the bill very well and another totally creates a trashy sound. It depends on the purpose, the design, the expected outcome... and yes often just plain outright COST effectiveness. Also you need to ascertain how a particular component compliments another. Sometimes one more expensive device might have a slight advantage due to something as simple as the reluctance of the binding post, or a .001 uf difference in capacitance, or the type of architecture of the device. We all know it isn't the most advantageous thing to do by putting Digital components with Valve components. You can't just say because of Ohms or watts or $k something is going to be the best choice and something else I seldom see discussed beyond speaker wires is, How long was a combination of components burned in together before it was given its final sanctification. And don't leave out room treatments.

@ticat  FACT!

Always follow the Money... right into Amir's pocket.

Thank you Sgreg1, that is one of the biggest reasons I don't even like looking at some of the posts here. This has turned into more of a Trolling site that one for help and education. I find it ironic that people will purchase gear for $100s of thou and think that the great stuff they like bragging about never had any science or engineering behind it. None of that gear was made without carefull adherence to the science, calculations, comparitive measurments, and so much more before the FINAL ear ever heard a single note. Often we can't come up with a particular reasoning as to why something worked the way it did. At least on a moments notice, but that is what the GOTCHA crowd depends on.

"Science" is published in peer reviewed journals. The guy at ASR is asking for money in every review and states upfront that he is a dealer and you can assume as much bias as you like. He can't even properly listen to components because he states proudly he doesn't like room treatments. It is worse than a joke because he has duped people into something like a cult of measurements.

@gosta "A system put toghether from ASR favourites would be very very good. I got one." 

I believe you.

measuring a power cable that’s not plugged into anything and then claiming it has no impact, redlining amps and transducers way past manufacturer recommended spec and pointing out that they distort under these conditions, "listening" at active war zone levels in near field or on headphones, evaluating stereo imaging in mono, claiming nobody else with an AP analyzer is using theirs correctly, and so on. just another day in the life of the internet’s premier audio expert 😂

Demagogues tell people what they want to hear. I have a $ 4,000.00 amplifier and ASR tells me that it measures better than one of the hyped up $24,000.00 amplifiers. I like hearing that and automatically equate measures better to sounds better. This opinion cannot be subjective because it is proven by science and so I formulate all of these opinions about audio equipment without hearing any of them. So if the purpose behind buying audio equipment is to test them for frequency response, etc… without ever listening to them, then you have the quantitative evidence that you need for comparing measurements and that’s about it. 
So when I made that statement to my friend, he quickly countered with; ‘if you did a double blind listening comparison between your DAC and one of ASR’ cheaper recommended DAC’s, you wouldn’t be able to tell a difference.’ And my response was, ‘see you’ve already determined the results of a double blinded comparison without doing one.’

However, that's a good question. 

Whether we like it or not, it's impossible to hear everything that's out there, and so we have to turn to third party opinions.

But exactly whose should we trust?

You are right about that. I fully understand you. This is why ASR wins. Right or wrong, it does no matter. It’s a fact. And they realized that, and they win. They make it a business. Lots of crap in the Internet, and people don’t know what you believe. The key is to get as much exposure as possible: own experience, audio shows, dealers, shops, friends, and internet people you know align with your tastes. If these are not possible for some reason, yes, your turn to …., whatever 

 

@jtgofish 

But like any idealistic concept the enforcement can become toxic and counter-productive. Just like communism and religion.

 

Sadly that's all too often the case.

However, if anyone can resist the temptations of chasing wealth and fame, it's Amir.

He comes across as a man of principles.

Seemingly a rare thing nowadays.

 

@henry99 

Are you listing to your music or just buying what your told?

 

No doubt the Salon 2s are good speakers. It would even seem as if Revel themselves are unable to improve upon them.

However, that's a good question. 

Whether we like it or not, it's impossible to hear everything that's out there, and so we have to turn to third party opinions.

But exactly whose should we trust?

Personally I'd put forums like this ahead of any paid opinion. Old habits die hard but years of disappointment also have an effect.

Eventually.

 

@gosta 

ASR likes Storm and Salon 2 :-)

 

Amir has these speakers, so everyone gets them!

Too many times Amir will test a piece of equipment that someone loved and they wind up selling it like sheep.

Just to buy what he recommends.

Are you listing to your music or just buying what your told?

 

 

@laoman

I use a dedicated mediaserver with Roon => Storm 16-channel processor =>

Storm 4 x 900 watt (8 ohm) Class d => Revel Ultima Salon 2 surround system + Velo 15DD+.

Dirac + Storm + Roon DSP.

ASR likes Storm and Salon 2 :-)

@gosta 

As long as you are happy with your system,  it doesn't matter how you got to where you are at.  The whole point is to enjoy the music.

Important of course - but in my world not the job of the dac.

You don't believe that DACs impact timing?

@jtgofish 

"image depth and musical involvement and rhythm and timing"

Important of course - but in my world not the job of the dac.

Maybe what you call decent is the correct sound? 

@gosta, so what is "very good"? What do you have?

 

You might get decent sound using their recommended products I suppose but seeing they pay no attention to things that can't be measured like image depth and musical involvement and rhythm and timing It would probably only be a fluke.

And like Kairosman says those products are probably more likely to sound half decent rather than very good.I have a fiend who bought one of those DACs and is of the same opinion.A 15 year old Musical Fidelity DAC and a 27 year old Sony CD player sound much better.

@gosta what you consider "very very good" is only your opinion and valid only when someone else's sonic tastes align with yours. I have their darling DAC the Topping D90SE I purchased out of curiosity, and it is merely competent to my ears in my system. Nothing like the $ unicorn they claim it to be, midfi at best.

A system put toghether from ASR favourites would be very very good. I got one. 

 

I do wonder how ASR would deal with testing some Accuphase products-especially their CD players and DACs.Accuphase components do have a "house sound" .You get a sound that has a lot of timbre and harmonics and general tonal richness.And yet any Accuphase product I have seen measured also has textbook perfect measurements.Their CD/DACs really stand out from the crowd for having this character.Somebody described it as digital with soul.Esoteric is another high end Japanese company that is well regarded for its CD players and DACs and which also measure perfectly but  they sound very different to Accuphase and have no character at all.So how would ASR account for these sonic differences?My guess is they would just avoid addressing it.