From an electrical engineer, not an electrician, I can find a technical path on why it is true that power cables make a difference. We as EEs need to comprehend the reactance of the cable - which is really a passive circuit. There is reactance to ground, between the neutral and hot, . . . and to the outside world. Need to model the inductance and capacitances to all adjacent paths; this is a spice model that can be analyzed. That mathematical model must include frequency domains that are beyond 60 Hz, and transient currents. While I will never take the time to build that model and measure it, I do believe its a fact. We must get beyond the adultescent thinking that power cables only carry power. In the real world of audio, they are a component that do contribute to the end result.
An electrical engineer on how power cables can impact sound quality
Sharing an fascinating discussion of how the design of power cables can impact sound quality of an audio system from an electrical engineer that does analog design for audio equipment.
The HiFi Podcast with Darren and Duncan / Radio Frequency: The 800MHz Gorilla
The discussion of how power cables can impact sound quality starts at 80 minutes into the podcast
From the Podcast:
"If you have an engineering degree and you’re hearing this and you’re shaking your head and you’re saying this is nonsense, my response to you is that you’re logical. Based on what you have learned, I completely understand your response, but unfortunately, the way that power cables operate is not the way that we were taught in electrical engineering necessarily."
"Power cables were always thought of as series devices. If we add this 2 meter power cable to 2 miles of powerline, why does this 2 meter power cable make a difference?"
An intro into the theory behind why power cables work from the podcast:
"The power cable is not necessarily a series element of a system. The parallel elements [of a power cable] and way they interact with RF in the room in a common mode sense to ground is incredibly important." [Meaning in parallel to ground]
My paraphrase of the rest of the discussion. They get into far more detail: The configuration and materials used in a power cable matter because they affect a cable’s capacitance which in turn changes the cable’s impedance. Most importantly, the change in impedance impacts electrical signal differently across the frequency spectrum.
Two ways to get more details on this:
- Listen to the podcast starting at 80 minutes into the podcast. The discussion of how a cable's design impacts its ability to shunt RF to ground starts right there.
- Send a question to the hosts of The Hi Fi Podcast. You can find their email on their website.
Credentials of the creators of The Hi Fi Podcast:
Darren:
Darren is the designer of many products for Boulder’s PS Audio brand, most recently known for Stereophile’s choice as the 2020 “Analog Component of the Year,” the PS Audio Stellar Phono preamplifier, and the incredibly well-reviewed new Stellar M1200 tube hybrid mono amplifiers.
With a career as an analog and digital circuit designer spanning two countries and several of the most well-known brands, Darren brings much experience to the table. He earned his EE and worked for both Bowers & Wilkins and Classe Audio before coming to Colorado, and also, before turning 30.
He is the designer of the PS Audio Stellar Phono phono preamp
Duncan:
Duncan has recorded 150+ bands, has published 450+ articles, columns and blogs and is an experienced DIYer when it comes to audio equipment and speakers. He met Darren when working as the Retail Sales Manager of Boulder’s PS Audio, and the two collaborated on an audiophile recording and concert series called “Invisible Audience,” not to mention the weekly hikes in the mountains. He is a mastering engineer, cable designer and musician, avid fly fisherman, bike polo enthusiast, husband and dad in his “free time.”
But what truly gives him a useful perspective for the podcast is his day job as a testing technician for the world’s largest online re-seller of high end audio, The Music Room. Over years in this role, he has listened to and evaluated thousands of the finest products from all over the industry and throughout high end audio’s extensive history.
@shooter41 I could not agree more and yes I have purchased some of those mega buck power cords from companies with 60 day return privileges and returned them all. They made little or no difference from the $300 to $600 cables I have purchased. Now those $600.00 cables did make a difference over stock and yeas my listening room is treated for acoustics. I believe in tweaks and I have done some that work and others that are pure poppycock and have been sent back.
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Folks, merely twisting wires won't necessarily do it any more than laying out a conductor, a dialectic, and a conductor makes a 20uf capacitor. A power cable is a capacitive, inductive device, and it can filter some frequencies, but not necessarily the ones you are having issues with. I have been in this hobby for over 40 years now. I never bought into the power being a problem until it was for me. I bought a Yggdrasil DAC, and the highs were killing me. People recommended power conditioning devices, but I blew it off until I had exhausted all other remedies. I finally broke down and bought an isolation transformer, problem solved. Likely the right power cable would also have fixed the problem, but the used isolation transformer was about $100, and power cables are all over the map, and who knows how many I'd have had to go through in order to get lucky? So, when someone says that power cables matter, I figure that they got lucky. |
Makes you wonder how the designers, engineers and builders of the (some very expensive) audio equipment we've had over the past 50 or 60 years, were able to develop a single thing without the use of a special high dollar magic cable to let them know how it would sound. If they would have only known the assets of a great power cable think of the time and money they could have saved by not having to design and build good power supplies..........Jim |
You raised an interesting point. For many looks are crucial. The system needs to look as good as it sounds.
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I do not think that they are running that 128 or 72V on the power cable side though. |
I personally feel like the uber-expensive cables are pretty foolish and exist only for those with more money than sense, but if you like 'em and can afford 'em, knock yourself out. BUT, I do like to buy reasonably priced quality cables. Power and speaker cables are so easy to make, and it's a fun project. I buy in bulk the two top offerings of power cables from DH Labs, depending on the current demands of the component, along with Wattgate terminations. They look and sound great and I'm thoroughly satisfied. Plenty of other things to worry about. |
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@audioguy85 Vandersteen power amps have 128 volt DBS for good reason :-) Enjoy your great cables ! Jim |
So the often maligned audioquest DBS system may not be bunk after all? I like what my audioquest Thunder power cable does. It seems to increase (slightly) the dynamics of my system. It also seems more quiet. I use it in combination with other audioquest power devices, which include the Niagara 1200 and the Edison receptacle. So, maybe the cable is doing nothing, or in combination with the other stuff it is....I don’t have enough time to determine. I’ll just say I’m not too worried about my power now, so maybe all I really have is placebo effect and some protection from surges and a bit cleaner power, who knows. Crazy to think that the money spent on just the cables and the power conditioner etc...are enough to put together a nice budget system that most sane people would live happily ever after with.....🙄 |
It's not the cable its the connector's aftermarket power cords mostly have better plug ends. And I have never read or watched any cable reviews or tests where the tester cleaned the contacts when comparing cables the sound change could result from just putting a new clean contact cable over older oxidized or just by clean connections from installing new cables. |
Indeed, the age old problem of who to believe: 1., Those who have vested interest must by definition be spreading distorted information so we buy their products. 2., Those who have no vested interest are amateurs so they have no idea what they are talking about. C'est la vie... The issue is not with the presenter. The issue is with the user who wants to be pampered, and is too lazy to test out what he hears. Anything you hear means squat unless you try it out. |
@larsman Makes sense. I imagine customers (especially audio equipment customers) complain about all sorts of things. |
Then you are lucky because most people cannot do that for sure...I respect your desire too.... Anyway even with the money i will stop somewhere and i even know where... 😁😊 I wish you the best ....
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You distorted my recommendation here... All of what i said, suppose that we must CHOOSE some gear first , gear we will not probably need to upgrade because basically good and well chosen to begin with... Electronical engineering is mature business anybody can buy relatively good gear ....Acoustic suppose to be related to a CHOSEN piece of gear first... And acoustically after tuning the room for this gear CHOSEN system, MY BET and experience is that in most case you will not and you will not need to upgrade...Because the results will be ASTOUNDING... WHY ? because my gear is only that: relatively basic good gear only and my end results after embeddings controls especially acoustic is astounding...And dont caricature me saying that i claim that my 500 bucks gear is better than costlier one: it is not true and not what i claimed... If your goal is listening music with the best possible S.Q. for the price you can pay...My advice is meaningful... If you goal and hobby is buying and plugging without end new gear forget my advice.. My advice is meaningless... Then the vicious circle you associated to my advice is a vicious circle in your head not in my acoustical advice...
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That burden of proof is upon the manufacturer of the power cord if they try to get us to buy it. And if they had proof, I do not see why they would not be shouting it from the roof tops. |
Audio engineering and electronic engineering is mature for many decades now, nothing in audio depend ONLY and MAINLY on price tag... Anybody can pick very basic good components at relatively low price.... Audio S.Q. depend more on acoustic then than on anything else... This is only an expression about a science fact in psycho-acoustic, and anyway my own experience after listenings experiments in acoustic... Then arguing about cables differences is pathetic sometimes, not because they dont make a difference, they did, but it is a minute difference compared to acoustic huge impact...Then there exist priority decisions in audio matter...Cables are last not first... I am deaf, ignorant, or nut, or i am right ?..... 😁😊 I will understand if you think that i am nut, deaf, or ignorant or even obsessed, because it seems almost no one is so categorical about this HUGE impact of acoustic compared to any upgrade save me... If i am right you can measure now the level of conditioning and consumerism programmed ignorance in all audio threads... People want to sell and buy, not to think and experiment....They spoke about their "taste" in gear not about timbre perception in a room ... They think that a better turntable or a better dac will give to them the BEST audio experience, it is not false, it is worst than that, it is not even wrong it is an half truth then worst than a flat lie....Same is true for a cable upgrade... And these videos may be interesting but the content discussion exceed most people kowledge here and anyway matter less than acoustic science for audio matter... Then instead of physics to improve your system read about psych0-acoustic...Not about electrons and fields... 😁😊
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@calvinandhobbes - perhaps the reason why they don't recommend power cables is that they may recommend something and the customer doesn't like it, and then you've got problems. What may work fine for one person may not not work well with another's, plus they'd get deluged by cable makers all wanting their own cables to be on the recommended list, so they figure let the customers do their own research and purchase of cables, which make sense to me... |
@larsman I completely agree with manufacturers not wanting to spend excessive amounts of money on power cords. From a business perspective, this bumps up the "base" cost of their components. I agree also that people who are into cables might want to use their preferred cables. Another activity that I spend money on is bikes. Saddles (seats) on even fairly expensive bikes are often throw-away items since everyone has a different preference for what saddles they prefer. I do wonder why audio equipment manufacturers don't suggest power cords that work well for their equipment (or perhaps several power cords from different brands depending on the sonic characteristics that a buyer might be looking to optimize). Perhaps because they are too busy designing equipment to be testing power cables which are not part of their core technical expertise? |
@noske @larsman @vanson1 In respect to using less expensive power cords, one thing that Darren and Duncan have said on their podcast is that PS Audio supplies a decent but not particularly expensive power cord for their components. This stock power cord was chosen because it provided a balanced performance for multiple aspects of sound quality. Though improvements can clearly be had over the stock power cord, they also said that it can take a bit of money to get a power cord that is clearly better in all respects. Apparently at a more moderate price point, power cords can improve specific aspects of sound quality but at the detriment to other aspects. My takeaway from that comment was that listening to a power cord is vital & that a more expensive power cord is not necessarily better than one that is less expensive. What parts of sound quality someone is seeking to improve would be a important consideration in deciding whether to buy a more expensive power cord at all and also in determining which power cord to choose. |
When putting in place the audio system, hearing aminute difference that seems bigger of what it is a REGULAR experience in the journey... What matter is a set of listening experiments in mechanical, electrical and the acoustical working dimensions of the audio system.. Forget for a time or forever buying and plugging upgrading piece of gear...Especially cables... Buy one basic good system and think... And study...Create a SET of possible listening experiments... You will buy good cables if you can afford them or basic one, nevermind , but you will never throw your money for minute difference gain with costlier cable... Acoustic is key not cable...But difference in cable is an EVIDENCE for my ears.... It is aminute one though... I will never pay for very costly cable passed a few hundred bucks.. By the way i modify all my cables at low cost with my own devices... Why buying when you can do it? |
@vanson1 - probably because they know that most people buying expensive gear will have their own preferences for cables and may already have some very expensive cables already, so why add a lot more money to the price just to include expensive cables that might not even get used? That's why these companies all include those black generic cords and cables so if you don't have something already, you can at least get it up and running till it's replaced with something better. |
Naysayers seem to have some kind of savior complex in their need to try to save cable-believers from buying supposedly overpriced cables. But nobody is twisting their arm, and as already pointed out, there is a large number of companies that offer 30-day free trials. Arrange to have 3 or 4 in your price bracket in house at the same time, and let the testing begin. If you hear something significant, or think you hear something (which amounts to the same thing), then buy away, if not, don't. It's as simple as that. If possible during testing I'd recommend people ensure that it's repeatable--i.e. compare a couple of cables on different days and see if you get the same results. As always, you need to be honest with yourself as to what you're hearing, rather than what you want to hear. |
Maybe my post is the confrontational comments and hostile language? It was not meant that way...so I'll say it this way. I am sure the pod casters know what they talk about. As I am so EE impaired, I was bored. It would be like carrying on a conversation with the fictional character Dr Sheldon Cooper about theoretical physics. I would be bored even listening because I could not participate without sounding slightly dumber than "dumb and dumber". Cables have made a difference in my listening experience. I prepared my experience from breaker to receptacle. I upgraded cables. It was an improvement from a-z. So sorry if I offended anyone. |
Factual..This topic is repetitive and boring. Take it to a vote the I assume, guess, believe, cables make a difference line there, The black is black, white is white, on or off, line is here. Be happy, move on !
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I just listened to 20 minutes of the podcast and I think you need to be an engineer to understand what they are talking about. They are obviously tube amp advocates. I wonder what actually sounds better a tube amp or a solid state? I know when I was listening to a pair of SALK Song 3 Encore's at the RMAF, Jim Salk demoed them through a pair of tube mono blocks. They did sound warm. There must be a reason why Jim chose tube amps to demo them. My son is about to jump into this hobby and so far he thinks he might go with a tube amp. I am not sure what to tell him because I thought tube amps were designed with old fashioned electronics. It is never too late to change my system. |
I recently bought the Pangea AC-14XL power cord for my CDT6000 Transport. (it arrives today) I have Transparent Audio power cables to my 300 watt tube monos. I also have (4) 20amp lines for my equipment. 1 for each amp and 1 for the Transport/DAC and 1 for whatever comes in the future. I tried to listen to the podcast....so f'n boring! I felt like I was listening to those not so funny Canadian comedians from the past ( Bob and ?) Obviously I am not an EE and never plan to be. I do, however listen to music and love great reproduction to my ears. I am probably too critical as I do not have $17000 speaker cables, etc. My system costs less tha $16000....but I did spend around $1500 on cables from beginning to end (excludes the dedicated install). I used to think cables could not be so important but as I upgraded I found they did help improve sound. Some big improvements...though I did not use crap cables back in the day ( ex. AudioQuest Ruby interconnects and Straightwire digital. I have other cables like Acoustic Zen and Kimber to go to for comparison.) I currently use Audio Art middle of the line throughout and find them pleasing. I also have 2 Adcom 555 high current SS amps. I think that amps need the power from the wall therefore the dedicated lines and cables. Got nothing else to add. Just stating cables in the system did improve sound. Maybe AC cables can help feed the beasts that feed the speakers (4 ohm load Maggie 3.7s) Still happy at home listening to the best system my pocket book could afford.
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In my house of stereo with its own dedicated power feed and zero in home interference, expensive power cables have made no discernable difference in sound. On the other hand, expensive interconnect and speaker cables have made a very noticeable difference. Since many people state their power cables make a difference, my conclusion is that it likely depends on what kind of electrical feed and interferences you have. |
"Shorter version of this: Use shielded power cords."... Of known inductance and capacitance. It's no use these guys telling us that capacitance and inductance are the reasons power cables sound different. Two cables each of known capacitance and inductance will sound the same. Buy those values you think are good for your system. And what about the RF picked up by the 10 miles of power cabling between the power station and your home. And the cabling in your home from the meter to the listening room wall socket.? Even if there is an effect, the last 6 feet of cable will impart FAR less of it than the previous 10 miles, much of it at way higher voltage. Ho hum |
