As I peruse the ads all too much on Audiogon, I have flat out come to the conclusion, I am better off listing something higher than what it value is, than to list a fair price and list it as a firm price. All too often firm prices get views not offers.
It seems everyone wants to get a deal. I know the very term "fair" will spark some controversy, since the term alone is very subjective.
I'd like to know how others view this. Do you pay a fair price when it is fair to you, or do you still try to get a few bucks off? Do you list higher than fair,knowing you will be asked to go to your lowere (fair) price? Just curious, Tom
If its a fair price and I want the item i will pay the asking price. If the same item has sold for a lower price previously and is of similar condition i will offer a lower price. Negotiating is a part of the buying and selling process. The thing i think is ridiculous is when someone trying to sell something makes the comment that low ballers will be ignored when a simple no thank you would be more appropriate; just my opinion.
The only time I make an offer other then the askinig price is when the ad states obo. Even then, if I believe it to be a fair price, I would pay the asking price. And I really don't like when I am listing something at a firm price, and someone comes in with a lower offer. If I was taking offers, I would state it in the ad. If they don't like the price I am setting, don't buy it. Maybe I am just getting fed up with all the crazy low ball offers lately.
I almost always pay the advertised price, if it is fair. In turn, I have sold about half of my sell items at my listed price, as I try and list a fair price. I like the idea of Agon members showing mutual respect and avoiding games. The community may be getting too large and that quality may dispear someday.
It depends on the market, and how quickly I want to sell. Many times it's just a matter of timing. If I'm in no hurry, I'll place what I feel is a fair price. If I want to move it quickly, I'll lower the price. If priced right, it'll move quickly. To answer your question, yes, I've paid full price. If I see something I want at a fair price, I jump on it, no questions asked. I find items are usually sold in the first 24 hours, and many times less.
There are some here who are looking for the best deal, and there is nothing wrong with that. If you don't want to haggle, price the item accordingly. The market will dictate the items value. If you price it at a no-haggle price, it'll be sold within 24 hours. If no one wants to pay your asking price, you may be placing more value on the item then the general public, and maybe you shouldn't sell it.
Tom: IMO, the issues are a bit more complex. Having been an avid AG "watcher" for quite some time, I have clearly seen that "things" move in packs and patterns. For instance, a particular item may not have any listings more months....and then all of a sudden there are three of them available. Some product groups seem to go through spells of being "in favor" and being "out of favor". In short, the marketplace is living and breathing.
An easy method to have a pretty clear idea of what things are worth is to subscribe to the AG BlueBook. True, for things that are out of favor, the listings in the BlueBook may be just a bit wishful, but in the long term it is a good guideline. Once you get to have a pretty good idea of the market, you will generally see that things get listed that are sometimes overpriced, sometimes a fair price and occasionally a good deal.
I pretty well know exactly what I am looking for. When I see it, I generally already have a pretty good idea of the moving market valuations. If if shows up as a bargain, I will be reluctant to even ask questions, as I know that someone else out there is waiting to pull the trigger. In these cases, I just feel lucky if I am the first to get there, and I gladly pay the asking price.
Yes, there will always be tire kickers, and bottom dwellers. That is the nature of the market. But in my experience, good quality product priced fairly will always sell.....sometimes very quickly and sometimes not so quickly. I have sold things that I thought were priced fairly that have taken multiple listings to sell. I have also sold things that I thought were on the very upper edge of anything resembling reasonable and come home to find my inbox flooded with people standing in line to take a number hoping to pay the asking price. Go figure!
Sorry for your experiences, but don't let it get you down. The market moves a lot, and right now (based upon my experience) pricing is at a two-year HIGH. Knowing this, I would just take things in stride when people try to bid you down. If you could compare AG pricing now with AG pricing during the first six months of 2002, I think you would be just a bit suprised at the levels of "price appreciation" and "price expectation".
I pay asking price ALL the time,, and almost ALL the time i do not go down anything at all on my listing price when i sell,,I just really dont like the "game" and do not respond to a listing that is priced too high and of course,, conversely really do not like lowball offers. I only make offers on something if i REALLY have been looking for something for a long time and cannot find it,, then and only then will i make an offer on a listing that i believe to be above fair market value.
If I am looking for an item I have done my research and have a pretty good idea of what the fair market price for that item should be. If I find the said item listed at that price I will offer to buy it at asking price as I think most folks on this site will do. As for selling items this holds true. I will list the item for a fair price and I think most people who are looking to purchase the item I am selling here on this site have a good idea of what the item is worth and will just straigt out purchase the item. There are always exceptions, but in general this holds true!
i have no problem buying at marked cost if its a peice ive been lookin for & i rarely ask for "a deal" unless i have seen the peice i want for a lower price & in the same condition from a trusted seller.
now when im selling im usually willing to eat the shipping costs as a gesture of good faith but normally thats as far as i go.
my perspective on most lowballers is that most are either tire kickers or new to the hobby & really think they are going to find the deal of the century.
i have in the past asked for lower pricing but every time its been for gear that was only 10% to 20% lower than the cost new.
It depends on how long something has been listed. If I am early to respond and price is ggod I'll give asking price. If on the other hand, an item has been lingering because price is too high, I'll offer accordingly. Most of my sales have been items bought on Audiogon so I don't feel I overprice them. I recently sold an item for what seemed fair to me ($335) and within a week saw the buyer list it for $475. He sold it. Now did I sell too low? I sold it for what I paid for it so I didn't think so. For me this is about trying different pieces of gear for cheap. And letting someone else do the same.
I am puzzled by some of the responses to the original post...why would anyone pay asking price all the time if the seller specifically states that the seller is willing to entertain offers? Conversely, if a seller indicates that his/her price is firm, that should answer the negotiability question. The fact that "for sale" listings can be designated one way or the other makes this issue fairly simple IMHO.
I think a lot of "audiophiles" enjoy trying new/different toys, and part of the fun is trying to get a good deal, or at least a good enough deal that one can recoup one's investment when the urge to try something else strikes again.
To begin with, you have to follow the market to be an informed consumer, at least for your favourite products/manufacturers. By doing this, you will know what a fair price is. I will also assume that I'm dealing with somebody who also knows the market; at least I'll start with that assumption. With this starting point, first I'll discuss purchasing. Upon seeing an ad for what I want, if I feel the asking price is fair market value, I offer full price immediately so that somebody else doesn't grab the item. After all, it's a fair price. If the price is higher than fair market value, either the person is unfamiliar with the used market for the item, or the person is leaving some haggling room. I'm not sure which is the case. So I offer the lower, but fair market price. I wouldn't insult him by lowballing less than fair market value and assuming the person is stupid. If he doesn't take the fair price, I walk. I don't look to take advantage of another person with a lowball offer, but neither will I be taken advantage of by paying an unrealistic price or by wasting my time haggling with a person who has an unrealistic expectation as to the value of his item. Next, selling, It's a bit simpler since I don't haggle. I offer my item firm at fair market value. If the purchaser know the fair market value, it's a quick deal with an offer at the list price. Any offer for less is a lowball. The person either doesn't know the market or thinks I'm stupid. Communication ends pretty quickly. Also, as some other posts note, the market moves in cycles. Just because you don't get an offer at your price doesn't mean the price is not fair. Something that is listed for a couple of months without selling can sell immediately at another time of year. Overall, my experience has been to buy and sell at list price, with no haggling, with courteous, decent AudiogoN members. The only bad experience I had was with a guy who offered 25% less than fair market value, plus lowballed shipping costs, plus wanted me to eat PayPal costs. When I courteously told him that I couldn't sell to him, he got supremely ticked off. Having had this experience, I can understand why some listings state that lowballers will be ignored. Lowballers assume you're stupid and are most likely to be discourteous to you.
If I really want it and the price is fair I pay it. Otherwise I loose out on something I really want , for an amount of money that sometimes gets silly. I try to list anything I sell at a Fair price becuase I feel its in the true spirit of all of us true Audiogoners. I usually do not move off my asking price by a great deal , but I know what the original poster means, everyone wants a deal. So if I feel a pair of cables for example is worth 400.00 , I do list them at 425.00 , because I find it rare that people offer the asking price. By the same token if I see a pair of cables just as an example , that rarely come up on Audiogon, and If I really want them, I'll pay the 425.00 to not loose the opportunity. To each his own I guess.
The answer to your post question is yes. I have at times paid full asking price for components on Audiogon. This has only happened when the asking price is so low that I feel confident that if I want to resell the item that I will have no problem reselling at or above the price that I paid.
More often than not I try to negotiate the best price that I can on any particular component that I am interested in purchasing. I have found that whenever I list an item the same process takes place. I love lowball offers. Often times these turn into better offers that lead to sales. I do not know if any of us can really tell who a tirekicker is by first Email transmission.
My personal advice, take it for what it is worth, is that in the free market that Audiogon is it is in the best interest of sellers to never isolate any potential purchaser. You never know when that person is ready to make the leap to whatever you are selling, which may be the next item that you list. Also, conservatively grade your components on the Audiogon scale and insure everything that you ship for at least its full replacement value.
Fair price is in the eye of the two people involved in any Audiogon transaction. The free market dictates that supply and demand will meet at that juncture. That is the beauty of Audiogon.
I've always paid full asking price. After reading some of the posts I must be a wimp but I ignore obo's and just look at the list price. If it's too much, look elsewhere. On the other hand I can see considering offers as a good idea. Otherwise better get a big garage. I do wonder why after the 2nd or third listing people don't lower their price or put it up for auction.
O.B.O.- Another point to consider O.B.O. Is another fine example of this discussion. I have on occasion considered saying in my listing for a popular item, something like this, "In this case I mean O.B.O. to mean the final price will be my asking price or the best offer above it. I've never done this but I have considered it for a super hot item, especially if I'm not sure of the value.
Who knows???? In that case auction is probably the best venue for that kind of item. Tom
Probably half the items I have sold have been at my asking price, while the others were still in my low range estimate. I try to list them at a price which I think reflects their value. Some items have sold really quickly & I wonder if I listed them to low. I rather think ...there aren't many of them & so someone was just waiting.
A few items (mainstream items) seem to bring out the low-ballers ....when I sold my B&W center channel. It was fairly priced & I received several offers, but the first 3 buyers were all flakes. I also had a bit of difficulty selling my cd player this summer. I don't think I would sell an expensive item during the summer again. One potential buyer kept on trying to telling how cd players were doomed and why his price was good. I decided not to sell it to him (constant emails) & just waited it out.
When buying items, I pass over items that are unreasonably listed. If the discount is not significant from a dealer why bother. I think all of my purchases have been within 10% of asking (net dollars). I also won't pay PayPal fees (nor do I charge them). Its matter of principal (the agreement w/ PayPal states that fees cannot be passed on to the buyer). I also stay clear of adds saying "low baller will be cheerfully ignored, etc.". Its just rude. I think they can find a better way to word an ad.
I pay the asking price when I want something now! If I want to play and the add says obo, then I'll make a reasonable offer very close to the asking price or just ask for shipping included at asking price to make the payment calc quick and easy. If the asking price is out of line of what the item sells for typically on audiogon based on condition and feedback level, I won't even bother making an offer. In 30days and the second listing the buyer will drop their price closer to typical asking or they won't sell it unless someone WANTS it and the choise is dealer or high used.
Carmantom: that obo you were talking about has happended to me a couple of times and it really annoys me. If you want to post an auction post an auction, I have dealt with a couple of people that have done that "what is your offer over my listing?" I told him I would pay his asking and shipping and he said I had to offer more? More than what? (he wouldn't say) so I just moved on. Life it too short to play games.
So we could create a new checkbox these people aren't brave enough for an auction or afraid to ask what they really want (Because they overvalue what they have) we have
1)Fixed 2)OBO (Or Best offer) 3)BOO (Best Offer Over)
I've paid asking price 75% of the time, mostly when I'm in early and know that I want it. If something gets few views or has lingered for over a week, I'll make an offer. I've been surprised many times, though, when sales are pending on seemingly abject pieces that haven't gotten many views or are overpriced.
As a buyer I will gladly pull the trigger and pay asking price for an item I feel is worth it.
As a seller I price my items with a little "wiggle room" built in.
My ads always say: "lowballers cheerfully ignored". If that gets the goat of others, they must see a reflection of themselves. Recently the amount of tire-kickers and lowballers here has reached a fairly good level. I'm happy to play email and phone tag with a serious buyers, but not for time-wasters.
My feedback here reflects how I have done business.
I have once or twice had a second offer higher than the asking price, when I was already committed to a sale. The message would be something like "I just saw the ad, I'll pay you $XX more to hold it for me."
Needless to say I would have wished this buyer to have been a bit quicker off the mark... I suppose if I were selling to feed a starving family, I might take a higher offer after I had already agreed to a sale, or try to jack up the price to the first buyer.
Thank God I'm not that desperate. I might have real trouble writing the messages this kind of dealing requires.
I'll pay first price if it's fair based on my research and I want the item. That seems pretty much a constant in these replies. If the asking price seems to have some bargaining room built in, I might offer ten or fifteen percent less, or propose a deal on shipping.
A few times I have made offers I considered fair but the seller thought were low. The resulting negotiations, if they didn't make a sale, often made a friendly and instructive correspondence. People talk about what they consider to be the best and worst aspects of their gear, and I've learned a lot.
I never pay asking price, but I'm not here to insult anyone. At most I offer 20% less, but 9 times out of ten 10% less. If I think my offer is fair I don't feel bad about it. On the other hand, people offering 1/2 price--well, that's just ridiculous. It's a waste of time and insulting. On the other side, I've never sold anything for asking price, but have used the same 10/20% parameters. The one exception was giving away my beloved Levinson amp because of...well, don't get me started.
Depends on the item. If you are looking at a fairly priced Denon DL103R, 103D, or Dynavector DV17 (fairly priced) I would offer the asking price after missing out on quite a few. For purchase less than 300 bux my inclination is usually to offer the asking price with shipping included; that typically works well.
Seems many sellers, myself included, price things with the expectation that buyers want to "get a deal"; ie, make an offer and play "let's make a deal". That can lead to lots of wasted time if one party is insincere but my experience has been good.
If an item is priced at what seems too high to me given what I've seen in the market and I am interested I will send an email saying something along these lines:
"I know this is a fixed price listing. If you are unable to sell it at your desired price and are willing to negotiate a lower price please contact me". That has responded in several "firm price" items being discounted moderately; usually about 10 to 15% and with shipping thrown in.
Actually some of us view "low ballers will be cheerfully ignored" as just plain rude. Its also an indication the seller has no problem dismissing someone arbitrarily or dealing with them in a less than friendly manner. I would think this would be particularly true if a problem arose after the item arrived. Fortunately, we get to choose who we decide to do business with.
I agree with C123666. Sometimes it can be frustrating to see something for sale with at a fixed price that is obviously too high given the market. I don't think there's anything wrong with saying, "If you decide you're willing to talk about the price, please let me know." It's happened to me as a seller once or twice, and I've never been insulted.
I think everybody has valid points with everything said, which bears out that the market controls itself. You get the occasional great deal but like so many have mentioned, you have to be quick on the trigger. I've been the 3rd to respond to an ad & it's been sold, which brings me to the original question. Yes, I've paid the asking price but usually on lower priced items & I price my items the same way. I just sold 2 items at asking price and a third I threw in shipping, although I usually offer shipping when something is only a few hundred or less. It just makes the transaction quicker to complete & I've already added the bone. I believe my quickest deal was completed in two days from the ad listing to the buyer receiving the item.
I read all the posts & checked the feedback of everybody. To my surprise, I have more feedback than anybody who has posted to this point, even though I'm sure everybody is owed a few good comments. Not that this makes me an authority on buying & selling, as there are many I've dealt with that have many more very good #'s to their credit, although I think I may have something to share.
Nothing wrong with making a lower offer but it's all in how you go about it, as lowballing has a negative connotation attached. I expect a little haggling when selling higher priced pieces, as it's part of doing biz & I always ask for a best price when making a purchase of higher priced items.
I suppose it all comes down to basic economics of supply & demand, although everybody has their own set of rules as to what they're willing to do. Last thing I want in a transaction is to look at something in my rack & keep thinking about how mucked up a deal it was or how I feel it wasn't quite fair, as this will undoubtedly affect my listening sessions. Same set of rules for selling, as I've had multiple dealings with the same people & it's pretty hard to sell a second time to someone you didn't have a flawless transaction with.
Driver, you're right! I'm 12 transactions behind you. Time to sell off the system and start over. I'll pass you yet!
FWIW, I just replied to a ad last night and offered full price, no questions asked. When someone lists a $2500 amp for $785, you don't try to lowball them. I saw it about an hour after he posted it....too late. I came in second, again. I came in second on a preamp, similar situation about two weeks ago. It's very rare to get a chance to buy an item if it really is priced to move. Why haggle?
Here's my rule: I always offer and pay what the item is worth to me. I always know what that number is, and of course it depends on the market. Likewise I always accept the minimum the item is worth to me (ie to keep). I does seem like most folks here have to get "something" (ie free shipping, $'s off, or whatever). Often this is asking price.
The problem with playing the garage sale game is that you may lose an item to another offeror. If you don't want it that bad then I guess that's ok.
I pretty much always try to negotiate a lower price. I usually max out my budget when I'm looking to upgrade, so every little bit counts. I never feel bad about making a low offer. If it's treated as an insult, I'll appologize. If the seller doesn't take my sincere appologies, I don't want to deal with him anyways. But courtesy is the most important thing and I'm glad to say that things usually end up on good terms for me. Sometimes, we forget that many of us are here trying to buy something that we otherwise cannot afford. You never know if you never ask. There are a few "dream" items that I constantly keep an eye on. Since I can't really afford them now, I'll try to get it at my price, that way, I wouldn't mind if I don't get the deal and I wouldn't lose anything if I really can't afford to keep it.
I certainly don't have any problem with the lowballer's will be ignored phrase. Its their ad, their equipment, and their right to put whatever information in the ad they see fit. However, the phrase lowball offers will mean different things to different people. Thus, the inanity of the phrase. In my experience, I have seen that in most cases this phrase is added to ads where the equipment is priced extraordinarily low.
Add 3% for PayPal: No way. That's the price the seller pays for quick safe confirmed payment. Asking the buyer to pay that fee along with shipping is insulting.
Lowball offers will be ignored: Some of the Audiogon people I've dealt with lately think this is eBay. Looking for a cheap deal. I don't have the time or inclination to deal with people like that. I don't care if your wife has you on a budget or (insert other sad sack excuse). That's not my problem. I have no use for that at all.
I paid the asking price for my speakers because it was very fair and I have no regrets. I have also made an offer lower than the asking price for a cable (without warranty) that was listed for just $7 cheaper than a new one but it sold anyway! Perhaps the only way to know the current market value of an item is to have audiogon post the price that the listed item actually sold for instead of just saying that the item sold. Otherwise, the buyer has to get to know prices by watching similar listings over a period of time or by paying for the audiogon bluebook price guide. While most everything is negotiable, common sense and fairness should be the guide for both buyers and sellers.
Ncsercs, I agree with your take on lowballers. Some are downright comical though. I don't get insulted, I actually have a good laugh.
As for the Paypal, I see it the other way. I, as the seller am happy to wait for the money order to arrive. I'll usually even take personal checks and wait another two weeks to ship. I find it's the buyer who cannot wait for the item that wishes to use Paypal for quicker delivery. If the buyer chooses to use Paypal, he should pick up the fee. If the fee bothers him, just send a money order. It doesn't matter to me how I get the money. Although Paypal fees, like shipping, can be negotiated into the deal. I've bought and sold both ways. I don't expect the seller to pick up Paypal fees if I'm the one who wants to use Paypal. The seller does, after all, usually does have other payment options. Now if the seller's asking price is too high, I have made lower offers, in which I'll usually state 'including shipping and Paypal fees'. If the seller takes it, fine, if he doesn't fine. That's just negotiating.
Like I said earlier, if the price is right, I don't haggle at all. I'll jump on it and pay all fees. This is rare anymore though. I still see it happen, but the items sells so quickly you almost have to be watching 24/7 to get a steal nowadays. If priced right, it's sold within an hour.
NCsercs, what if you look at an item that is priced at $400. Yet the audiogon average is $200. Is $220 a lowball offer? "Lowball offer" is a vague and useless statement. Perhaps people should say: "I'm going to ignore emails where I determine the offer is too low." What do you think?
Plinko, you're right in that respect, but some of the offers I've gotten have been a joke. I do try to price for a little wiggle room but some people want it all. I've gotten more for some of my stuff on eBay even with the fees. Weird.
Since I just sold four items, I feel I can now contribute to this thread. I put all up for auction. 3 started a $1.00, the minimun I was willing to accept for the item. 1 bid would have meant each item went for a buck, but all three went for about what I thought they would.
The fourth went for what I set the minimun bid for, which was the minimum I was willing to accept. I could have just posted an ad, but let's face it, an auction benefits the seller. So if you are not in a hurry, why not?
Funny thing about that fourth one, my Supratek. As soon as it closed, I had about 15 emails asking to sell it over the ending prce, one was $700 over. Most I ignored, but I tried to explain to a couple of them that high bid = sale to the high bidder. Even the high bidder asked early in the auction if I would end the auction early for more than he ended up paying. He was very nice about it, but I suggested he might be able to get it cheaper if he waited, and he saved about $130.
The bad thing here is on the Supratek, I had about 20 emails in the last 10 minutes of the auction, most asking inane questions. It was quite a PITA.
Where I'm going with this is this: I would rather do an auction than just post an ad. You can set a reserve, or just a start price that you can live with. Not to much worry about lowballers, but almost any ad will have some emails dealing with offers or dumb questions.
And I strongly disagree about Paypal. Why should I eat the costs? It's a buyer's convienience more so than the seller.
If the price is fair AND you really want it, you better jump on it and buy immediately. In the past, my tendancy is to always try to get a little better of a price BUT that has backfired many times. A realistic price from a verifiable source is going to be viewed by unknown thousands of buyers and it will get sold. Most people that come here to shop know there aren't any free rides... you can't by a highly regarded piece of gear for pennies on the dollar. Meanwhile, while your busy waiting and/or emailing trying to haggle the item may slip out from under you and be gone. Of course their will always be another in most cases but a good price is what you'd eventually pay for it anyway so why wait... get it home and enjoy it that much sooner. I'd even suggest if you have questions about the item and want an answer before deciding to buy just include them with your offer, based on a positive response about your question. Like if they don't list the faceplate color or something like that. Because by the time a seller gets back to you and then receives back your answer, it may be too late as somebody already got it. DO YOUR HOMEWORK FIRST AND KNOW WHAT YOU WANT, that way when it comes up, you can act swifty and get it.
I generally asked to use paypal and I have no problem paying the fees. If I ask for paypal, it's my responsibility when using that service to deliver the -actual- amount of money agreed on. BUT! Some people have started charging more than the 2.9%. I saw some guy charging 4% the other day, which is sleazy as heck.
Plinko, yes, the person who wants to use Paypal should pay the fee. That means if the sellers only form of payment accepted is Paypal, the seller should pay the fee. However, if the seller has other payment options, such as money order, personal check, COD, etc, in addition to Paypal, and the buyer chooses to use the Paypal option, then the buyer should accept the fees, unless he can negotiate it into the sale price, like is sometimes done with shipping.
Sailfishben, I agree. I too have acted quickly, but not fast enough. I find when a real deal is there, you need to recognize it and move quickly. Twice in the last month I responded to an ad with a simple 'I'll take it', no questions asked. Both times I came in second, the item was sold within minutes. When the price is right, do not hesitate, it'll go very quickly. While doing your homework is a great suggestion, it cannot prepare you for the best deals. I always find the best deals on items I'm not looking for. I find that what I'm researching/looking for, never pops up in a great deal. By the time I research something I wasn't looking for, just because of what appears to be a great price, it's either sold, because the price was too good, or not sold, because I found out the item didn't have the value I thought it had.
If only that great price would pop up on exactly what I was looking for, exactly when I was looking......then I know it'd be time to head for Vegas!
Now that 'research' thing should already be done way ahead of time so that should some ad come up, you can act right then. I didn't mean to imply if you find something to then research it... you'd probably be too late to get it. I do agree the best deals I see are always on things I haven't considered. It takes a lot to lay off of those sometimes. My wife comes home from shopping with a few un-needed items and invaribly says 'But it was on Sale'. Anyone need a high quality toaster with a built-in GPS tracking device? But your point on those 'not looking for' items is well taken and could result in a terrific improvement to your system in an overlooked area.
Just so we know--and depending on your Paypal account the fee is over 3%. One % more ain't quite "rip-off" status. (A note for our penny pinching buyers.)
LOL, not many seem to like "lowballers cheerfully ignored".
My last item sold in one day for $100 less than my asking price. The lowballers were out in force once again.
As others have said if you are here at AudioGon and interested in an item, you should also have a fair idea of it's actual market value. Research is the key.
I'm not a professional audio salesman, however I like my music and now have a system if I had to pay retail would top the $100K mark. Audiogon and shrewd buying have allowed me to have the system of my dreams for a fraction of it's new list. Shrewd buying means having a look out the back door while you're going in the front. It is possible to buy and try and recover your investment fully if the piece doesn't work out in your system or if the upgrade bug hits.
As to PayPal, if a buyer wants to use it to get an item quicker, then he/she can pay the fee. I have paid the fees on items I've bought when I wanted them ASAP. I would never ask someone else to do what I would not. Fair is fair.
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