Am i missing something without a power conditioner?

My system has all digital source components (stream Tidal on a Windows10 Pro machine, music server and CD/SACD transport) and external DACs.  When I upgraded from a Furman power conditioner to a PS Audio P10 power regenerator (which removes most of the "distortion" in the AC power), I noticed an immediate improvement in the SQ from my DAC.

I can't speak to if improved power would improve a system with analog sources, but I suspect it would be a good upgrade for that as well.

does the Elgar give you any protection for surge, like a close lightning strike?

Yes.

Maybe i will put a dedicate 15a circuit for my cd player just for the hell of it. But as of right now i cant see me spending about 4-5 grand in used Shunyata conditioners not including about 2 grand in power cords. Seriously my system sounds crystal clear. 

Maybe its due to my Shunyata Sigmas and King Cobra cx power cords? I dont know.... But i really believe i will have no cleaner sound than i have now to actually hear a difference. 

Btw ...I dont even have a dedicated 15a circuit for my cd player and Krell B&W Bass Alignment filters. I have 1 Dedicated 20a circuit with a 4 outlets that i plug my Krell FPB 600 and my ARC Ref 6 preamp. 

lak.... Il tell you the Gods honest truth. I was really listening to my system to hear if i really need a conditioner. The sound seems so clean and so pure that i could not imagine how cleaner my system could actually sound. I really think it would be a very big waste of money as of now. I really can not see my system sounding any better and more cleaner than now even with the best conditioner there is. 

@tattooedtrackman, I have a Shunyata Denali 2000t that I have tried on my Plinius SA Reference amp. Although it did not have a negative effect on the amp, it also did nothing positive that I could detect.
On the other hand, I did hear an improvement with my Transport and Dac plugged into the Denali 2000t and/or Preamp.

aalenik ....That is exactly what i heard also from alot of people. That putting a conditioner on a power amp is like putting a condom on it? Now ive read alot of good reviews about the Shunyata Denali 2000t conditioner for HC amps. I too honestly dont know. And being that i want to find one used you can forget about demoing it.                                                                                                                                                                                                        billshenefelt... Yes thats exactly right !!!

O yes, the Hurricane cord for my amp goes straight into the wall. 
Jim Heckman

Especially for amps, it can be a good idea to check with the manufacturer. Some have definite views about using power conditioners with their products.  Otherwise, I've just gotten clear improvement installing an AQ Hurricane HC cord to my Aesthetix amp. But there are a lot of good wires out there. 
Jim Heckman

boa_constrictor

Power conditioning (AC voltage regulator and RF noise eliminator) is a good thing to have provided:

1- the AC power your utility supplies is not stable and not clean ....

How do you know if the power supplied is stable or not?

I use a vintage analog meter made by WIZ (Power Line Monitor) whose needle will tell me how the power is being supplied ...

When the power supplied from your wall socket is very stable, there is no detectable benefit by using a power conditioner.

There's a lot more to quality AC than simply stable voltage. In fact, power factor is at least as important, and is the reason that many systems benefit from power conditioning.

i use a Furman PL-8C. it has a big torroidal tranny
the power in me hood is suspect but seems stable and clean. we do not tax the power here at all. my non-audiphile system of MacBook Pro and LSR 305s sounds very good, noise floor is non-existent and black. I do run a reclocker for the USB into a PreSonus DAC.
everything is plugged into the furman and the system is protected and fed RFI free and regulated power.
if nothing else, i feel better for using the Furman. I lived somewhere that had terrible power and lost a nice Yamaha Nat Sound reciever twice in 6 months....

Missing something? Probably yes, a lower noise level. Depends how good are your power supplies in your system and how much noise filtering are they doing. I don’t see what difference can make the power cord, the noise still goes through.

In my case I use a Furman PST-8DIG and I clearly noticed complete silence under no load using Marantz SR5008 and 7008 receivers. Plasma TV is making way less hi frequency noise. The filter inside is working even if doesn't look more than a power bar.

AudioTroy.....Richard Grey was the worst component I've ever had in my system....  Ruined the sound...couldn't wait to get it out.  (Ayre/Vandersteen)

As I said in other forum, my experience was at first  with passive AC filters. First with Lessloss, Acoustic Revive, Bybee (two of them). 
When I tried the Torus AVR16 in which I connected my whole system incl the tubed mono blocs Air Tight ATM3, this has been « end of the game » for me.
 Dynamics, silence, transparency, images in all dimensions, music flows very naturally in the room...
You just have to be be carefull dimensioning the transfo. In Europe, Toris doesn’ sell their balanced models, but if you are in USA this is a possibility you can explore.
My 2 cents 

PS : another thing to consider if you don’t want to « miss something » is the Total Contact. It is a contact enhancer that is really (I mean Really) efficient. I won’t say more because the topic can be polemic.

@erik_squires

Won’t disagree about power cords, Eric, but my milage has differed, if just a little. I heard a small difference, or thought I did, but markedly less than with the isolation transformers, where the difference was obvious.

But bang for buck? Nossirree. I would buy them, if I didn’t have a better solution already, somewhat after my third premium MC cartridge. And the big Koetsus DO make a significant difference, no "thought I did" about it.

I use a Bryston BIT20 isolation transformer for all my equipment BUT the amplifiers.  I have 130w. tube monoblocks which each have a pair of 7"X3" storage caps.  They suck up power and apparently don't like being plugged into the transformer.  The tube bias voltage drops from 110 to 85 when do that and loses power output.  The storage caps require Synergistic Research 8 amp fuses rather than the rated 5 amp cheap fuse in order not to blow on turn-on due to the huge storage caps. 

The manufacturer of my amps does plug his amps into his isolation transformer(s).  He uses a pair of transformers double the size of mine so apparently they can handle it.  I have heard that most power conditioners are not favorably used with large power amps, especially with large caps. 

Never heard a power cord to make a difference. 

The Furman power conditioners with SMP are the only one's I would trust to a high power amplifier like that, for these reasons:

1. Rock solid lightning protection
2. Line noise cleanup starts low, around 3kHz. Most conditioners start in the 100kHz
3. No current limiting
4. They sound good. 

I know that there's a major crowd at Audiogon who will go absolutely crazy with my first sentence, and you may disagree. I'm only pointing out my personal point of view. 

Best,


E

Yes, you do. An Equitech 2Q; A Symetrically Balanced toroidal transformer is what I suggest you audition as an excellent ‘long term’ investment in your listening pleasure. Incredibly simple and efficient with science that forms an absolutely sensible approach to AC power noise reduction. Take some time in their website and learn why some of the most demanding and refined research labs;as well as recording,mastering and production facilities and live music and theatre venues use Equitech. They can sometimes be found used however most purchasers keep them as their effectiveness, efficiency and rock solid durability are legendary.

Re-read what Atmasphere said. He is an expert, and electronics is his field.

Industrial is always better than commercial, and commercial is always better than audiophile. Tradeoffs are cost, convenience, and noise.

I installed overlarge Plitron medical isolation transformers. They sell to the public. I compared four conditions: (1) factory power cords into dedicated 20 amp lines; (2) factory power cords into isolation transformer; (3) exotic power cords into dedicated 20 amp lines; and (4) exotic power cords into isolation transformer. (Statisticians will recognize a 2x2 factorial experiment.)

Results were: (4) = (2) > (3) > (1). That is, an isolation transformer is better than an exotic power cord, and further, eliminates the need for one.

When the electrical inspector came to examine my installaton, he said that he had never seen cleaner power, even at a power station.

That said, if I didn’t already use overlarge medical isolation transformers, and power supplies full of heavy iron (100 kg of chokes, actually), I would immediately go out and buy an Elgar, based on Ralph’s recommendation.

But of course, you can spend your money elsewhere.

Power conditioning (AC voltage regulator and RF noise eliminator) is a good thing to have provided:

1- the  AC power your utility supplies is not stable and not clean;

2- it must have capability to supply at least double (more is better) the current your system draws during listening.

How do you know if the power supplied is stable or not?

I use a vintage analog meter made by WIZ (Power Line Monitor) whose needle will tell me how the power is being supplied. 
 
This one here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/RCA-WV-120A-AC-POWER-LINE-MONITOR-METER-Vintage-works-perfectly/15301646919...

When the power supplied from your wall socket is very stable, there is no detectable benefit by using a power conditioner.

Important: the power conditioner I use not only supplies very stable AC voltage (1% regulation) but also have a very good RFI eliminator. 

How do I know whether there is lots of noise coming from the power line? I use a noise sniffer like this one made by Audio Prism.

http://www.audioprism.com/noisesniffer.html

Regarding the capability of the power conditioner, in my case I use one capable of supplying 50A while my system draws from 8 to 13A while listening. 

Also, my electricity is supplied by a 3 phase system and I use one phase to plug refrigerator, microwave, washing machine etc.

The other phase I use for air conditioning and the third phase for my audio system and lightning which are all using LEDs now.

How do I select the phase for my audio system? I plug the analog meter and watch for some time which one is more stable.

So, the question is do I notice any improvement by inserting the power conditioner in my system? The truth is, I don't, since the power I get from the utility is very stable.

But I leave it there anyway since it protects my system when there is an over voltage situation (very rare) or under voltage situation (also very rare).

Also it cleans the power from noise coming from the power line and that is good.

Didn't read all the posts so hopefully I'm not repeating someone. If possible, I would add another dedicated line just for the amp. While you are at it, I would have a separate line for your analog equipment and a separate line for your digital equipment as well. Then I would decide about the power conditioner. That being said, I have always found power conditioners to help in my room, but the separate lines will make a huge difference on their own.
Good listening

Maybe I am not very bright but I do not see how putting an expensive 3 foot wire between a wall jack connected with likely 20 to 50 feet of 12 or 14 gauge Romex cable to a box with two low cost circuit breakers then thru many feet of aluminum cable to a transformer could be expected to do anything over almost any cable unless it is replacing too light a gauge cable with lousy connectors.   If one were to put a device, like a regenerator or at least a power conditioner to control spikes and dips in the line power between the wall outlet and the expensive cable, I can see where it may be of some benefit to have a better connection from such a clean source rather than the power coming from a line transformer to your wall outlet. 

aalenik ..Yes i am looking into the Shunyata Denali 2000t for my preamp and cd player. I dont think i want to put my amp on a power conditioner.

initforthemusic ..Yes that is what i would like to do is try it out in my system first with a return option. 

@tattooedtrackman. A good dealer should sell you a Power Conditioner with a 7 day return option. Mine did and it didn't go back. That was quite a few years ago. Not only better sound but better picture on TV. Made SD like HD.

Hopefully your dealer will do this.

@uberwaltz

assuming I obviously am tone deaf and would not know hifi if it whacked me around the side of the head!

I assume no such thing. <vbg> == Very Big Grin == Humor. Can't say I share your general taste in music but sometimes I rock out with Led Zeppelin, Queen, The Who... and sundry other retirees. Tommy "Underture" is one of my reference tracks. Next year will mark the 40th anniversary of that (TFIC) exalted status. TFIC = Tongue Firmly In Cheek.

Cassettes are terrible vis a vis almost any other media. Mechanically it cannot be otherwise. I fail to see the point of recent enthusiasm. In the studio, we referred to them as "crappettes". 

Taking parts of a post is an online hazard and one I'm willing to risk. I try to take enough so as to not change the context. What someone types is not always what they meant and the writer cannot fault subsequent users if the meaning was misconstrued.

Since we're bitching, far too often some late comer has not read the entire thread and chimes in unprimed and half-cocked.

PAX

@atmasphere , does the Elgar give you any protection for surge, like a close lightning strike?

If not, what would be your suggestion to use along with the Elgar?

See there YOU go making a generalization about cassettes and then assuming I obviously am tone deaf and would not know hifi if it whacked me around the side of the head!
Granted there ARE a number of poor tape offerings but that can be said about EVERY medium tbh.

Taking again part of somebodys post and quoting just that one tiny part changes the entire meaning and context of said post. A very bad habit that quite a number do around here.

And FWIW on nearly every comment I make about equipment or tweaks (unless I forget) I will state in my system, in my room and to my ears, obviously EVERYBODY else will have differing results.

there really is no point ANYBODY making any recommendations

Pretty much sums it. In ancient times, a recommendation from someone whose system I'd heard and judgement I trusted would carry some heft. Your system gives you a slight uptick but "Sublime even on cassette" skotches it.<vbg>

A large problem is naiveté and owner enthusiasm for the latest and greatest which they of course own. The cost of my system wouldn't cover the tax on many, but no one who has ever heard it [or any far more costly predecessor] has failed to make complimentary comments about the precision, musicality and emotion. 

A miniscule proportion of posters have any iota of a musical reference other than HiFi and even then their reference is that it sounds better than their laptop, iJunk or smartphone. Even then some play severely bitrate limited incoherent MP3s and rave about the sonics.

After decades of being an audio recluse, recent auditions of popular/well reviewed/very expensive gear has left me non-plussed. An advantage of the modern era is stores can pull down almost anything. When I cannot distinguish multiple backing vocal tracks or piano solo instrument from tracking piano in a different studio, there is something seriously flawed in the playback. These demo's are supposedly optimized in single systems rooms. A great system draws the listener into the music. None did. Quite the opposite. I just wanted to turn it off.

in evaluating, they must be as rigorous as possible in establishing baseline conditions. It's patently worthless to insert one system, play for a while, then insert another and play different source material. My recommendation is to have a library of reference tracks, note ambient and electrical conditions,  play the system for N minutes with the same 'warm up' disc while out of the room. Only then evaluate, making notes all the while. Rinse and Repeat for additional units.

The most that anyone reading here should infer is that power conditioning MAY be beneficial and they MUST evaluate for themselves in their own system, preferably with multiple devices.

Then Ieales
By your thought process there really is no point ANYBODY making any recommendations then?
Makes me wonder why we are even commenting on this thread.

Surely part of the process is for readers to base an opinion of what they MIGHT expect ?
If say 95% of respondents state they had similar results with product X then it would be a safe bet to assume you would as well. Of course you could be in the unlucky 5% but sometimes you take that chance.
I base my purchases of peer reviews, recommendations, popularity and a good dose of common sense.

I forgot to mention that power conditioners often have multiple circuits fit with different filters [and manufacturer twaddle to accompany].

The 5300 has two 'Regular' and 1 'High' current circuits. One  Regular switched and the other not. The Regulars are recommended for TVs, preamps, CD, etc. and the High ostensibly for Amps and Subs.

FWIW, my PrimaLuna 5 sounds best when connected to the Regular direct rather than High current outlet. OTOH, the NuPrime ST-10 loves the High current outlet. The PL5 has a much simpler higher voltage, lower current PS than the ST-10.

Bottom line is not only will power conditioners themselves have varying effects, various circuits therein, if fit, may react in audible ways with the load device power supply.

I tried the AQ N 1000 recently, and could not discern any difference with or without it in the system.  Hope YMV.

Tattloe iam planning to connect my Dac, transport, CD player , and preamp. Lak Iam looking into the niagara 5000 n thunder pc....or maybe start with niagara 1000...

@uberwaltz - 

Fan Boy Prattle?
So one is to assume that we include your recommendation of the Panamax in the same category then ieales?

Absolutely. I stated I installed a Panamax and it was a significant upgrade. Other devices were better and worse. AND the user MUST audition anything.

As I've mentioned elsewhere, systems are as individual as a fingerprint. Identical systems in different rooms can sound vastly different. ALL components MUST be auditioned in situ. Device specifics are next to worthless in an absolute context.

Ralph, very few real audiophiles want an industrial, discontinued power regenerator, especially one that would or might need service from a company that really doesn’t care about the consumer market way too impractical.

The Elgars I mentioned are not regenerators. Plus you can get them cheap, and service isn’t that hard- we’ve serviced a number of them and so has Michael Percy (known for selling high end precision parts).

Here’s one that can do 1KVA:

https://www.ebay.com/p/Elgar-6006B-Series-6000b-AC-Line-Conditioner-XLNT/841727168?iid=263635111143&...

The thing is, they are so much better than anything offered to high end audio that essentially the ’high end audio’ stuff is roundly embarrassed.

Of course you can’t know that if you haven’t experienced it. Sort of like trying to convince a 4-year old the value of brushing their teeth.

A passive conditioner can’t really do the job. The problems you are dealing with is of course spikes and high frequency noise, most of which is easy to filter, but also you have harmonics of the AC line frequency (distortion), DC on the line, and finally the raw AC voltage.

The 5th harmonic (300Hz) is known to be particularly troublesome (it is caused by transformers like those on power poles that are loaded past about 50% of their capacity). It causes power transformers to become mechanically noisy and run hotter, causes power rectifiers to become noisier and causes a reverse force to appear in synchronous motors (used in turntables and tape machines). Fluke Instruments published a paper on this over 25 years ago. Its not like its anything new, but most ’high end audio’ conditioner manufacturers won’t even know what you’re talking about if you bring it up. You can see though that just using an isolation transformer as part of your passive scheme can introduce harmonics if you load it too heavily!

That takes a bit of magnetics (very large chokes) to filter passively! There is an attendant voltage loss- so that technique is impractical.

DC on the line (often caused by electric heaters running at less than full power) causes transformers to become mechanically noisy due to core saturation. This also means their output waveform is distorted, which is not good for rectifiers. This is of course cheap to remove by itself.

Finally, if the line voltage sags, amplifier power can be severely curtailed and distortion higher. This can mess with the regulator overhead in preamps and sources like CD players. Modulation on the AC line can result in added distortion. Again this is something that no passive can sort out.

To add insult to injury, most passive units force the user to use the power cord supplied by the passive conditioner. Obviously the conditioner has to get power, but if it can’t compensate for the losses in the power cord, it isn’t helping.

This is why the Elgar is so good at what it does- it deals with all these problems. That no-one in high end audio has chosen to use their techniques is embarrassing. It would be expensive, but not if an audiophile is already willing to pay $1000 for a power cord or flush $$$$ away on ’conditioners’ that don’t do anything.

• @tattooedtrackman, yes there is a lot to consider. I believe if you have good components you will benefit from upgraded power cords.
  

Ultimately you will also benefit from some type of good power conditioning. Here is one video on YouTube, be patient and put up with the beginning drab of Kevin Deal, once the video moves into his store he does a good job of explaining the need for power conditioning. A good sounding system begins with clean power and/or can’t be achieved totally without clean power.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxFFfw7K5rw

@tattooedtrackman fear not you’ve not wasted a cent. The effect of improving the AC to your equipment is cumulative. From the breaker box all the way to the IEC on the component, upgrades at every step can pay dividends.

I will not not offer any opinion on which conditioner might suit you best, you can look at my system to see what I use. However I will offer that if you do get a conditioner you can further improve things by tweaking the feet and base it sits on. Conditioners and AC supplies in general are susceptible to vibration induced interference and using solutions to deal with this will pay back. In my case adding a Marigo sub platform under my conditioners was a very positive improvement. It’s certainly not the case that you just want to slap them on the floor and forget about it

sorry if this only adds to your confusion but the tweaks and anal attention to every detail are what makes this hobby fun

@jayctoy which model Niagara are planing on trying?

Fan Boy Prattle?
So one is to assume that we include your recommendation of the Panamax in the same category then ieales?

I also feel like i wasted thousands and thousands of dollars upgrading all my power cords, and still need a power conditioner. So confused about this. 

This is getting more and more complicated the more i read. 

In 2003, we add a Panamax 5300 and without a doubt, perhaps the most significant system upgrade going back to the 60’s.

We auditioned other makes and models. Some were better but much more money and some were not so good for more and less money. Details here  http://www.ielogical.com/Audio/#PowerConditioning

As everything HiFi must integrate within a system, your mileage will vary so audition all devices. Take owner model specific advice as fan boy prattle.

Bonne chance.

jayctoy what are you planning to plug into the Niagara ?

Tattoo what you are missing is low noise floor to let the music pass thru with clarity, black background , speed, more 3D , why I am planning to get Niagara series and their new power cables, stormy series....If am not happy just return them, music direct has 60 days trial...

There are a lot of CPT users on there forums for sure, it is how I heard of them and then bought one based on research and recommendations.
I am sure they are not the last word by far but for $1500 for a unit that could handle everything I run it was worth a test.
Biggest holdup is that CPT are pretty backed up with orders so may not be a quick purchase and delivery.