Anyone has a reference system where amplification is SS ?

I had LiNN high end Solid state didn’t like too sterile went to valve wasn’t sure now Luxman class A and feels right although may dabble with an Allnic that is for sale SH near me …..

“nd that's another advantage of tube electronics. Can you do transistor rolling ?”

No. but with tube simulation DSP you can do a lot more than just tube rolling

Can you do transistor rolling ?

@inna

some solid state allows for adjustment of negative feedback. the darts have zero negative feedback, and that matters a lot in it’s musical flow and lack of grain and lack of solid state dryness.

tube rolling has an upside, and also a degree of confusion as to what is correct, and the uneasy feeling never knowing when something is going to blow.....and not knowing if something is going 'off'. tubes are always changing to some degree.

And that's another advantage of tube electronics. Can you do transistor rolling ?

phd, I don't think tube equipment should be left on all the time to sound best and I didn't read anyone say it here. I do remember someone said some years ago that a particular Lamm preamp had to be left on for a few days to sound its best.

Switching preamps is fun indeed, as is tube rolling.

“Reference system” will only exist the day there is a system that can not be changed improved upon. State of the art playback is subject to personal preferences. If one seeks accuracy then solid state gives us state of the art in accuracy. If one seeks euphonic colorations then one can use tube gear or better yet tube simulation DSP. With tube simulation DSP one can have the bed of both worlds with an unprecedented level of control. 

@OP "Personally, I will never have a reference system but will always have a good sound with tube equipment and analogue source wherever possible. The core of any music is in the midrange, and if you don't get it right more or less - forget about the rest. Choice of tubes is very important too, the difference can be dramatic, as everyone knows."

That's a rather different argument to the one you started the post with?

inna, yes indeed you will have good sound with tube amps but they cannot be left on all the time and thats where I'm coming from.

I do have a solid state Conrad Johnson preamp that does an amazing job with the midrange, especially when it is left on for several days. It makes wonder why I should bother with a tube preamp when it sounds that wonderful. But when I insert the tube preamp it sounds pretty amazing in a different way. From time to time I like to switch up preamps because it keeps things interesting.

Personally, I will never have a reference system but will always have a good sound with tube equipment and analogue source wherever possible. The core of any music is in the midrange, and if you don't get it right more or less - forget about the rest. Choice of tubes is very important too, the difference can be dramatic, as everyone knows.

@phd 

Yes, I felt the way you did until I finally bought one… now, I could care less about the wear, or any other theoretical problem. The sound quality justifies it. I now have thousands of hours on tube amps with no failures and no tube changes. 

Its a known fact as soon as you power up tubes, especially in tube amps, they are wearing themselves out.  I don't need that kind of concern atttached to my system. I got more important things to worry about like room conditioning, cabling, speaker positioning and etc.  If i use tubes it will be in low level devices like preamps, phono preamp etc and I will do that. But I still like solid state preamps a great deal for certain music and I have a couple of them as well.

@pennfootball71  how can a tube amp leak DC, when DC doesn't pass through an output transformer, which most tube amps have.

solid state is the only reference!

tube amps

all leak DC and can’t handle many power swings or bass

By the way, I heard that some do prefer vintage air-cooled Porsche. Besides being traditional it is much less safe and more difficult to drive fast than later Porsche. And that's why some prefer it. You do something stupid and you are gone. You really need to know how to drive.

@inna that is illogical.according to some State of The Art is SS it is the benchmark. 😎😂🥱

Some of the musicians I listen to I heard live and as such can compare. Anything introduces some coloration. For me negative coloration is the worst, that's what SS does brilliantly. Besides, not all tube amps are created equal, and not all tubes are equal either.

Okay sure, I agree sort of. That is why I have 3 systems and prefer tubes and your post is your opinion. Also not a VW guy, prefer trucks, snowing here today enjoy.

@jacobsdad2000

Your argument isn’t logical. Recording and playback are two different things. Reference playback should impart near zero influence on the original recording. It should be a benchmark for accuracy and transparency. Even the best sounding tube gear is inherently incapable of that, especially when asked to drive the highest performance of speaker drivers. Artists and Recording engineers employ tubes to achieve a certain characteristic sound. Adding noise and distortion during playback by use of tubes alters that sound (for better or worse) from what the engineers/artists intended.

Good subjective performance does not automatically make the component(s) accurate. For example, I enjoy the sound of Magnepan speakers (some of them anyhow) but they don’t come remotely close to playing the truth of a recording. They are enjoyable but I don’t fool myself into believing they are reference (i.e. benchmark) level.

Preferring tubes in audio playback is akin to preferring the driving experience of an 80s air-cooled Porsche over a modern 911. That doesn’t make the older car the better performer. 

There’s nothing wrong with preferring a “colored” system, but let’s not pretend that makes it better than state-of-the-art, nor a reference by which all others should be judged.

@helomech To funny. In the studio they use Tube Microphones, Tube Amplification and when they do not they use Tube emulators and EQ in the mixing process. 

Tubes = distortion + noise.

They do not belong in a reference system. 

Maybe 4 or 5 high end makers using Class D or GaN SS the rest is just cheap junk. Especially NAD and Cambridge.

I’d call it very good value and many reviewers would agree but to each his own.

Purifi and Hypex are generally regarded as pretty much SOTA technology.  

Maybe 4 or 5 high end makers using Class D or GaN SS the rest is just cheap junk. Especially NAD and Cambridge.

Well no doubt if appearance ie size weight and cost are considered in identifying a “reference” system, the “best” will likely pretty much have to incorporate many tubes and be quite large heavy and impressive looking.

The competition at the other end of the spectrum could be a tiny unassuming and spartan looking Class D amp from a number of high end makers.

So make sure the test to determine is a blind one. It could be a Samson versus Goliath scenario physically and we all know where any bias based on appearances would exist there. In fact to judge the biggest and most costly tube amps out there anything less than reference would be a major letdown.

And tubes will continue to rule, no matter what some people think or want. With few exceptions, like large scale music in a big room with particular speakers.

I will also note that I don't trust most people's objectivity or/and hearing. What I hear from many is - it is good because it is mine. Not to mention that few can afford million dollar set up, or even $200k one. This sucks, we all want reference level systems.

The systems that have impressed me always had tubes somewhere. 

Tubes, still rule the earth, even in 2023. Amazing since they’ve been around for over a Century. 

Listening to my reference SS system today, all day yesterday it my tube system, hybrid tomorrow. 

I believe that I have a reference quality system.   Pass labs xa100.8 mono blocks.   MSB DAC.  Wilson Sasha. Aurender. Transparent audio reference cable through your.   

@

OK,Let's  think step by step,

What is the reference system? It is the  advanced system, right ? 

so OP want to ask

Which is the advanced system,Tube or SS,   right ?

However, a lot of people use tube system,  while a lot of people use SS system. When you listen more and more, you can  simply figure out it is not advanced or not,  not high or low.

The sound come from tube is different from the sound coming from SS.

When you think one of them  gotten be more advanced than the other,there is endless argue about it. When you think they just different, choose what you like , there is not argue. 

and will have peace of mind and  just turn yourself in the music.

I always thought of a reference system as just that, a reference. In other words, something you can compare other hardware to in order to make a judgement as to whether a change makes a difference, good, bad or indifferent, to your ears.

All systems are reference.

Mike, I see. Large scale music in a big room, that's when one might want top SS. Probably also particular speakers. I wonder how, say, JM Labs Grand Utopia, would do with both DartZeel and VAC. Or Classic Audio speakers. I envy your Ampex decks, anyway.

?

I dunno.

My main components are pretty old, but were pretty well reviewed back in the day. How's it sound compared to today's finer SS amps/preamps? Probably holds it's own without embarrassing itself.

Works fine for me.

Now, if you compared that to a system with Dan D'Agostino amplification and a DCS source, I would expect it to get smoked, but since I don't have that....I'm cool with calling it a "reference system".

I can hear a difference when I change a source, a cable, a plug, whatever, so....good enough for me.

My reference system is the one I have in my listening room.  Some systems may be better some may be worse but that is my reference.

An excluding slogan as S.S. cannot be high end reference  dont reflect the necessary  designs trade off in all design cases ..

But reflect a yelling partiality as a magic simplistic  formula to be polite and i will stay polite ...

Hybrid amplifier would be also fine for reference quality sound ,  at least mine  Circlelabs A200 is.

I have Hybrid InPol - pathos synapse pre and pathos Adrenalin monoblocks. I found my end game reference and I suppose it’s technically more SS than tube. 

Hmmmmm!  Try to explain this to some of the best heavy hitters of amplifiers in the world (Boulder, Gryphon, Jeff Rowland CH Precision, Soulution, to name a few).  Does this mean I don’t love tube amplifiers that I consider reference, no!  I’ve owned some highly sought after tube gear as well as some popular ones over a long haul.  I’ve also owned some of the brands mentioned above in solid state.  I currently run Boulder and haven’t looked back.  If you haven’t listened to any of the brands I’ve mentioned, you my friend needs to move out of the bottom of the basement.  This is nothing new for solid state.  Hell, even a fully restored Krell KRS200 big boy Pure Class A from the 80’s and some before that like Mark Levinson would wear that badge provided that you had enough juice in your home to drive them, lol.  When it comes to reference in regards to SS, they’ve been doing this for 40 years or more.  Like I said, “ you should get out more”.

Tubes = distortion + noise.

They do not belong in a reference system. 

@helomech 

not all tube amps are created equal, and not all listeners have the same system aspirations, not all rooms are the same size, and not all speakers need the same power. so dismissing tubes for a reference system is not right either.

if you consider an OTL circuit, then you are much more linear by eliminating the transformer. if you have a medium to small-ish sized room but love small combo jazz and small scale classical, then plenty of tube amps can be reference quality. if you use 105+ db efficient horns then all sorts of tube amps can be reference quality.

so even with the theory of greater noise and greater distortion (a theory) tube amps can certainly be great.

OTOH in a large room and expectations for full frequency and state of the art linearity on large scale music tube amps will struggle to keep up. could be done. OTOH with darTZeel i know it can be done and not have to live with solid state restrictions in musicality.

Tubes = distortion + noise.

They do not belong in a reference system. 

@inna 

"Affection". Hardly.

I think a more appropriate word in this context might be "affectation".

Maybe you should let us see what you listen to on top of your mountain. It might help me understand your elitist point of view.

Sure - my old reference system had a Classe DR7 preamp feeding two bridged Classe DR3 VHC monos, running mids and highs, two mono PSE V running bass, in Vandersteen 4a speakers.  Liked it so much that is remains my second system 

What kind of music do you mostly listen to ?

@inna

everything. i graduated from High School in 1969, so i’m first a 60’s and 70’s rock guy and do listen to that some. but i’ve grown over the last 30 years to love jazz and classical. and over time i now listen to 70% classical, 20% jazz.

lots of string quartets, piano trios, solo piano, large orchestral. recently was on a Mahler kick. all types of jazz but love the golden age and like mono pressings too. my system can do full justice to large scale music. that’s where the tubes can’t compete with my darTZeel. they are not linear and can’t do scale without distortion. tube amplification can be excellent, but in direct compare to the darts their shortcomings are exposed. their non musical tubey-ness gets pushed at you. the dart’s just keep going. and the darTZeel 468’s are tonally dense and rich, great textures and flow. and a very smooth and extended top end. not like typical solid state. the darts are musically rich and supple. grain less and liquid.

visitors to my room are not aware they are listening to solid state or tubes, there is no signature for either.....just.....music.

i do lots of high rez streaming, have about 20 Tb of files, 4000 CD’s and SACD’s (now ripped to files), 12,000 records, and 250 reel to reel albums mostly 2 reels each.

Mike, I finally see a serious system with a reel-to reel deck as a source, two in your case.

Interesting that you preferred the DartZeel to VAC and Lamm. Maybe I would've too had I heard it.

What kind of music do you mostly listen to ?

@ghdprentice damn dude, you made me have tube envy, just reading that. Lol

:  )

Quad 63s=solid state , Class A                                                                                    Quad 57s= tube                                                                                                            ZU Soul = 8 watt tube S.E.T.    

I think people will be divided on this. Really don't care what you like or think, I have what I have because it works for me. May not for you, and really don't care not here to jamb any topology down your throat like some here. I have Tubes, SS, Hybrid's and each has their strength and weakness, some more than others. Enjoy what you have and be glad you can. 

@kennyc + one million 

The OP is arguing why "his" tube preference is not universal aka why doesn't the world have the same preferences as he does?  Answer - because we are not him.  

great videos ...

Jay is generous and intelligent ...

Tube and /or S.S. is an embeddings environment contextual choices as it must be ...

The only thing i will claim : the room acoustic is way more important than the choice between tube or S.S. in all case ...

I will not comment about Jay room because i am not there ... But it is certainly not my prefered room ... His microphone are very good though ...

Thanks to him for his videos ...