AUDIO PRICE INSANITY PRICE VS. PERFORMANCE WORTH IT?
What do you y’all think? I have 30k into my system and I recently attended AXPONA 2018. I compared what I heard to what I have. I felt my system compared to the 80 to 100k systems quite well. Matching is important. Also your reference point. Any thoughts yall?
Myself, I collect and use the best vintage gear from the Golden Age of High End - 1965 - 85! That was when the most innovative (and affordable!) stuff was made! Since then prices have only risen for NO real advances in sound quality!
With right around 6k-15k used well and covering the whole system, a person should easily be able to blow away an audio trade show presentation. It's all about the method of listening used.
"Myself, I collect and use the best vintage gear from the Golden Age of High End - 1965 - 85! That was when the most innovative (and affordable!) stuff was made! Since then prices have only risen for NO real advances in sound quality!"
This is an overlooked truth many times (I would go as far as stretching it to 1990). When HEA got into the selling revolving door of components and speakers the selection of "being able to play a wide range collection" dropped dramatically. Whenever you see a music playback excuse for not being able to play a recording you know something isn't right. And as roberjerman said right around 1985 there was a ceiling hit. Not so much with less expensive products but certainly with the over built ones.
"High priced audio gear is just a trophy for high rollers! If you've got it, flaunt it!"
Sorry I just don't agree. Audiophiles that I know don't tell anyone how much their system cost. Many of us enjoy our system's by ourselves or with a significant other. People who aren't into this hobby don't know Magico from speakers XXX.
Calvinj - I downscaled from a large Krell /Dynaudio system to an OTL tube system, and for me, this works great. I have looked for used quality components and upgraded from there. It is sad that part of the audio gear becomes over-priced, but it is also a consequence of being small niche. Prices are of course unreliable, what matters is the testing of the component, preferably with your own ears.
My listening room is worse than a trade show room. I was able to listen past that. Background. I just spent the last 10 years on a hyper search for the best gear. Me and 3 of my friends have heard the best. I listened to a 750k system in a perfect acoustical enviorment. Raidho came to his home listening cottage along with solutions and set it all up with measurements etc. He used ansuz cabling. He actually had 3 different high end systems 3 years at a time and I spent substantial time with it. I and my friends have also had Veloce, allnic, Sonus Faber, Vienna acoustics, revel, rel, audio research, high fidelity, cables, Mit, kr audio, mark Levinson, Gato audio, esoteric, MIT, Clarity Cables, kimber cables, atlas cables, Tara labs, classe, Marantz, soulutions, Resonessence labs, Sony, Ayon, dynaudio, Melco, Lumin, esoteric, focal, rogue, Melco, Hegel, oppo, Clarus Cables, McIntosh, musical fidelity, luxman, Bryston. First I would like to say because of system matching and the research I have personally put in. A 10k beating my system is possible but highly unlikely. I think there a people who haven’t heard the best gear so the reference point they have is limited. What I have found is there is an improvement once you get around that 10k Mark is substantial. I’m not saying you can’t get great sound with less but 10k is a great price point. When you get to 25k and up you usually get better technology based improvements. Usually soundstage, transparency, lower noise floors, dynamics, bass performance, treble performance. I think once you get past that there is the 60k and up systems. They are a different animal IF THEY ARE DONE CORRECTLY AND MATCHED PROPERLY. ALL OF THIS DEPENDS ON IF YOU MATCH YOUR EQUIPMENT, ROOM, CABLING AND SOURCES PROPERLY. I’m not asking people to agree with me these are just things based on my last 10 years of independent research. Your experiences are probably different. I think I did in 10 what it takes most of us 25 years to do. I have had access to a lot of gear cabling and listening enviorments. My system is currently up on my Facebook page. I’m proud of it and after I listen to higher priced gear I don’t come home disappointed with my gear. The best system I’ve heard was the late Dave Baskin of design Audio video. He had raidho 5.1 with all solutions electronics and ansuz cabling. It was about 700k retail but it was truly the AUDIO MATRIX AND TWILIGHT ZONE. For that money it should have been. Yes it kicked any systems a** ever and I never want to hear something that good again cause I was about to foam at the mouth. Anyway my Gato FM6 speakers, KR Audio va900, Resonessence Mirus Pro, clarity Cables, high fidelity reveal cables, atlas mavros, Sony es5400 modwright, Melco server system ticks all my personal boxes and kicks a**. You can find your path cheaper or more expensive. You ear is your ear. I’ve come to the conclusion that a lot of high price gear is better but you can spend less and get to a better place if you match your gear, have great cabling and sources and put it in the right acoustical enviorment. Just my thoughts based on my 10 years and all the brands and systems I’ve heard.
I think people spend a lot on their systems because they want to, not because they have to. Good sound doesn’t have to cost a lot. Nor is price even a guarantee of better sound quality.
My Lyngdorf 2170 powered dac and room correction piece is miles ahead of gear made 20-40 years ago. It’s fine to like vintage gear and I get that, but to say there have been no advances is certainly not accurate. Room correction as developed by Lyngdorf is a game changer and just one example of sound improvement not possible years ago.
I’m out after I add my rel 212se subwoofer to my current system next week I’m out. I’m out of the chase. I found out that it can be more of the chase and less of the music. I’m only in it for the music now. Life is short. R.I.P TO MY BEST AUDIO FRIEND EVER CHARLES THREAT. Without him I wouldn’t have my system. But I learned to live listening to and not chasing gear. Today could be our last!
@grannyring technology has improved. My gato FM6 have scan speak drivers and ring radiator tweeters and specially designed crossovers that definitely are cutting edge and allow for vast sound improvements to be heard. My Dac is made by the inventor of the ess Sabre chip. My integrated is niche tube KR audio out of the Czech Republic. I have a great mix of new and old. However technology has made big steps in the last 10 years.
One of the big changes has been how accessible great sound is at bottom-basement prices these days. Something like a pair of the new Elac Debut 2.0 B6.2s, an Emotiva A-100 integrated, and a Chromecast Audio will give you a great sounding little system for just over $500. Inflation-adjusted I'm not sure we've ever been able to get that kind of performance for that low of a price.
As far as the other end of the spectrum goes, a lot of the truly insane systems really need tons of room to breathe. The Von Schweikert VR11 Ultra system with VAC and Esoteric electronics at AXPONA was breathtaking, but you'd need a listening room with the physical volume of many entire houses to really get the most out of it.
In a modestly sized listening room a pair of nice stand-mounts, a subwoofer or two, an preamp or integrated with bass management and solid room correction software, and some judiciously applied room treatments could easily outperform a pair of huge towers fed by a stack of extremely expensive electronics.
@calvinj I'm happy you have achieved your audio goals and are so satisfied with your system. Congratulations!
This is for the general community: I'm curious how one can compare what an individual hobbyist has set up for themself vs systems that have been set up by others, in very different rooms / environments, with likely different goals and preferences?
I think that if your investment divided amongst the components, in a manner where each is in the same relative price range, then your system benefits. Or in other words if you have a preamp and an amp and the CD player or turntable are all in pretty much the same budget range you get a better synergy. I think where you see the biggest diminishing returns is having e.g, a $10,000 Preamp hooked up to a $500 amp in those cases you’re never get the full benefit of the more expensive item. As far as more expensive always being better I don’t buy into that at all. Taking into account that a hotel room at Rocky Mtn. Audio Fest, can limit maximizing the speakers performance, I heard a set of $250,000 speakers that in my opinion and others in the room or below the performance of a $30,000 speaker. They were hooked up to high caliber components so I really can’t blame them I just felt the speakers were a big disappointment. So to sum up I think performance to the buyers ear will always be the ultimate evaluation, with total disregard of price, then let your budget make that decision. The sad truth of this audiophilia is, we always want more and there’s always more to the obtain, both a blessing and a curse. All one man’s opinion of course
Buying the excellent used components from the past 20 years with proper setup in a good environment will achieve as great and satisfying sound and at quite modest cost as any of the current ridiculousness in pricing
Expensive is not always better. Now these are retail prices not what I paid. 14k speaker. 4k subwoofer. 9k integrated. 6k Dac. 2k server. 3k cdplayer 8k in cables and power cords and power conditioners. Now I didn’t pay retail I bought a lot used and traded some things. But my journey is done. If I take out one thing in my system I have learned that it can affect the rest so I’m staying pat.
I think there can be a direct relationship between price and SQ, although it is neither absolute nor linear. Synergistic factors seem to exist and appear to be more important than the total spent. After reading many, many Agon posts I note that there are some folks who inhabit two opposite ends of the spectrum; the folks who think the people spending big money are crazy and the folks who think spending smaller sums is not truly "hi-fi." I find both of these extremes unreasonable positions. How another person legally spends their money, less or more, in pursuit of their passion does not concern me.
erik_squires - I've long ago given up on the idea that price is always related to performance. If you are true to your ears and heart, you can spend a lot less than others to be happy.
As astewart8944 already stated, there is no correlation between price and sound. I have a Lafayette KT-550 power amp and it competes with new amps today and in some ways is much better. Just because an item has a high price tag also does not mean that someone paid that price either. All that being said, most people actually do not know why a specific unit sounds good meaning parts, design and implementation. Once you learn how a part or combination of parts work, then you can learn from there. There are many higher priced components that use basic parts and others that use higher priced parts. There are many variables to what makes something sound "better". From repairing gear, I have got a good understanding of what really changes the sound or a component and what I need to improve the sound. Funny thing is that anyone can do it once they have learned. From what I remember, most of the rooms I head at different shows use similar front ends to various degrees. So in my opinion, they seem to sound the same and does not allow the consumer to hear the differences or how a component can really sound. In building components, I also know how much time it takes to really build something that is special and also the cost to get there. So while higher prices do not guarantee better sound, understanding what makes something sound better is what I am all about.
I think we start at a certain place finanacially and sometimes the chase presents opportunities to spend more. Sometimes you get better gear when you do. However, better gear and the RIGHT gear for your system can be two different things. You have to play the matching game extremely well.
If you hear something that really rocks your boat and you can afford it, or may someday save up for it, then get it, no problem. If you haven't heard "the magic" but just have to have a new shiny object, then you're not interested in music. I heard someone's stereo with a pair of Spica Angelus speakers and he swore by them. I went home and put music on a pair of Sonus Fabers I had (bought used but still over $4k), and they KILLED those Spicas DEAD. I am NOT a snob- anyone could have heard what I heard that day. I was not rude to my friend, but SERIOUSLY, this guy refused to buy a more refined system even though he could easily afford it. I saved up and bided my time, and got what I HEARD was very very good gear over 25 some odd years. I am not an expert- a few select dealers are, but "you can hear" a superb piece of gear 9 times out of 10 and it's not difficult. The rule about huge speaker systems does hold though. Buy a quality system that can pressurize your room, and call it a day. But if you have to have a great tube amp for your string-quartet collection, be my guest. Just beware of irrational-crazy people who are hobbyists with a vast collection of disco.
When you find the pure sound, mostly on retro systems, you can sit back and enjoy the sweet tone which flows through every room even at low volume. I recently took my 4 way speakers off and replaced with a pair of AR8's..ZAR900 for a pair of qsc/t drivers with an inch of smooth paper on the outer gave amazing mid range, the tweeters are so sweet,,not overpowering...running a HK5000, RDP980 AND RDD980. The complete system cost less than USD1000.
Everything completely reworked by yours truly. Took a few days, complete re-solder and clean up. I have had many nad systems, they are also pure and one never gets tired of listening. Guess i am content now!
Set-up. An expertly set up $30K system will trounce a megabuck system set up by an airhead.
That said, the best parts cost money. By that I mean parts that are better in ways known to physics, not hyper-relativistic black hole refractory spirals (apologies if someone has already trademarked this - I sin in ignorance).
You simply can't fake nude Vishay resistors or vacuum capacitors or air bearings. Once you've heard them, there is no going back - and it doesn't matter how much can be spent on overhyped gear du jour, which uses such parts sparingly, if at all. And won't be set up correctly anyway.
If you look at my components and speakers most of them are not big name brands. They are KR Audio. Gato Audio. Resonessence Labs. These are my major components and they are not huge Audio names but they are quality. Gato Audio and gamut have some of the same designers in the past. The gato has great drivers tweeters and crossovers with quality parts and tons of research done. The KR audio va900 is a tube amp with a solid state pre and tube power and the companies own tubes. The Resonessence people are owned by the creator of the ess Sabre chip. I chose these for a reason not just hype. That’s important. No one will have my system. It’s very niche and sounds great.
One last thing! I have noticed a lot of the big names comoanies are owned now by venture capitalist who are only profit motivated. Not audio motivated. That’s another reason why some of these outrageous prices happen
Building a great sounding room and system can be done for less if one does his or hers home work . There are many great products used and new available that don’t need a mortgage . In my quest to achieve this goal I feel the low frequency response in the room is very important to get a emotional connection to the music .I use a multiple sub woofers with great success in my room . The other thing that helped was having a good reference . I found this by making a pilgrimage to the home of Jim Smith the author of Get Better Sound . My system to me sounded good but after listening at Jims I went home and made some room tuning changers . Now there are very few rooms that I prefer to my own .
The room can only be sorted once you are happy with your system. Once the acoustics are right, invariably you don't like the sound created by a component or cable (if you believe cables make a difference), then you change the sound, so you need to adjust the acoustics and round and round we go.
Being an audiophile is like owning a boat. Its a big money pit. But do you love music? Oh yeah.
the room can only be sorted once you are happy with your system
I suspect this is just about 100% the wrong way to approach things. Every system will interact with the room but changing the system to address room interactions, rather than address them at source is a recipe for disaster. For example you may have a mid bass room mode bump so you could look for some speakers with a suck out in that area but why would adding obviously colored speakers help anything? Likewise at the other frequency extreme you could have a lot of reflecting surfaces and find too much treble so seek laid back speakers, it could work but two wrongs don’t make a right.
In other words if you think your system sounds good in an untreated room and then begin to treat the room and it sounds worse it may be that you are now uncovering the colorations that had before been compensating for room interactions. If we (as I believe we should) want a system that is less colored, and more true to the original recording, then the treated room is more accurate, even if your system now sounds worse. Obviously gross mismatches (typically speakers too large for the room with too much bass that cannot be controlled) may be the exception.
The good news is that working on the room will make your system sound more honest. My advice is to take the time to understand how your system interacts with the room, address basic room issues (first reflection points and so on) and then spend time further optimizing how your system then works the room. A well treated room will reveal everything your system is capable of, for better or worse
@folkfreak Hi Folkfreak, I'm sorry. My post was a bit tongue in cheek. I agree with your post and I suspect a lot more people will read it and learn something.
Agree with folkfreak two wrongs never make a right, if you just start out you will never get to where you want to ........................ like in anything in life.
If you consider what is a desired outcome given all the constraints inherent in family, preference, budget, physical room etc. etc. you can plan back from the end objective to where you are at present, this takes research in to what the implications are of each input individually and collectively and if possible trial and error at each stage, this may include gradually adding improvement in system components as circumstances allow.
What is needed however is for the enthusiast to have his or her set of priorities of what is most important to them, even if we want it all ....now.
I Believe it depends on your Ears,your knowledge and your Personal Taste. Speakers for example are a very personal choice. What sounds great to you may sound like crap to me.
We have to remember that many music lovers have their sound systems in living rooms enjoyed by entire families and a spouse with no chance of any of those room treatments ever going up. With this fact in mind one does have to pick gear that fits the space in every way. Digital room correction is a must and some like Lyngforf do it so well one does not have to be overly corcerned with all manner of room tweaks that would not be allowed in or on the room.
Much to be said for this post I think.... "
Myself, I collect and use the best vintage gear from the Golden Age of
High End - 1965 - 85! That was when the most innovative (and
affordable!) stuff was made! Since then prices have only risen for NO
real advances in sound quality!
"
Recently auditioned a $5K and $7500 preamps by Audio Research to possibly replace my 25 year old AR LS2B MKII R. the store was using a $100K + 4 box CD player and probably $40K in cables, very expensive amps and speakers and full room treatments, playing CD's I brought and am familiar with. My first comment was what happened to the sound stage, it's all constricted size wise and well off in the distance. Then they changed the speakers to a $35K set on stands. .. which were not the equal of my 25 year old acoustats. All my gear is 25+ years old and stands up superiorly to direct comparison.
Even with expensive gear. If it isn’t matched right it can suck. The crash course I went on taught me matching. I got my main components and used my cables to tweak a little. Knowing the characteristics of all of your gear is important.
I disagree, calvinj. Knowing the sound of live, unamplified music (jazz, chamber, classical) in good spaces is critcial in choosing each and every piece of equpmnet. Put them all together with neutral cable. Then take steps to balance the sound. In a living room, diffussers? No, floor to ceiling bookcases full of books. Back wall "bounce", treatment? How about a woven Mexican or Indian rug, or a wall tapestry. Knowing what to listen for and what to fix to get "live sound" is the solution.
Fine audio, like everything else, is relative. As much as I loved my Quads, I found that they were no longer practical when I moved from a home with a large and open listening environment to a much smaller space. After auditioning many smaller speakers, that fit my budget, I found that the Gershman, Cameleons suited me quite nicely. Now back into a larger, more audio friendly space, I find myself very pleased with with my Maggie 1.7s. In my space, I I sometimes feel that I could even do well with the 3.7s, but that would cost a good deal more money and I would need more power, which would mean still more money. Sometimes, when what we have and how we have it tweaked, sounds very good (within our space and budget) we should spend more time enjoying the music and less time wondering about what might sound better......Jim
To each his own. My experiences have led me to the system I have now and it’s worked for me. I listen to live music. I’ve tuned my system to my liking and I have added what I need to get it just right for my ear. Enjoy the music not the process.
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