Affordable Grounding

That's not how grounding works.  That's an alligator clip, a piece of wire and a wood block (an insulator).  

Your Nordost component is (should be) grounded through it's power cord to your power outlet, which in turn should be connected (bonded) to the grounding of your home.  That's usually at or near the electrical panel.  

Sorry, guys.  My mistake.  I forgot to add a disclaimer that this post was not for flat-earthers, naysayers or cable-deniers.

Thanks for the excellent overview Mike.

Anyone in this hobby knows we have all thrown money away chasing something.  The best money I ever spent was in having an electrician put in a dedicated line for my stereo equipment. Next best money was in buying a grounding box and driving a grounding rod into the ground outside the house and then running all my equipment through it. Period. The black background is stark and eerily quiet. I probably have $3,000 in these two things and I would never do it any other way if excellent sound is the goal. Just my .02

I don’t know what the wooden tube does, but I concur with @bolivarjoy, I had a dedicated line from the panel with true earth ground rod and hospital grade pure copper AC outlets installed. Digital source, 20 wpc 300b/845 SET tube amp and high sensitivity Klipsch Forte speakers.  The dedicated line dropped the noise floor to the floor! Also powers the router, dedicated switch box, and LP supplies.

I could always hear transformer hum through the speakers in between tracks or with quiet passages.  Tried DC filters, USB filters, lower gain signal tubes, and even minus 10dB attenuation, still hum.  Worse some days than others, quietist late at night. Once the dedicated line installed, transformer hum virtually gone, I no longer can hear from seat.
 

Second best upgrade was a DDC between a fanless mini PC streaming source and the DAC, darker background, larger soundstage and way better stereo images. Together with dedicated line, I might actually be done…with this system anyway. Have four others I can tinker with. 

Lots of discussion of these devices, primarily DIY, here:

DIY Ground Box Thread

I haven't tried nor do I advocate these tweaks but if one were to do so, I'm guessing the improvement would be more substantial with one of these. A relative bargain compared to similar offerings from Nordost and Entreq at 10 to 20 times less cost.

Ground Box for Sale

A'gon user @mahgister has written here previously about devices such as this, IIRC.

Yes.  Best results(for me) was installing a ground rod just outside the wall, running CU cable through wall to my dedicated AC outlet(hospital Grade) ground connection,  then ALL AC power to my system plugged in to that receptacle.

Write Synergistic Research on it in crayon, charge $600 for it and whole-heartedly recommend at least 3 for best results, and the cable sniffers will follow you to the ends of the earth.

Gents,

Grounding circuits perform several functions and each has its requirements in terms of design. Safety is a number one requirements, and for this the ability to pass a fault current to a ground reference (earth) instead of through your body is the primary design goal. This "design" however effective for safety does not mean it's a good RF (radio frequency) ground. Safety grounds require a good low resistance path to ground; RF grounds require a good low impedance path to ground. As the RF frequency rises, your reactance (impedance) of the ground circuit rises. For your "black" background, you want to ensure the best low impedance ground for your equipment, i.e. very large gauge ground conductor or flat copper strap to a ground rod, shortest path possible from equipment, and use a termination ground (single point) from all your gear. No special stuff here, my studio grounding system is less than $200 worth of materials. Noise mitigation from your power line is a whole other science I'm sure has been discussed in length - I use brute force L/C filters and isolation transformers, but the grounding considerations are the same. (In the "old days" we used motor-generators for clean AC). 

The "signal ground" tactic to a DIY "signal grounding box" worked very well on my system. The ground leads buried in the grounding box material (fine quartz sand mixed with fine graphite powder) are soldered to RCA connectors which are then plugged into unused RCA connections on the back of the CD transport and the DAC. Each component had its own dedicated grounding box.As per a suggestion I heard from Caelin Gabriel of Shunyata in an old interview I grounded only two source components. This instantly sucked noise out of my system - not subtle. The system was already on a dedicated line, so there was still enough noise left in the system that grounding boxes made an audible difference.

Just be careful not to have two different grounding rods in your house's electrical system that can cause issue with grounding and potential difference between the two grounding rods, and poses a safety issue as well. many places its against code to do this so check your local codes before modifying your electrical system.  

Just be careful not to have two different grounding rods in your house's electrical system that can cause issue with grounding and potential difference between the two grounding rods, and poses a safety issue.

^ this

@bolong   Good reference.

‘Signal ground’ vs ‘Earth ground’ – aka Chassis ground – aka Safety ground.

Signal ground originates within the component itself.   Earth ground is a safety configuration for the household circuitry.    Regarding audio, electrical noise/hash migrates to either type of ground for different reasons.   Reducing that electrical noise/hash results in better SQ – with a blacker background.

Caelin Gabriel discusses Signal vs Earth ground starting at 19 min 20 sec in this video. 

this video.

Importance of the EGC Equipment Grounding Conductor.

Go to 23:26 in the video. If the equipment uses the EGC never defeat it.

Go to 26:00 in the video EGC connection to chassis.

Gabriel explains the importance of the EGC and how if there is a Hot to chassis ground fault the ground current will cause the breaker in the electrical panel to trip open. Not because of Mother Earth, because the EGC is connected to the Service Entrance Neutral conductor in the electrical panel. (Which is connected to the source). That’s the reason the breaker trips open. That’s the circuit.

Drive all the grounds you want if you think Mother Earth improves the sound of your system. Just don’t Lift, defeat, the EGC connection from the chassis of the equipment. If the EGC is lifted, defeated, and there is a hot to chassis ground fault event the branch circuit breaker in the electrical panel will not trip open.

For a test a few years back I connected the Hot wire from a dedicated 20 amp branch circuit, (branch circuit conductors #10awg copper), to a 5/8 in. x 8 ft ground rod. Turned on the 20 amp breaker and it did not trip. Simple Ohms Law. Just to much impedance in the earth for enough current to travel back to the source.

The real hazard.... The ground rod is energized 120V. IF the grass is wet around the rod from rain or a heavy dew and a person or pet walks in close proximity of the HOT 120V ground rod the person or pet could be electrocuted... Step Potential Voltage can kill.

Drive all the ground rods you want... Just don’t lift or defeat the EGC.

Jim

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EDIT:

jea48 said:  ... 08-06-2024 at 07:51pm

For a test a few years back I connected the Hot wire from a dedicated 20 amp branch circuit, (branch circuit conductors #10awg copper), to a 5/8 in. x 8 ft ground rod. Turned on the 20 amp breaker and it did not trip. Simple Ohms Law. Just too much impedance in the earth for enough current to travel back to the source.

Change to:

Just too much resistance in the earth for enough current to travel back to the source.

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This is why I went with Puritan Audio Labs groundmaster: 

....To meet emissions regulations these appliances use their Earth connection as a dumping place for the interference they generate. And with substations often serving hundreds of houses, your HiFi Earth/Ground connection may well be connected to thousands of Earth Line polluting appliances.

Long before the problem of high frequency interference on the Earth Line became as serious as it is today, audiophiles in the know were utilising additional Ground Rods to provide an independent Earth to their HiFi installations. Elegant as this solution may seem, this is a colossally dangerous practice for the vast majority of current installations*. This is because it risks the potentially massive current from any fault between your HiFi and your local substation finding the easiest path to Earth through your HiFi with expensive, and possibly tragic, results! This is why the practice of introducing directly connected supplementary or dedicated HiFi Ground Rods is specifically prohibited by current UK Wiring Regulations. (Except in very specific circumstances). By utilising the Puritan Ground Master the hazards (and illegality) associated with the use of additional HiFi Ground Rods are totally avoided. And this is achieved without compromising the effective route to ground and hence the removal, of undesirable noise disturbance frequencies on the Earth Line. With the Puritan Ground Master used in conjunction with an additional Ground Rod the potentially dangerous route to Earth of mains frequency currents is safely isolated whilst offending noise and disturbance frequencies are permitted a highly efficient, extremely low impedance route to ground ensuring their elimination. * For the past 50 years houses have normally been connected using the Protective Multiple Earth (PME) system, whereby the Neutral Line is bonded to Earth at the substation and at other points along the way and with Neutral and Earth circuits separated at the point of entry to the building. This style of installation provides the greatest dangers if using additional ground rods without connecting though the Ground Master whilst other styles of household Earth connection will still benefit greatly with increased safety and performance.

If our audio room is say 50' away from my service panel and I drive a new rod right outside the audio room, I have to install a bare copper grounding wire from the rod all the way back to the service panel. I forgot the gauge of said wire but it's a big wire you know what I'm talking about! Then you could run smaller ground wires from audio room to the new ground rod? Would this work? 

+1 on the Puritan GroundMaster.

Short Review From Terry London of Stereo Times

If our audio room is say 50' away from my service panel and I drive a new rod right outside the audio room, I have to install a bare copper grounding wire from the rod all the way back to the service panel. I forgot the gauge of said wire but it's a big wire you know what I'm talking about! Then you could run smaller ground wires from audio room to the new ground rod? Would this work? 

08-07-2024 at 08:34am                                                                                                            

Per NEC wire size from the rod to the main electrical service grounding system is #6awg copper. Bare or insulated.

Then you could run smaller ground wires from audio room to the new ground rod?

Ya you could and it would be code compliant, but I'm not sure you would want to. It could, would, cause more harm than good.

 The branch circuit EGC still must not be lifted, defeated, from the equipment.

There is a section in the NEC that allows an Auxiliary Grounding Electrode, Ground Rod, that does not have to tie directly to the electrical service main Grounding Electrode System. (Therein electrical service to Mother Earth Connection.)

Per Code it must connect to the branch circuit EGC. EGC cannot be lifted, disconnected, from the Equipment Ground Bar in the electrical panel.

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Video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gg4wBI7bWgI

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Just a general comment, you do NOT want a separate ground path other than the ground path of the circuit breaker.  This will cause the breaker to no trip in the event of overload and is a massive code violation and fire hazard.  No sane electrician who valued his license would do it.

A dedicated line (perhaps with a dedicated ground) for the box is ideal.

The Puritan Audio Labs groundmaster

system does not recommend the lifting, defeating, of the EGC from the equipment. That would be dangerous.

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Just a general comment, you do NOT want a separate ground path other than the ground path of the circuit breaker. This will cause the breaker to not trip in the event of overload and is a massive code violation and fire hazard.

08-07-2024 at 10:58am

Ground fault current will take any path that is provided back to the source. It is non discriminating. IF the current exceeds the breaker handle rating the breaker will trip.

As for an audio system multiple ground paths back to the electrical service grounded conductor, the grounded neutral conductor, will cause more harm than good to the sound quality of the system.

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I have a high efficiency tube SET and horn system. I found that “properly” utilizing a complete Puritan grounding system gave me excellent results.

Specifically:

1. Started with a PM 156 conditioner

2. Grounded the 156 to a dedicated City Master

3. For components, added a Route Master and grounded every component.

4. Grounded the Route Master with its own City Master

Hope that helps.

Check out Russ Andrews he has some great grounding products that work with good instructions and explainations. All different levels of grounding at Russandrews.com

Another good read on this subject…

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/grounding-cable-gauge-size

@jea48 

I’m no wordsmith and post using a phone, but isn’t that what I said?

The guys at Audio Science Forum (or whatever the name is) tend to be a tad pedantic and are a little to into measuring things that really can’t be measured completely, but they have a great video explaining the issues with multiple ground paths.

ill see if I can find it.

@lrlacosse  in his post above, mentions the same thing I was asking about. The rod outside the audio room grounding to audio room outlets wouldn't be to code and also I don't know if any benefit could be found?  It would have to be grounded back to main panel correct? 
 

I want to install a sub panel in audio room is what I'm gonna do. Using the heaviest gauge wire possible to main panel. Even then using another grounding rod it would still have to ground at main panel! A silver rod, How much for one of them?  

I left much unsaid about my situation.  The home I have been living in for the last 28 years is a small cottage type structure, 20'x20' built in 1960.  The builders were NOT professional contractors by any means.  Nothing was built to current codes/standards.  I don't even think the used a basic level much.  Outlets are all two prong - no ground to the old panel and NO outside ground rod that I can see.  That is why I installed a ground rod and quality three prong outlet/receptical for my audio/TV system.  I have a digital antenna on my roof right above where I sit to listen to music and watch TV and the pole is aluminum.  Scares the bejesus out of me every time a thunder storm comes through.

@davetheoilguy ,

Just a general comment, you do NOT want a separate ground path other than the ground path of the circuit breaker. This will cause the breaker to not trip in the event of overload and is a massive code violation and fire hazard.

08-07-2024 at 10:58am

IF the EGC (Equipment Grounding Conductor) is Not lifted, disconnected, then even if a separate ground rod is installed it will not prevent the branch circuit breaker from tripping in the event of a ground fault event where the current exceeds the handle rating of the branch circuit breaker.

Per NEC you can install an Auxiliary Grounding Electrode provided the EGC is not lifted, disconnected. The Aux ground rod shall be connected to the EGC.

Problem is there will be a difference of potential, voltage, between the EGC and the Aux ground rod. Sometimes enough of a voltage to cause ground loop hum. Just like the shield of a CATV cable providers coax cable when it is not properly bonded to the main electrical service grounding system.

So it has to be EGC right? Wrong! It’s the dedicated ground rod. So what usually happens is the user audiophile lifts, disconnects, the EGC. Does it solve the ground loop or noise problem on the system? Probably... So would disconnecting the dedicated ground rod... Which is safer?

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250.54 Auxiliary Grounding Electrodes.

 

One or more grounding electrodes shall be permitted to be connected to the equipment grounding conductors specified in 250.118 and shall not be required to comply with the electrode bonding requirements of 250.50 or 250.53(C) or the resistance requirements of 250.53(A)(2) Exception, but the earth shall not be used as an effective ground-fault current path as specified in 250.4(A)(5) and (B)(4).

 

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Exception, but the earth shall not be used as an effective ground-fault current path as specified in 250.4(A)(5) and (B)(4).

That’s because the earth is not a good low impedance, resistance, conductor.

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(5) Effective Ground-Fault Current Path

Electrical equipment and wiring and other electrically conductive material likely to become energized shall be installed in a manner that creates a low-impedance circuit facilitating the operation of the overcurrent device or ground detector for impedance grounded systems. It shall be capable of safely carrying the maximum ground-fault current likely to be imposed on it from any point on the wiring system where a ground fault occurs to the electrical supply source. The earth shall not be considered as an effective ground-fault current path.

https://up.codes/s/general-requirements-for-grounding-and-bonding

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……it is painfully obvious that some people even the same ones still do not understand nor want to understand the difference between grounding electively and grounding your components where you have continuity between them. 

 I guess I'm just an ignorant old man.  

I have a high efficiency tube SET and horn system. I found that “properly” utilizing a complete Puritan grounding system gave me excellent results.

Specifically:

1. Started with a PM 156 conditioner

2. Grounded the 156 to a dedicated City Master

3. For components, added a Route Master and grounded every component.

4. Grounded the Route Master with its own City Master

Hope that helps.

08-10-2024 at 07:39am

Sounds like the way to go to me... A near by lightning strike may not like it though. It would rather you install a ground rod and connected the Grand Master to it.

Just remember the City Master nor the Grand Master is a substitute for an EGC. They have entirely two different functions.

The design of the City Master and the Grand Master is not designed to carry ground fault current back the source. The EGC is.

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@lrlacosse said: 08-14-2024 at 12:50pm

House was "built in 1960."

"Outlets are all two prong - no ground to the old panel and NO outside ground rod that I can see. That is why I installed a ground rod and quality three prong outlet/receptacle for my audio/TV system."

My response:

The ground rod does squat for any electrical safety protection. None! You would be better off with no ground than the ground rod you have. The Pass Labs INT-25 Integrated Amp, Jay’s Audio CDT2-MK3, and the Denafrips Pontus 12th DAC, would probably sound better too without the ground rod.

Just going from memory electrical outlets in houses in 1960 where two wire only. That was code then, again going from memory... They are Grandfathered in now.

Just a guess all your audio and TV equipment is fed from one 120V 15 amp convenience outlet branch circuit. I assume the floor in the room is wood, or wood covered by carpet. You have a better chance winning the lottery than receiving an electrical shock by touching a ground faulted piece of equipment. Like I said the ground rod provides no protection from an electrical shock either. What it does do is provide a path for lightning in the event of a nearby lightning strike entering your home and damaging your equipment. I would remove the ground rod wire from the house entirely.

As for this:

"no ground to the old panel and NO outside ground rod that I can see."

My response:

In 1960 electrical services were grounded, connected to Mother Earth. There more than likely is a ground rod. Usually they are driven 4" to 6" below grade.

How about the water line that enters the house? Copper or galvanized steel pipe?

Do you have a multimeter to check AC voltages?

Jim

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Jim, Thanks for the advice> I am not an electrician.  This structure is resting on blocks and has no foundation.  Small crawl space and yes, it is possible the ground is on the steel water pipe.  All wood construction.  Two 20 amp circuits.

"Like I said the ground rod provides no protection from an electrical shock either. What it does do is provide a path for lightning in the event of a nearby lightning strike entering your home and damaging your equipment. I would remove the ground rod wire from the house entirely."

This statement is contradicting.  I want a path for lightning but then you state to remove the ground rod.....?  Please educate me.  Also use a Furman surge protector/conditioner.

Jea48 said:

Like I said the ground rod provides no protection from an electrical shock either. What it does do is provide a path for lightning in the event of a nearby lightning strike entering your home and damaging your equipment. I would remove the ground rod wire from the house entirely.

@lrlacosse said:

This statement is contradicting. I want a path for lightning but then you state to remove the ground rod.....? Please educate me. Also use a Furman surge protector/conditioner.

NO you do not want to provide a path for lightning to damage your expensive audio equipment. That is what your dedicated ground rod could do in the event of a nearby lightning strike.

lrlacosse said:

Also use a Furman surge protector/conditioner.

I doubt the Furman will protect from lightning. Contact Furman support and ask them. Tell them that you do not have the Furman plugged into a grounded wall outlet. The branch circuit wiring does not have the required EGC (Equipment Grounding Conductor) for the Furman to operate as designed to protect from a lightning transient. Tell them you have a dedicated, isolated, ground rod that is not connected to the electrical service main System Ground, Grounding Electrode System. Please post back what they tell you...

You don’t need to remove the ground rod. Just remove the wire from the ground rod into your house.

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Back to if your electrical service is grounded:

Yes the steel water pipe is considered a grounding electrode if it is buried in the earth at least 20ft or more. Is your water meter in a pit accessible by a man hole cover? How do you stop the water line from freezing in the cold winter months where it is exposed from the earth to entering the heated house in Minnesota? Electric heat tape?

Any way, you should be able to check if the steel water pipe is bonded, connected, to the the electrical panel. You should see a ground clamp on the steel water pipe where it come up out of the earth with a wire connected to the ground clamp that should run to the electrical panel. Do you have a Multimeter?

lrlacosse

You are a true audiophile. You have thousands of dollars invested in audio equipment and live like a hermit. And no doubt you are happy...

Jim

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Ha! Ha!  Just got home.  I am happy.  Happy as a Hermit!!  I do have a multimeter.  Too tired for now. Will update later.

Lawrence From Michigan

Michigan  -  Minnesota   Eh?  What's the diff.. 

Yep, MI, Michigan. My bad...

What's the diff..

Are the winters colder in Michigan?

Jim

Nope. 

Jim,  This house was not built with an access to the crawl space, where the water supply comes up from underground.  This house is a rental, in the back yard of the main house.  My water comes from a buried steel line from the main house in their basement.  I could tear apart a section of the covering but I assume the landlord not like.

So, you are suggesting that no matter an old original ground exist, undo the connection to the dedicated rod I installed?  For safety reasons and audio gear protection?

"I guess I'm just an ignorant old man."

I've been renting this little place for 28 years.  Rent is only $350.00/mo. and that INCLUDES heat and electricity.  If that makes me an ignorant Hermit then so be it.  I have everything I need.  Thanks!

If that makes me an ignorant Hermit then so be it.  I have everything I need.  Thanks!

I never said you were ignorant.

My apologies for using the word, calling you a hermit. It's not the word I should of used. Especially after looking up the definition of the word.

Best regards,

Jim

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The meaning of HERMIT is one that retires from society and lives in solitude especially for religious reasons

I, on the other hand, think that I am getting more and more like a hermit everyday. Except that my desire for solitude and to retire from society has nothing to do with religion.

No offense taken Jim.  I used that term.  Just having fun with this thread.   But also trying to learn something new.

Is there a way to check for the ground on the water pipe without physically looking at it?

Whew!!  A Lot of info here.  Thanks Jim.

My Rental has it's own drop from a pole on a side road, fed to an old panel that uses the round screw-in glass fuses, in the house.  Of course a meter is mounted directly on outside wall first.  

I know where the main water feed from the main house is, coming up from under house inside the bathroom vanity.

My Landlord, long passed, was the person(along with his Father) that built the main house first in 59-60.  Same two prong system.  Mrs. Landlord stayed in the house alone until she had to go to nursing home, where she still is at 94 years old.  I take care of the whole property, thus keeping the rent low.  For some reason their children want nothing to do with the property, but the eldest son is taking care of the $$$.  They are waiting for her passing, then sell the property.  The main house I believe has a ground rod just underneath the meter outside the main house.  So, if they had the sense to install a ground there, I would think they did also at my rental.

I'm not going start removing panels or hire electricians for this old place.  The Son will not either.  They do not want to put $$$ into this rental.  I do all the maintenance on the property.

I will disconnect the new ground and get back to the Forum with my observations.

Thank you for taking the time to share your professional advise.

@lrlacosse said: 08-19-2024 at 06:29am

My Rental has it’s own drop from a pole on a side road, fed to an old panel that uses the round screw-in glass fuses, in the house. Of course a meter is mounted directly on outside wall first.

I misunderstood the statements you posted on 08-16-2024 at 10:08am

This house is a rental, in the back yard of the main house. My water comes from a buried steel line from the main house in their basement.

I’ve been renting this little place for 28 years. Rent is only $350.00/mo. and that INCLUDES heat and electricity.

I took it the electrical power for the rental is fed from the main house. That doesn’t sound like the case. It has its own electrical service fed from the Utility Power Company. Is that correct? The rental power is not fed from the main house. The Landlord pays the utility electric bill for the rental.

My Rental has it’s own drop from a pole on a side road, fed to an old panel that uses the round screw-in glass fuses, in the house. Of course a meter is mounted directly on outside wall first.

If indeed the rental has its own electrical service fed by the Utility Power Company then the electrical service should be grounded. Even in 1960. The steel water pipe should be the Grounding Electrode that is bonded, connected, to the fused electrical panel. Note I said should. Which came first? The electrical service or the steel water pipe? If the electrical service came first then my bet is there is a ground rod for the electrical service. (FWIW, when the water pipe was installed to the rental property it should have been bonded, connected, to the electrical service fuse panel). That doesn’t mean it was...

If you are up to doing a test with your multi meter...

You will probably need a drop cord to extend one the leads of the meter, unless there is a wall outlet close to the fuse panel.

I want you to measure for 120 volt from the HOT contact of a wall outlet to a screw or bare metal part on the two fuse electrical panel. If you have a wall outlet close to the panel you won’t need the drop cord.

Just a guess the old wall duplex receptacles are non polarized, unless they have been replaced since 1960. Not a problem for the test.

The Test:

First, Set multimeter to AC volts auto, or a scale greater that 125Vac. Insert meter probes into the wall outlet or test drop cord to verify you measure 120Vac nominal.

Loosen a screw holding on the fuse panel cover just enough to slide one of the test lead probes of the multimeter under the screw head and slightly tighten down. Just enough pressure to hold the probe in place to make a good contact to the metal fuse panel.

Insert the other meter lead probe into one of the contacts on the wall outlet or receptacle on the drop cord. If it is the HOT ungrounded contact (conductor) you should measure 120Vac nominal. If it does not measure 120V insert the test lead probe into the other contact of the wall outlet or drop cord receptacle. If the electrical service is grounded you will measure 120Vac nominal from one of the two contacts of the wall outlet to the metal fuse panel.

Does the above test guarantee the electrical service is still connected to mother Earth. NO... It tells me the service entrance neutral conductor is bonded, connected, to the fuse metal enclosure. That means the electrical when installed was grounded, connected, to mother earth.

If there is a ground rod it should be outside on the other side of the outside wall where the fuse panel box is located. You should see a #8 solid bare copper wire that goes into the earth. Look for the wire. The ground rod should be close buried a few inches below grade. (Note: #8 solid bare copper wire. Size #8awg copper is from the 1968 NEC. That’s the oldest NEC book I have. Wire can be solid or stranded copper. Usually it’s solid copper).

Post back your results.