I’ve found that on my system the digital side is more finely etched than the analog side. Both sound great in their own way, but records just don’t sound so finely defined.
What is your experience?
I had a $75 analog set up and my digital gear with diy streamer and commercial DAC (together $16) equalled, sometimes bettered, analogue. However LPs that were recorded in analogue eg 50s, 60s, 70s jazz were generally preferred depending on the mastering. Modern vinyl was usually a waste of time, the digital source easily matched and often outstripped the vinyl unless it had been produced as an all analogue item. Unless you want to purchase AP remasters 33rpm or 45 rpm ( I have most of the originals I want on vinyl anyway) digital is probably all you need.
No matter how good a system you have, the quality of the recording influences the final outcome, poor recordings can sound better but inevitably the software governs the hardware and final outcome.
There are things I like about each format, better than the other. In the end, all that matters is my musical enjoyment of good tunes. There is a diminishing point of returns in worrying about perfection.
I am assuming K for the dollars, but what I can't figure out is why the post after it was removed. Not mine, but I don't remember it being contentious. Sarcastic maybe, but are we adults or not?
It may be helpful to clarify what genres of music we are talking about.
I understand the point about realism when trying to recreate sitting at an unamplified piano recital. I don't understand the point about realism when trying to recreate the sound of listening live to electrically amplified guitars, bass, drums and vocals through microphones all coming out of a PA system.
What is realistic in the latter context? For those genres, it's just about the preference of which distortions you like better. But I agree, just enjoy that we have both!
I started streaming with a AudioQuest Dragonfly Cobalt. I'm impressed with the sonics of it. Tremendous soundstage. I'd say it beats my analog setup 70% of the time. Analog investment going into the preamp is roughly $5500 (TT, cartridge, stylus, phono preamp.) The Dragonfly is $330!
I do have some have some albums that beat what I've been able to find streaming.
In the end, I love vinyl and probably will still seek out particular albums to add to the collection.
Streaming is great to listen to music that I'm not sure I want to add to the vinyl collection. I think it will keep the volume of records in check so I don't have walls of vinyl records. The collection is all killer and no filler!
People dont understand that engineering is not sound, acoustic/-psycho-acoustic has more impact than the choice of relatively good and equivalent piece of gear, and explain sound...Electronic engineering dont explain sound at all...Electronic engineering use discoveries in acoustic and neuro -acoustic...
Nevermind digital or analog, silence or music is neither digital nor analog, it is an acoustical/ neuro-acoustical fact...
People really believe that the sound comes from the gear alone because of marketing not from the acoustic settings of ROOM also and from their brain correlating each ear....
Pieces of gear matter, yes, way ,way less than your brain/room/speakers correlated dynamic...
Picking a dac or a turntable matter way less...Pick a good one for sure either a dac or a turntable....But nowadays dac are more pragmatic choice, and no more behind analog...
I don’t even understand what you are talking about. Digital can’t get a single note right, or even a silence.
If that’s your outcome with digital, then so be it. Yours is the antithesis of my experiences and listening to digital components and music reproduction. Fortunately for those who are dissatisfied with digital, there remains a plethora of analogue options. Thus, we all can be musically happy.
The first home of ignorance is our "tastes" the last home of ignorance is our "habit"....
Exploring and listening experiments is the way...
Our taste dont matter so much, we must play with them and not dying with only them......
Analog or digital choices are only taste and habit, going out exploring with acoustic and psycho-acoustic, make them what really they are : only mere tools...
They are one chosen taste only because of ignorance or because our limited experience most of the times...
I've heard records sound incredible such as 180 gram Black Sabbath Paranoid, Daft Punk, Rush, S&M II by Metallica and the Dave Matthews Band. But it wasn't always better than digital - after I upgraded my turntable and cartridge the specific recordings have a wider soundstage with excellent dynamics.
I've heard excellent sound from hi-def digital (lossless with a variety of formats ranging from DSD, FLAC MQA.
I started to listen to digital 5 years ago and I enjoy the access and variety of music versus my album collection. As I upgraded I predominantly listen to digital yet analog is a special event so I invested in the analog chain to be high quality (I would say sub-reference level) just like my digital source.
I agree with others that an excellent digital source is a bit easier to build and if I didn't own 300 records (most bought in the 80-90s) I would have focused on digital only.
No one needs 180g records, by the way, this is BS.
In any case, nothing can match tape at its best, and this will continue for a foreseeable future. After that we all will get brain implants and will not care. That's where it's seemingly going.
Digital recording can 'look' good at first glance, but if you are familiar with live sounds and have a good ear you will agree with my statement. Not a single note right.
Put the best tape in a bad room and install a digital system in a room acoustically tuned for it and you will choose the digital system...
What is best did not exist out of all possible specific acoustic conditions...It exist theoretically or on a top of the game dedicated acoustic room coupled to a top of the game amplifier and speakers... And yes mikelavigne said also that tape is top if i recall right... I trust him.... But for almost everybody this does not means they must buy a tape recorder at all.....😁😊
In any case, nothing can match tape at its best, and this will continue for a foreseeable future.
Digital recording can ’look’ good at first glance, but if you are familiar with live sounds and have a good ear you will agree with my statement. Not a single note right.
Well I listen to live music performances often. 4 such outings in the past 7 weeks. I classical (Piano and cello) 3 jazz . All 4 were small venues and un-amplified. We also have a piano in our living room. So I’m no stranger to live acoustic instruments.
Good quality digital components serve me exceptionally well. However I do understand and respect the idea of “to each their own “.
Likewise, my experience been very similar. Digital or Analog, all it takes is one’s commitment and carefully put together quality components to replicate ‘live’ music from physical media or streaming.
Digital recording can ’look’ good at first glance, but if you are familiar with live sounds and have a good ear you will agree with my statement. Not a single note right.
Some people just have trouble with the concept of of individual differences. No one will argue with the idea that digital does not sound right to you inna, but our ears, brains and experiences are all very different.
SACD has become the format of choice for classical for many people.
It's 2022. We shouldn't be discussing the merits of digital any more. Current digital will recreate any audio waveform, note, etc. better than any analog recording format we have. It's not remotely close. No one with any respectability in electronics will question this. It just is. 2022 people. There is a reason no one uses analog recording and I don't just mean audio.
There are many who think the world is flat too, like really believe it. That does not make them remotely correct. People much smarter and knowledgeable have shown the world is not flat just like they have shown repeatedly that what comes off a turntable or tape machine is not remotely as close to the original signal as modern digital. Sometime we just have to accept that what we believe is wrong.
For me the difference is listening to music vs listening to my system. But I easily have 5X more invested in digital and spend most of my time listening to digital. I just hate listening to the last track on a a record knowing I have to get up when it's over.
I am sure you aren’t alone with your preferences. That’s great! Stick with what pleases you most. Why in High End audio do differences of preference and taste have to result in potential conflict? It makes zero sense. Just go with what works best for you and call it a day.
Analogue for you, digital for me. Both are splendid options.
Close minded people have no chance to learn since they refuse to allow an experience that could cause them to reevaluate.
@overthemoonPerhaps fairly easy to build a digital setup if playing cd's, Streaming may not be an easy plug and play endeavor, all you have to do is follow some of these streaming threads to see how complex this can be. I've long had vinyl setups, I agree they can be rather complex, still pales in comparison to streaming. Innovations and new ideas coming fast and furious. Just today I had conversation in regard to diy clone build of extreme high end music server, this being Taiko Extreme server, the complexity is just amazing. And to think the music server is only one component of many that go into streaming, the whole thing is sort of like researching and writing a dissertation! Now that I think of it, sure would be nice to see dissertations on this very subject. Checking out the white papers on one single aspect of streaming can be quite complex and involving, virtual dissertations in themselves. Discussions of latency and non volatile RAM are just two small aspects which are extremely complex in themselves.
So the Taiko Extremes, Wadax, Pink Faun, Innuos Statements, Antipodes are waste of money. You think you know more about technical aspects of streaming hardware than the experts. I guess that makes you a cut above the experts, lets see your white papers so we can observe your expertise.
I'm sure you've heard all the highest end streaming equipment, so you have both the technical expertise and the golden ear. Oh, forgot, you don't trust your sensory perceptions, no need to listen.
By the way, we're building our servers based on this research, so I'm not contributing to the audio 'charlatans' you claim them to be. These experiments will gain us empirical knowledge, but we know you consider that invalid since our sensory perceptions are far too faulty. Ones and Zeros, all very simple, hilarious.
Funny how objectivists believe they win every argument, never provide refutation of every point of contention, simply revert to measurements and argument sensory perception can't be trusted, don't need PHD for this simplistic conclusion.
Engineers and scientists vastly more knowledgeable on this topic than them (or me) all call it a waste.
White paper in consumer audio are just marketing fluff. If they made a real difference they would publish measurements that show a clear improvement in end products. They don’t publish those measurements. Why is that?
Many DACs are already operating within a few db of their chip vendors theoretical limits. You think they are improving on that? Do you think you could hear a difference at those limits?
Done with the discussion of measurements vs sensory perception.
Neither of us build commercially, I'm a curious diy, have been long building my own general purpose computers, thought I'd give music server computer a try. Bang for the buck is off the charts with diy music servers, commercial servers all use off the shelf motherboards with optimized OS, really not much more than that to most of them. They don't render well, lucky if they have nice power supply. My present server is combo off the shelf/diy, I don't waste effort on rendering with it, so impact on sound quality much less than the servers doing rendering, the thing is vast majority of off the shelf servers pay no attention to rendering, yet they charge like they're doing mass amounts of R&D. These guys likely have the greatest profit margins in audio, along with the cable guys. So, you and I may have something in common when it comes to marketing hype. Difference is I don't observe market hype with at least some of the white papers I've read, in these cases the particular person writing the paper doesn't have a product to sell using the technical knowledge they're expanding on.
“Why in High End audio do differences of preference and taste have to result in potential conflict? …..Analogue for you, digital for me. Both are splendid options.” @charles1dad
@snsDone with the discussion of measurements vs sensory perception.
Agreed!
This poor dead horse has been beaten countless times. Dismissing what you hear with an audio component is akin to buying video products and paying no heed to what you see on the screen. Irrational behavior.
@ghdprentice, Come on! You know that was staged:-)
It is an odd set of circumstances. For an absolute fact, digital reproduction has a much better signal to noise level and distortion that is at least an order of magnitude if not two less than analog. I have at least 100 albums in both analog and digital form and I would say that it is an even split as to which I prefer. However I can tell instantly which program source I am listening to. As a generalization what I have noticed is that analog sources have a heightened ambience in relation to digital which makes the soundstage seem deeper as if more echo was added to the master. I can hear why people like this even though it is artificial.
When asked I will tell people who have not started an LP collection not to bother with analog. It is expensive and a PITA. They are better off putting their money into digital equipment and music. Those of us with large collections have to make the most of it and SOTA analog reproduction is very seductive. In my system that amounts to $35,000 in analog equipment alone!
I can only assume that people reject the factual reality because they do not understand in enough detail the measured values and what they mean, coupled with auditory perceptions that reinforce to them what they already believe.The inability, in this case, to do rapid side by side comparisons continues the belief.
People often reject scientific facts due to their inability to fully understand the information available to them. Our recent "world problem" illustrated that, but many other examples abound that result in incorrect fringe views. My ears, my eyes, my interpretation of data. I regularly get told "how batteries work" by laypeople. I design them for a living. I just shake my head. That didn't happen so much in semiconductors in general because most people have so little experience that even offering an opinion is not possible.
After exploring and discovering acoustic/psycho-acoustic optimalization methods, mechanical one only inspired by Helmholtz in my case , i discovered why people argue so much about analog/digital and cables, which are secondary choices in term of S.Q. impact compared to the incredible impact of acoustic and psycho-acoustic settings adapted and fine tuned for a specific system and specific ears...
They had no idea in a non dedicated room what is the real potential S.Q. of any good relatively well chosen system even their own...
There is yes differences between analog/digital, but they are minute one compared to the difference between an ordinary living room and a dedicated acoustic room... And by the way let me smile because my system value is low compared to all the money some invested without even adressing the room/speakers/each ear relation. save at best a few acoustic panels..
It is the reason why i am neither an objectivist nor a subjectivist, because these distinctions had no meaning at all and were created by the marketing of electronic gear...Not by acousticians for sure....
For sure using my ears to tune a room, objectivist will put me with the subjectivist...
They dont understand and cannot fathom even what i spoke about... It seems i am almost the only one to say that here....
Like we learn music art and language, we must learn basic acoustic and psycho-acoustic science, art and language; and learning here is not only reading about the LEV/ASW ratio in s small room for example, it is experimenting with it to hear it really...Same with timbre and all other acoustic concepts...
Even acousticians experimented and learn about the acoustic of small room compared to Hall acoustic... Why not you?
Learning has nothing to do with buying publicized marketed piece of gear...I quit that obsession after my 2 years intensive acoustic experiments...
I wrote this post for the only one person who reading it will save his money, read acoustic research articles and inspired by them will do some simple basic experiments... Nothing is more fun... It takes much time yes but cost me nothing...
I think my post will be useful for one....Which is not so common... I remember my situation 10 years ago now , reading audio thread to buy the best components....It had help me to do so yes, but the problem was that there is NO END to the best component to buy... And most audiophiles not knowing anything about acoustic suffer upgraditis... And it is a contagious disease...
There is yes differences between analog/digital, but they are minute one compared to the difference between an ordinary living room and a dedicated acoustic room
@mahgisterIn this respect I total agree. The other far more significant difference is in the recording itself. If there are a vinyl and CD release that are exactly the same, I am not aware of it. Of course even if there was, there is so much variation in turntables from each other and from optimum, that a direct comparison would still be difficult without testing the turntable system for operation first. Sorry naysayers, that will require test equipment.
@mijostyn Knowledge scares some people. What scares people even more is knowledge that others possess that they do not. Rejecting that knowledge is a defence mechanism.
@deludedaudiophile, It is what people come up with to supplant knowledge that I find most interesting. We do not like voids. We fill them in with .....mythology.
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