What about "Switching state" (class D) amplifier?
Atma-Sphere Class D… Amazing
Today I picked up my Atma-Sphere Class D Amps. These aren’t broken in yet. And they are simply amazing. I’ve listen to a lot of High End Class D. Some that cost many times what Atma-Sphere Class D costs. I wasn’t a fan of any of them. But these amps are amazing. I really expected to hate them. So my expectations were low. The Details are of what I’ve never heard from any other amps. They are extremely neutral. To say the realism is is extremely good is a gross understatement. They are so transparent it’s scary. These amps just grab you and suck you into the music. After I live with them some and get them broken in. And do some comparisons to some other high end Amps Solid State, Tubes and Class D’s, also in other systems I’ll do a more comprehensive review. But for now, these are simply amazing amps.. Congrats to Ralph and his team. You guys nailed on these.
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Because it costs money to build a better mousetrap. If people like their off the shelf Hypex or Purifi based class d amps then they need not look for a superior sounding amplifier. They found their version of great. There's also a four plus decade track record of excellence which also means service after the sale, a good living for those who work there, etc. |
@gdnrbob maybe ask @atmasphere what power cord to run on them? |
I agree, it is nice that he takes the time to discuss his products. It would be even nicer if he addressed how his product differed from competing class d amps in performance and what a consumer gets with his product that justifies the price of 3-4 times that of competing products. |
Agree with @jjss49 and @grannyring . Ralph is right that many do make class D "amplification" synonymous with digital and they are not. Charles |
+100 @jjss49 Ralph is a man gifted with patience along with his many other talents! |
@fsonicsmith The on and off states of a digital word have meaning- IOW the arrangement of the bits create a word which represents a voltage. In a class D amplifier the on and off states have no such meaning. When the term 'digital' is used, its assumed to not be analog. Despite being a switching technology, a class D amplifier's functionality is entirely analog. There's no intention to 'cut you down' or anything like that! Whenever I see anyone use the term 'digital amplifier' while referring to a class D amp, I feel its important to clarify since this is such a common misconception (or misuse of terms). If you do a search, you'll find I've done this on this site dozens of times over the last several years; please don't take it personally. |
It's not a strategy, it's an observation. |
@kuribo negative innuendo may not be a good strategy for it. |
Well, I just put in my order for a pair of Atmasphere Monoblocks. I was not considering Class D amps, but when Ralph embarked on this new path, I have been very interested in giving them a try. And, as many know, I am a Vandersteen guy, so owning a Time and Phase Correct speaker meant using a Zero Feedback amp for optimal results. Atma's new Class D amps use feedback, but Ralph believes that Class D allows for more Gain Balance Feedback that conventional amp do, and without the negative effect of adding high ordered harmonics. (I hope I got this right Ralph...) Bob B |
Indeed it would be nice to see the freq response versus load, the distortion spectra, etc....Too bad this info hasn't been forthcoming. Not sure how to interpret that... |
I am not sure that is universal. @holmz Nobody here is saying anyone’s opinion/tastes are universal, but they’re indicative of what one might expect in terms of a product’s sound signature. If any of us have learned anything in this hobby it’s that there is no “universal” truth in music reproduction. But that doesn’t mean one can’t get an INDICATION of what someone might expect out of a component. Case in point, if someone says something sounds warm with somewhat recessed highs that will go a long way to helping someone who may be looking for a highly detailed and more neutral-sounding component. Universal truths are pretty much a myth in this hobby given the myriad of variables involved, not the least of which is each person’s individual preferences and how they hear things. Just my take/experience FWIW. |
I am not sure that is universal. One negative thing about the ASR testing, is that they only focus on SINAD, and I find a hissing amp to be pretty distressing, and would take some harmonic distortion over hissing. And then there is no weighting, like a discount for 2nd and 3rd harmonic, compared to all/any spray to the right… but the Audio Precision test equipment just kicks out a signal number. So I do not think that it is out of the question for Kurbio to ask for objective proof. Ralph has been talking about the distribution of the harmonics for a while, so to see it would be dandy way to objectively show some of what makes them sound good.. |
@pstores please keep posting as these amplifiers come into their own. Ignore the naysayers and measurement nuts. |
Exactly Charles. I read these threads to find out what people think about how something sounds. Yes that persons opinion. I could care less about what they look like on paper. I can close my eyes and tell you what something sounds like. Try telling me what they look like on paper with your eyes closed. Pstores please keep the impressions and comparisons coming. |
You should continue to post your thoughts and listening impressions as you experience them. This is an open audio topic forum and most folks come here to learn, share and discover. When you come across an excellent sounding product, you want to make others aware. Nothing wrong with that. I have certainly done the same over the years on this forum. A few examples, Coincident components/speakers, Ocelia cables and Lavricables, Pro-Ject RS2T CD transport etc. I want to share these wonderful discoveries/experiences with fellow music lovers looking for terrific audio products. Audiogon is a great resource. Charles |
Let me be clear, Ralph never asked me to post anything. I also am a huge fan of Pass Labs, Coincidence, VAC, as well as others. I was very surprised that I really like these Class D’s. As I have posted a long list of others that has been in my system that I didn’t like. And when comparing them in my system with other amps. They exceed my expectations. In fact they have exceeded many peoples expectations that have been to my house. I’ll be posting my impressions of the Aqua LaScala DAC. But I’ll be alittle more careful how I word it. As not to start with what happened in this thread. But I can say…. These amps are very very good. And don’t do anything poorly. They are definitely the best Class D that I’ve had in my system. JMHO |
Me too @noske - my tube preamp has the 2nd at -75dB the 3rd at -90, and the 5th at -110dB. So they all look like what Ralph is describing, just we cannot see it. |
If it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck, it is probably a duck. From Wiki; Class-D amplifiers work by generating a train of rectangular pulses of fixed amplitude but varying width and separation, or varying number per unit time, representing the amplitude variations of the analog audio input signal. The modulator clock can synchronize with an incoming digital audio signal, thus removing the necessity to convert the signal to analog. The output of the modulator is then used to gate the output transistors on and off alternately. Great care is taken to ensure that the pair of transistors are never allowed to conduct together, as this would cause a short circuit between the supply rails through the transistors. So yes, Class D is more accurately referred to as a "switching amplifier" rather than a "digital amplifier" but things get blurred when binary quantization is involved as binary quantization is at the heart of digital too. I find it interesting that in order to "cut me down to size" you chose to seize upon my bad choice of nomenclature (when I in fact used BOTH within the same paragraph!) rather than comment upon the bigger points made in my post. I will say it again also-I have no doubt that this is a very fine sounding amp. I would expect nothing less from a man of your immense experience, intellect, and knowledge. I just get my hackles up a bit when someone like our OP posts a sensationalistic thread title and then waxes on and on. You don't want to be equated with Tekton do you?
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And this is a truth. I am such a one, for a variety of reasons. I am also careful to consider measurements (defined widely) for a component's attributes, again, for a number of reasons. |
@riccitone Yes they are nice and it is really confusing with the reviewers and the OE spec sheets. Just look at this review. Gold Note is making some very nice audio equipment. |
I read Atmasphere’s words as, ‘given the choice between no 2nd/3rd harmonics, then having them allows one to mask the higher order harmonics. So you want them higher than everything at 4th and higher harmonics. Some of this may also bleed into people running tube preamps into SS/Class-D amps. |
I had been confused about it initially, as GoldNote does not clearly specify what’s actually going on with the PA10’s internals. But learned this from a HiFiPig review (as quoted): ‘I’m a massive advocate of Class D technology when it is done well and so I asked Gold Note directly “What Class of amplifier is the PA-10?”. Here is the response I got – “ The PA-10 features quite an interesting design. It is not a Class D amplifier but it leverages a new technology that uses MOSFETs for the output stage, in common with the Class D, featuring an output oscillator (GaN Mosfets with Gallium Nitride), a proprietary design that actually doubles the power of the amplifier when reducing the impedance – exactly as a pure Class A but with extremely high efficiency to deliver great amounts of energy.” So there you have it.‘ So “more like” GaN Fet in output.
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Someone, please correct me: I don't believe that the idea is to "want" 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion, but rather our brains use the 2nd and 3rd harmonics that are produced by the musical instruments to perceive certain aspects from the sound. I don't believe any type of harmonic distortion from an amplifier is "desirable". |
@riccitone the Goldnote PA-10 is simply A-D not GaN I had them at one point.
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^This^ is total BS. Coincidentally the Purifi drivers are also the lowest distortion drivers. It is fine if you like high distortion, but don’t claim that high distortion is high fidelity. That sort of BS double talk is a like it is from a character out of Ayn Rand. |
If you mean a rather thorough and complete set along the lines of Hypex and Purifi, no. Please provide a link if you have time...Thanks. |
@fsonicsmith Let's clear something up. Class D isn't digital. It's a coincidence that the D and digital use the same letter. Its called class D because at the time (late 1950s) class A, B and C were already taken. Its an analog process. It behaves a bit differently from a switching power supply. For one thing the switching frequency is a lot higher- often by an order of magnitude. Another thing to understand is that switching power supplies are often used in class D amps but class D amps can run off of conventional power supplies too. But even in SMPSs the noise floor is much lower now than it was 30 years ago. Like anything else people sort this stuff out over time. FWIW our class D is so quiet that most tube amps inject more noise on the AC line. @kuribo You do know we have published specs right? |
@atmasphere |
The OP has not been very clear as to whether Ralph suggested that he post his impressions. Ralph has a new product and he needs to get some attention over it. Even if not, it is pretty abundantly clear that the OP is already a fan of Atma-Sphere and is far from neutral. It is exceedingly rare for someone to go nuts over the sound of an amp. Amps have a subtle affect on overall sound, and there has never been an amp and likely will never be an amp that "bowls one over" immediately with sound from the heavens. I believe that amps are critically important to overall SQ but it takes months of living with an amp to assess it's character and attributes. So despite the silliness in this thread over non-related matters the circumspection is not surprising. And then we come to digital amps as a category. They are insanely cheap to manufacture as has been pointed out elsewhere in this thread. To my mind, a digital amp is a switching power supply built to drive loudspeakers. If there is a simpler way to harness power from the wall directly to the pre-recorded sound signal it has not yet been invented. Ralph has acknowledged that the box-a plain vanilla box at that-is the major parts cost of this product. When the best switching power supplies sound better than the best linear power supplies I will likewise believe that the best digital amps sound better than the best conventional Class A/Class A/B ss and tubed amps. Ironically enough, the discussion is still about distortion-that this digital amp has less of it. Here we go again-the old fallacy that the lack of distortion means more faithful sound reproduction. Loudspeakers are the number one producer of distortion. Distortion needs to be embraced, not made the focus of elimination. Even the power in the wall contains distortion. Harnessing raw power from the wall is not the answer. I wish Charles Hansen and Tim De Paravicini were alive to lend their voices to this discussion. I wish Nelson Pass would join. In summary, I have no doubt this amp sounds fine. Very fine. Just the same, it is bound to have sonic virtues and faults like any other amp. It won't make your grass greener, your hair thicker, or give you greater stamina in the bedroom. |
@wolf_garcia The smaller guitar amps will hang around for a while because they are low enough power that its practical to overdrive them. But the bigger stuff like 100 Watt Marshals are likely threatened, if someone can put a class D amp out there that's worth listening to. The weight is a big variable here.
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I disagree with Ralph about tube guitar amps...they're not going away anytime soon, if ever. Note that serious pro guitar players generally start with a great tube amp in pretty much every case (exceptions for those who run "into the board" with effects...rare and generally sounding sort of processed), and add their personal pedal choices to the tube amp. Duke Levine (local Boston area guitar genius) describes his current rig in Vintage Guitar...he's touring with Bonnie Raitt...VOX AC30...I've known Duke for 20 years and every time I've either worked a show with him or simply seen him play he shows up with some of the coolest tube guitar amps on earth. Same thing with the brilliant Julian Lage...tiny 50's Fender tweeds like a Tweed Champ or some other little tube amp like a Magic. Brilliant sound...and no overdrive pedals for Julian. I considered Ralph's D monos when I bought my Pass XA-25 but the Ralph amps (that's what they're called, right?) weren't available yet so I had no idea what they were going to cost...now I'm so disturbingly enamored with the Pass amp I'm hard to nudge away from it...I'd still like to hear the Ralphs sometime...maybe a lower powered stereo amp? Loaned to me? heh heh...
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