Passive preamps do offer resolution but after that, not much else in my experience especially with the BeSpoke passive preamp ($10K). It cannot compete with layering of the sound (vocals - instruments), no space between the instruments & vocals, placement within the sound stage, etc. It just offers a flat sound stage by comparison.
Happy Listening. |
Different sound for sure. A dac straight to amp seems to be the most pure way to go. I always found my way back to an active preamp. Just sounded more relaxed dynamic and everything comes in place better. Certain music or even most sounds very good dac straight if a little thin. Detailed for sure though. Rock with lots of cymbals just sounded jumbled in comparison. Is it added distortion? Probably. Don’t care as long as it sounds good. |
Some DACs with volume controls have balanced outputs. |
"...Never heard a pre that "Improved" the SQ compared to "No Pre"..."
Have you tried a Conrad Johnson GAT? |
IME this always comes down to cables. I used to know this guy named Robert Fulton who, more than anyone else in the world, founded the high end audio cable industry. He had his special RCA cable that sounded better than the average Radio Shack cable at the time. It was a bit of a revelation...
Here we are 43 years later and cables are still a thing. When you run passive controls you are more subject to the coloration of cables. But there was a tech that was developed to eliminate cable colorations. That is the balanced line system, which has a set of standards that have to be met.
Most manufacturers in high end audio ignore those standards. So we have audible differences in balanced cables too- sparking the question of whether balanced line cables are even better at all. If the standards were being met this would not be a question! But to meet them, you'll need an active preamp to drive them. You can't do it properly with any passive volume device made.
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There is a Youtube video from PS Audio out there. John M. seems to espouse using a preamp than not.
As I am using streaming, I really need to try using my streaming app (Roon) vs my preamp.
Though I expect the result to be much like 'Salt to taste'.
B |
As mentioned, this has had a lot of coverage here. Assuming you are talking about a line stage and not a preamp with phono, then there are several functions. - source switching
- volume control
- voltage gain
- impedance control
- interconnect control
Assuming your source has sufficient voltage, then passive units, or DACs with onboard volume control, can get the first three done. Impedances can be mostly matched through your source/drive unit and amplifier selections, and short connecting cables can help with the interconnect control issue. However, even with short cables and more than sufficient voltage, many here find that an active or at least buffered stage improves body, tone, and drive so, at least in some systems, sufficient voltage alone is not cutting it. I have tried multiple passive units, and even a DAC with onboard VC and a 4V output, but always come back to a buffered unit sounding clearly better to me. Borrow a passive unit and make your own decision about what sounds best to you, in your system. |
Cerrot phrased it nicely "It gave flesh to the musical bones" Well said... |
A lot has to do with your amp. With my Gryphon Mephisto directly from my Emm Labs DV2, too edgy. To much of everything. With the Gryphon Pandora Pre, a much more refined presentation. Call it texture, more musical, all the familiar adjectives. For me in my system it was an easy call. Believe me, I wanted it to work directly from the DV2. I can see in some systems where directly can work but it depends on several factors. |
When it comes to gear, speakers first then a preamp, then a source. I like digital and analog. Everything else rotates, power amps, TT, DAC, RtR, FM, Streaming, SACD, CD, Cassette, Karaoke :-)
I don't use a preamp on my Victrola, BUT If I could figure a way I would..
Regards |
more seriously folks, i will quote @mikelavigne's response in the prior thread on the subject that i referenced earlier if this place had 'stickies' on this subject as posed in the op's question, mike's post would have my vote as the definitive and 'straight to the heart of the matter' reply 09-30-2021 3:19pm you cannot generalize about the importance of preamps as the contribution of preamps to the system performance is all about context and the resolution of the system.
at modest levels of gear preamps are limitations to performance as they add cables, plugs and mediocre circuits to the signal path. you are better off finding sources with analog volume controls that are capable of directly driving amplifiers (less is definitely more at modest levels). your net performance will be higher for the same investment. i’m over-simplifying things somewhat, but this is mostly how it goes. an exception is where you personally prefer the coloration a particular preamp might bring to what you hear. a matter of personal preference....and not how i like to do it.
past a certain point of gear performance/resolution level preamps start to add dynamics and drive to the music. then the next step is preamp synergy with amplifiers. the top level of preamps are the ones made to be optimized with particular amplifiers. at the cutting edge preamps limit amps and amps limit preamps. the idea is the sum is greater than the parts.
in my particular system i have a great passive preamp inside my MSB Select II Dac. it’s really fine directly driving my dart amps. but my darTZeel battery power active preamp combined with my dart amps is even better. but if i did not have multiple analog sources i would eliminate the dart pre and go naked with the MSB passive pre in my dac. |
An excellent preamp is the heart of a system. I went preampless for a while (dac direct to amps; berkley alpha dac and others). NOTHING sounded as good as when I added a Jefff Rowland Criterion preamp. It gave the wood winds wood wind; it gave brass the brass... It basically gave flesh to the musical bones. |
Only if you want the best sound. |
@twoleftears Yep. All you need is a straight wire with gain and a potentiometer. Amazing that no one figured this out sooner. well i had thought of that ages ago, but what has deterred me is done this way, i can’t easily get an extra $4,000 directional fuse in the signal chain -- and you know how those just make or break a system, ya???? 🤭🤭 |
^ This will only inform you as to how it works in your system(s). Not necessarily as a general rule.
Ideally you’ll have a DAC with extra available bits for volume attenuation, with a voltage output that matches the input sensitivity of your amplifier(s) for full output. Such a combination will allow for full power output capability of the amp(s) and full range of the volume control without the risk of bit stripping from the DAC. Appropriate interconnects are also needed. |
No surprise the Benchmark pre elevated your system's performance. I have had a few DACs with volume and always thought a good preamp was the heart of a great sounding system
Very shortly I will be receiving a new amp, it has two inputs which will allow me to A/B two sources... or two preamps or a source direct vs preamp... I will give direct connection another shot but I think it will still sound better with preamp in the chain..... |
This has been covered here on Audiogon many times before, again; it depends on the system. |
Yep. All you need is a straight wire with gain and a potentiometer. Amazing that no one figured this out sooner. |
@vanson1 My Benchmark
HPA4 preamp improved the sound of my Benchmark DAC3 HGC. This DAC has a volume control for DAC direct to amp. The preamp improved on the DAC direct to amp on low level volume listening. I used to do a lot of that late at night when the baby was sleeping. You could hear all of the music at low volume with the preamp. Without the preamp there was music missing at the low volume. A rather frustrating listen.
I have another preamp that is very interesting for those that want a straight wire with gain. It is the Topping pre90 for about $700. Unfortunately it is incompatible with my current office amp but if it matched I would keep it and sell a 10x more expensive preamp. The only amp that I got it to match was the Benchmark AHB2 amp. However, other people have had more success than me matching amps to that preamp. So if you have a lot of sources, for relatively low cost, you can try this invisible preamp to see if a preamp makes a positive difference.
I have Room Correction via ROON Core Convolution files. No need for that in a preamp with a fixed and weak processor. So I have s computer to do the number crunching for DSP. I am not using DSP at the moment but it served me well in the past. |
Never heard a pre that "Improved" the SQ compared to "No Pre".
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Yes, unless you dedicate yourself to researching and investigating really compatible components… I mean way harder than just high end audio… or you simple love the sound of one companies products together. Then the answer is a good preamp is the heart of a great system. Many people have tried, many people have given up.
By the way in general, tone controls don’t perform the function to which they are designed, note high end audio equipment do not have them, and digital processing has basically the same problem. You want equipment that does a very minimum very very well and nothing else. Low end equipment comes with all sorts of buttons and functions.
I am sure some day great preampless systems will common… but honestly not for a long time. |
You already answered your own question. The rest are just someone else's opinions. |
Good question OP. I have been wondering this myself for the longest time. Soon now thanks to you we will know. Already learned, 1v to clipping. Who knew!?!? This is off to such a great start, one can only imagine the many fascinating new things to come!
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Preamps can look real cool - like my Audio Research SP6! However a passive pot works just as well since most all DACs output 2 volts - enough to drive most all amps into clipping (1 volt needed). |
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