Advice needed: It's time for a new DAC

@mbmi I'm glad you love your new DAC!  Rock on! 

Save yourself ALOT of money......you want the musicality of a $10,000 DAC.....I did .  I paid $2750 for the new LAIV Harmony DAC......Read the reviews. Thank me later.

@metaldetektor Thank you!  Yes, I've heard both the MPS-8 AND MPD-8.

 

After listing to so many DACs, more and less expensive, I am ever more convinced that there no DAC's competitive with the MPD-8.  To make it a fair fight, you have to compare it to a good vinyl system as all other digital is a very different sound.

 

One of the dealers I know very well has a Clearaudio Statement V2 and I think this would be a more comparable source. 

To the OP, I suggest you reach out to Bliss Acoustics in Canada. Owner is a gentleman and he carries some amazing stuff, including but not limited to Playback Designs on the digital side.

@bigfatpaulie Really enjoyed your listening notes, thx for sharing!

+1 on Playback Designs...sounds like you heard the MPS-8 if it also has a CD drive?

I've been listening to the latest MPD-8 for an extended home demo and suspect it may be a keeper. And I have a DAC twice the price in the house...

@bigfatpaulie thanks! Will do. 

@audphile1 It's itneresting that you like the Coda so much, even next to big 'ole mono's!  Good luck in your hunt for a DAC and I hope you report back on your findings!

 

@tweak1 I am not using a transport.  I use a Lumin U1 as a streamer. 

Did I miss which transport you have? I just replaced my Audiolab 6000 CDT with a Shanling ET3- amazing= might be your trans more than your dac

I’d love me a pair of DAWs but I think they’re too big for my room. I can imagine how good they are though!

@bigfatpaulie 

I loved the way my system sounded with Pass monos and XP22. I wanted to make a change to 1) reduce the system’s footprint (2 chassis preamp, two amps…too many boxes, too many cables), 2) reduce the heat (the X260.8 are space heaters), simplify my setup WITHOUT sacrifice in sound quality and 3) get rid of the rack in the middle between the speakers without the need to buy a 5m length version of my Nordost Tyr 2 XLRs that I really like to move source components to the side of the room. 
 

I bought the Coda integrated before selling the Pass stack. Wanted to make sure I don’t go backwards in performance of my system. I was completely amazed to have discovered after few weeks of thorough comparison that the Coda hangs right there with the separates! It almost sounds too good to be true but after selling Pass separates and keeping coda I have no regrets. 
Take a look at my system pictures you will see the system layout. 

@hk_fan Thank you!  I am glad to have you along on my DAC journey!

 

@audphile1 There's no laughing from me, just pangs of relatability!  I can completely relate to your situation of regretting selling something and so on. The Sabrina's are wonderful speakers.  I'm not sure if you recall, but I had a pair.  I have nothing but fondness for them.  I feel like it is unusual for someone to go from mono blocks to an integrated unless it was a space issue.  Was that the case with you, or something else?  I'm not familiar with the Coda but I have heard a lot of really, really good things with the 866, especially so with the Sabrina's.  The 866 has, from what I understand, a fantastic DAC.  Do you not find that to the be case?

@bigfatpaulie so I kind of screwed up so don’t laugh…

I had a Bricasti M3 and was using its network card as Roon end point and it sounded not too great. I kind of got pissed off at Bricasti. I bought an Aurender N200 and began using the M3 as DAC only via USB and it sounded excellent but I was still kind of pissed so I sold it. Bought PS Audio DSD MkI which is a really nice musical DAC but I couldn’t get past the high noise floor. I realized I made a mistake selling Bricasti, sold the PS Audio and decided to try Chord Hugo TT2. It’s better than PS Audio but I’m looking to sell it and go back to Bricasti…probably M1 this time.

I had Pass XP-22 driving Pass X260.8 mono amps, into Wilson Sabrina. Sold Pass stack and bought 2 integrated amps: Coda CSib and Boulder 866. Zero regrets. So I had Bricasti M3 and PS Audio with Pass and Coda, and recently borrowed my buddy’s Bricasti M3 to compare with my Chord TT2 in my current setup with Coda and Boulder amps.

I intend to only keep one of these integrated amps so I need a good DAC to figure out what combination I like best.

Cool thread!  Enjoy your new DAC.

That's cool @audphile1 !!  Though, I don't envy the search that lies ahead of you!  I took me MONTHS to settle on one.  Hopfully you find yours faster than I did mine.

If you don't mind me asking (and I am just being nosy here) what do you have currently and what's on your short list?

Good luck with your hunt!

@bigfatpaulie thanks!
I agree the filter is not going to have as much impact on sound as changing a component or incorporating room treatments. And man with the Wilsons they’ll seek you out and kick your butt with good or bad whatever they are fed. So I get how you arrived at the results you’ve shared. thanks again this a timely thread as I’m on a market for a new DAC. 

@audphile1 So full disclosure, I used to own the M1 about 8-9 years ago when I was a headphone user.  I really loved the DAC at the, especially with the HD600's connected directly to the balanced out's.  Because of my fond memory of it, I wanted to audition it again. With this time, I did play with all the filters but the one I settled on was minimum 4.  With that said, I did find the filters offered a generally subtle difference, personally, and the M1 sounds like the M1 regardless of filter setting. 

 

@mclinnguy Yes, I did end up with a more expensive DAC but the PS Audio was also not the cheapest on my list.  Both the ANK and the T+A DAC200 were less money.  The reason I auditioned the PSA was that the dealer that sold me my speakers offered it to as they felt it offers excellent value and was well worth a listen.

 

And you are correct, I noted the error about the PB names after I posted but I couldn't edit my post.  The PBD unit I first saw/demo'd was the MPS-8 (DAC/Player/Streamer in 1 box) as they did not have a MPD-8 on hand.  I did my auditioning using the MPS-8.  The unit I bought is the MPD-8 (DAC only) as I did not want the CD player or streaming functionality.  According to Andreas Koch, who was very kind in answering all my questions, was very clear that as a DAC only the MPD-8 is the better choice, though the units are very close sounding.  Having heard both, I would agree.

Good reviews, thanks for sharing. 

Also, I was hoping PS Audio would address the items you mentioned with the MkII release…I was pretty sure you were talking about MkI the way you described it. Too bad…

Well, take the comments with a grain of salt: the PS Audio mkII retails for $8000

OP’s top two choices here retail for $28,000 ~ $30,000, so once again typically one gets what one pays for, within the context of the law of diminishing returns. 

Clarification question though @bigfatpaulie since you mentioned a "CD Player" appearance, is that not the MPS-8 you have?

(did you all catch that? "grain" of salt? ha ha)

 

@bigfatpaulie quick question on a bricasti…did you experiment with different filters and clock settings? Having it on Linear 0 filter setting may create the impression of what you described. When I had the M3 I used it on Minimum 0, ClockWide. Very natural sound. 
 

Also, I was hoping PS Audio would address the items you mentioned with the MkII release…I was pretty sure you were talking about MkI the way you described it. Too bad…

@bigfatpaulie 

 

Thanks. I have heard several of the DACs you talked about, I have to agree with your assessments. 

Thanks @bigfatpaulie 

good to know 

@audphile1 

 

It is the current MK2.  It was loaned to me by a dealer (In Canada there are PS Audio dealers).

@bigfatpaulie was it the PA Audio DSD mk1 or mk2?

Exactly!  

 

In then end, we all just want to enjoy our music!  :)

@bigfatpaulie

Please keep in mind, if anyone loves one of the DAC’s below, that’s cool. Below are MY OPINIONS. Not fact. We are all different and have different preferences. If you think DAC XYZ is the "best" then good for you, enjoy it!

And I do own one of these DAC’s, but knowing that I still would expect nothing less than someone telling their truth on what they hear. Hey I, and everyone else who owns one of these DAC’s, knows what it sounds like, and what someone else says has no impact on my impressions of it, and it shouldn’t with them also.

Additionally you, with your ears, given a different room, different speakers, different other components, different digital connections/cabling, (perhaps the least preferable one recommended by the manufacturer) would have probably had a completely different outcome.

Thanks! I (and I’m sure others) appreciate it! Sharing listening impressions is what this forum is all about.

Sure @mclinnguy .  I took  A LOT of notes when I auditioned but here's a very brief summery.  

 

Please keep in mind, if anyone loves one of the DAC's below, that's cool.  Below are MY OPINIONS.  Not fact.  We are all different and have different preferences.  If you think DAC XYZ is the "best" then good for you, enjoy it!  Don't like some jerks opinion (ie me) on the internet take anything away from that. We can all like different things, and that's just fine.  You will never hear my system nor me yours, so it doesn't matter so long as you love yours!

 

Also keep in mind, I am mostly speaking about the negatives.  The reason for that is that for the most part, all these DACs did most thing well.  Assume if I didn't mention an aspect of the sound for that DAC, it means it probably did at least a passable job of that aspect. 

 

Chord DAVE
I owned a DAVE years ago. According to the distributor, I had the first one in Canada, so I know this DAC pretty well. It was the last "good DAC" I owned back when I was a headphone guy, so I thought it was well worth a home audition. Immediately, I really liked it, and the M-Scaler improves everything by a noticeable amount. Honestly, it was the first DAC I brought home, and I was pretty sure I would end up with it in this case too.

 

Berkeley Alpha V3
I also used to own a V1 of this DAC, and I have very fond memories of it. Listening to it now, it's a very detailed DAC, but it lacks separation, which is odd. The presentation, as a result, feels very "out of sorts," and it has a good amount of digital glare: that is to say, it sounds distinctly digital. It isn't smooth or organic at all. If you wanted something for studio work, this would be a good choice.

 

MSB Premier
This is an interesting one. I actually preferred it to DAVE+M due to it presenting a more cohesive presentation. What I mean is that the DAVE+M and the MSB presented a lot of detail, but the DAVE+M images were smaller in space than the MSB. The MSB felt more like a performance in front of you. For example, a guitar is life-sized with the MSB, whereas with DAVE+M it is 50% smaller. This gives the DAVE+M better separation, but it loses in naturalness.  This became my new 'to beat' DAC.

 

Bricasti M1
I LOVED this DAC... but only for a weekend. It's SUPER dynamic and punchy. It's the AC/DC of DACs: I don't care how much anyone loves AC/DC, sometimes you need a break from them. It's the DAC you buy if you want to wow your friends. It's lively and energetic but does have that same digital glare that the Berkeley had, but with more PRAT (dynamics and bass kick). For things like classical or jazz, it is fatiguing.

 

DCS Bartok APEX
Well, it's very detailed. And it's wonderfully made and looks great. Other than that, it didn't do anything for me. Years ago, I had a DCS Debussy that, to this day, is the WORST DAC I've heard. Seriously, the headphone jack on your phone is better than a Debussy. The Bartok is much better, but it's thin and mechanical sounding. I think this is the DAC to use at a Hi-Fi show (like the M1) because it will wow with its details. It's also a good DAC if you want bragging rights but don't really listen to much music.  I'll let you guys know when DCS sues me for saying this.

 

Linn Klimax DSM
The Klimax... They misspelled Climax and missed the mark in my eyes. I think it's a high-margin product because the dealer practically made me take it home for a demo. It's thin and digital-sounding, similar to the DCS, but with a more compact soundstage, which in this case, helped.  It's a GEOGIOUS looking unit and it's that's a priorty, it's had to beat.  Please keep in mind that I am being harsh on this unit (it's better than I am making it sound) but not at anywhere near the MSRP.  If you can get one at 70% off, it's a good choice.

 

AudioNote (ANK) Level 5
What can I say about this one... I built one years ago for a friend, and this one was loaned to me by a friend. It's like a slightly worse Premier (for less money, but adding tubes) in that it had a really wonderful presentation size but did a better job at layering. Where it lacked was detail retrieval, if that really matters to you. For the money, and if you are willing to build one and are okay with tubes, it's a lovely, musical DAC.

 

PS Audio DSD
I don't like this DAC. To me, it's sandy sounding. It is the least smooth of all the DACs, and the sound has a literal grainy quality. It is also one of only 2 DAC (the other being the ANK) that had an audible noise floor.  Hard pass.

 

T+A DAC200
Okay, I will put on my flame suit now. This DAC is good, but it isn't a "giant killer." Now, in all fairness, I used it like a normal person (Lumin as a streamer), and I didn't use a custom-built PC with HQPlayer, etc. But adding the PC and HQPlayer (not to mention the hassle) bumps the price of this DAC well past $7k, and I would get a used DAVE every day of the week over this for about the same money.

 

Weiss DAC501
The midrange on this DAC is really special—some of the best and probably only really bested by the ANK of the above DACs. The bottom end doesn't have the control or kick of the M1, and it doesn't have the resolution of the DAC200. It's the opposite of the M1 in that if you NEVER listen to AC/DC and only listen to jazz, this might be a really good choice.

 

Meitner M3 (because it was brought up)
I didn't take this one home unlike the others, so take this (actually everything I say) with a BIG grain of salt. I heard it at the dealer, and it's a very warm DAC. It's perfect if you want lovely-sounding background music. There is nothing offensive about the sound of the DAC, but as a result, it's flat and dry sounding. Totally unengaging and dull, lacking the resolution of the better DACs on this list.  Made in Canada or not, it wasn't for me.

 

Playback Designs MPD-8
I discovered this by chance. I was at a dealer looking at the Berkeley, and they had an MPD-8. When I saw the oddly shaped gray box, I thought it was an old, goofy-looking CD player they got in on trade or something. One of those pieces where the guy says something like, "Yeah, it's from 1992, but it has the special Sony laser that they only made on Wednesdays for 2 months that's the best ever built" or whatever. I passed when he first offered to audition it because I didn't want a CD player. He suggested I just give it a quick try anyway, as it was already hooked up. Immediately I was surprised—it was detailed with life-sized images. It has the depth of a good tube system and absolutely no digital grain. It offered all the dynamics and punch I could ever want with zero fatigue. This DAC was a total surprise and came out of nowhere for me. It sounds like hyperbole, but take the best elements of all the above DACs and combine them into one, and you have the MPD-8. To me, this was the choice, and the second best (MSB Premier) was lacking across the board (aside from looks) for substantially more money.

@bigfatpaulie

Beautiful DAC, congrats! Wow, you really put in your homework. 

I am sure many and I would love for you to share some listening notes for each of those DAC’s if you can muster up some audiophile adjectives.

And if you find a moment take some pictures and list your system in virtual systems, I would like to see the rest of your kit.

Hi @rja .  I actually did audition the MA3 at a dealer and based on that I wasn't motivated to do an in-home demo. 

I recommend a serious listen to a Meitner MA3.

A Canadian product that to my ears sounds great.

@bigfatpaulie very nice of you to pop back in and share your progress. 
That Playback Designs DAC is really nice. Enjoy!!!

Oh, I should also mention I upgraded my L509x to a Luxman M-10x 

 

I've had a busy few months!

Hi Everyone!

I thought I would pop in and post an update on my DAC journey.  First of all, I really appreicate all the help, advice and guidance post here and that I received though PM's.  Thank you all.

 

I ended up audtioning a few DAC's.  To name a few (and this not an exhaustive list):

 

Chord DAVE

Berkely Alpha V3

MSB Premier

Bricast M1

DCS Bartok APEX

Linn Kilmax

AudioNote (ANK) Level 5

PS Audio DSD

T+A DAC200

Weiss DAC501

 

I had the majotiy of these at home, in my system for at least a few days.  

 

Long story short the DAC that won my money is the Playback Designs MPD-8.  Frankly, compaired to the rest, it wasn't even close in most cases.  My second favorite was the MSB (for quite a bit more money).  I know it will sound trite but the Playback is the most musical sounding DAC I've ever expericened.  It's smooth without being dull.  It's detailed without being clinical.  It's dymanic without being grating.  To me, it's the full-meal deal.

 

Best,

-Paul

Hello @bigfatpaulie,  lots of good advice here!  @ghdprentice is always spot on.

I have had a friend's Dave in for direct comparison to my MM Tambaqui.  He sold the Dave and got a Tambaqui if that tells our story.  It sounds great buy it self with internal streamer or bridge, but excels when combined with the Grimm MU1 in my case, or another great streamer (Aurender N20 or better).  Many great reviews call the Grimm / Tambaqui a match made in heaven (Netherlands).  I have one stand alone Tambaqui, and another in the MM Makua Preamp; both are excellent.

 

@bigfatpaulie, the Meitner MA3 hits your first two requirements, especially the first one, plus it's made in Canada!    I personally found its resolution very good but not great, compared to a few other DACs I've also owned.   I've owned the Berkeley Alpha V2, a Bricasti, and currently own a Weiss that I think is a bit more resolving than the MA3.   The MA3 though definitely has that "Sounds have meat to them and texture.  The music feels real." quality,  as I replaced a very fine MojoAudio R2R NOS DAC with it and felt like it was a big upgrade.

Merason DAC1.

I highly recommend the PS AUDIO Directstream DAC MkII. You can hear Beautiful music through it.. Enough said...

I own a TotalDac D1 and a Baetis Revolution streamer streaming Tidal. I think in your price range yiu should 

Take a look at TotalDac

 

@bigfatpaulie , I own the Tambaqui and for a while I didn’t quite know how I felt about it. But I was putting it in standby all the time, which was my mistake. I realized that to sound its best, it takes quite a few hours - maybe 10 or more.

Not sure if this applies to you but I also found it to be lifeless and with a bit of glare until I realized I should just leave it on. I thought it didn’t quite have enough impact and as such wasn’t engaging. Now that I leave it on, I think it is fantastic - high resolution and dynamic but with a hair of lushness to it that to my ear at least makes it musical.

DAC's have a huge impact on ultimate performance.  Synergy is also a real thing in my experience. Some DAC's I liked with one combination of gear, but not with another. Try to demo as much/many as you can if possible (not always easy).  Old timers, like me, all have our favorites. My faves Ayre and Bricasti.

@milpai good to know... I feel like I've put at least that into it, but yeah I'll do some more listening.

@ja_kub_sz ,

Before you sell your T+A, make sure that you have have enough hours on the PCM side of the DAC. There are a couple of posters on the HeadFi forum who recently found out that the PCM section took about 200+ hours to come on it's own. In fact these guys liked the PCM presentation as much or slightly better than the DSD presentation. But this is a headphone forum and they do not have as much experience with loudspeakers.

Good luck!

Nice setup

Congrats

Mola Mola Tambaqui

When I was looking to get an integrated amp, I demoed the Luxman 509x and it was rather good. Then I made the mistake of listening to the Luxman c900u + m900u with the Luxman DAC in the then top end Luxman SACD player. The separates are significantly better than the 509x, mainly because of the stronger power supply. I mention this because I see the m900u on the used market at lower and lower prices. The m900u can also be run in mono.

The Luxman DAC is what a lot of people consider musical. Not my taste since I like a bit less warmth but that was a great system.

I think I just motivated myself to call Mitch to see if he can improve on my Livingroom system. It is a Yamaha NS500 speaker + CODA #16 amp. The speakers are a bit too close to the front wall. The sound is great but maybe it could be better. My ceiling is over 20 feet so maybe that is why the sound is good.

Check out the current review of HEM Ferrum Audio Products

EISA HiFi chapter members gave WANDLA the recognition by awarding it Best DAC of the Year, we just were beyond ourselves. The Converter proved to be The Best Converter. Our EISA winning streak began two years ago, back in 2021, with the success of our Ferrum HYPSOS hybrid power system

Both pieces $3995

Search Wandla reviews

@bigfatpaulie I am using a Schitt Yggi+ LIM DAC that I like a lot. I have a Benchmark DAC3B in my Livingroom system, The plan is to get a PlayBack Designs Dream DAC to supplement the DAC3B. You may want to read up a bit on the PBD. I wanted a DAC that was FPGA based and the PBD designer made the first FPGA based DAC. In fact, he mentored Ted Smith at PS Audio. Nagra DACs are also using his lower end tech.

I already have a lower end PDB streamer, and it is comparable to the Lumin X1 (using fibre) and the Sonore OpticalRendu (fibre again). At the moment I am only using SPDIF on the PBD streamer and it can still compete with the other 2. It has fibre but I need get a PBD DAC to use that feature. I figure if he can make a streamer this good his DACs should be spectacular.

The other FPGA DAC I was considering was a Rockna. I did not consider the DAVE or the PS Audio.

The following thread could be helpful for your DAC ideas:

Audiogon Discussion Forum

If you mostly stream with ROON, JRiver, or a computer you may want to talk with a fellow Canadian Mitch Barnett. The dude is a genius at what he does and is a relatively cheap alternative to resolve speaker placement. The adjustment in the digital signal is done BEFORE the DAC. All work is done remotely.

He is now also making a name for himself in the headphone space. I used his tech when my room was not acoustically nice as it is now. I no longer use his solution (with ROON) but it is genius level stuff and my safety net for speaker room interactions. In my opinion, the most important aspect of good sound.

Digital Room Calibration Services, Convolvers, Headphone Filtersets (accuratesound.ca)

Monoblock amps will solve you speaker cable issue. I use Benchmark XLR for my lengths over 15 feet. Those cables are cheap and do the job well.

The DAC204 and DAC205 are relatively affordable options to Weiss Engineering’s higher-grade units such as the DAC501 and the HELIOS. They do not have the onboard digital processing capabilities of those units, nor do they include headphone outputs or remote controls.Also,it all depends on what gear and cables, speakers you use to get that synergy system that sounds pleasant to your ears.There are also plenty of other reviews you can search on the web but better still ,if you can go listen at a dealer.Good luck with your choice.

@bigfatpaulie GIK sells stands for the panels. Mount a thick GIK 244 panels on these stands for each first reflection point. Store these two panels in the garage or something like that, and break em out for your critical listening sessions. Then stow them away. You can even do the third panel in front of fireplace. May be that’s an option.

 

Hi everyone!!  Thank you for all the input.  I'll do my best to answer everyone, but if I miss someone  I'm sorry.  

 

@yyzsantabarbara Of the DAC's I used to own, my favorite was probably DAVE, however, I was using it with a DNA Stellaris amp, fancy glass, and modded HD800's.  It was a very different system than my speakers and synergy is important.  I also had different goals than I do now.  My speaker cables are way too long.  They are also basic and will be replaced down the line.  The amp is in the basement, however, I am going to move it so it is basically just below the ceiling so the cables, in the end, will likely be 4 feet or so.
 

@blisshifi I originally had the DAC200 on my list because of the all the hype.  I also took it off because of all the hype.  Guys like Huff, it seems everything new is "the best" so I just ignore him and people like him.  I'be been around long enough to know that there is no such thing as a "giant killer" or a $15k item for $7k.  Too much hype for me, I guess...

 

@ja_kub_sz I've never heard of the Cen.Grand.  Thank you.  I have heard the Mola Mola and I guess I am alone in my feelings about it.  I don't care for it at all - I find it thin and lifeless sounding.  I also found it had a lot of digital grain.  For reference, I feel the same about the PS Audio DSD.  They aren't for me personally.

 

Thank you @audphile1 .  The speakers are toed in.  It could likely be solved by more room treatment (eg curtains) but things like that just aren't an option.  I have to work with what I have.

 

@vicdior Thank you for the Weiss suggestion.  It's another one of those hyped up Huff DAC's...  First the DAC200 was better than anything for twice the price, then the 204 was better than the DAC200 at half that price...  It just doesn't add up as then a 204 is better than any $15k DAC.  It's all too cloudy for me.

 

OP I have a bit of a fuzzy center image

In my experience, unless you find the natural sound system like the right speaker in the below video, the fuzzy/empty center image is impossible to avoid. All audio systems sound unnatural and fuzzy/empty center image like the left speaker in below video. Alex/WTA

A sample of the natural sound system.

Original music

Samples of unnatural sounds.