Advice needed: It's time for a new DAC

Hello @ghdprentice !

 

Thank you so much.  I really appreciate your comment as you've owned the Berkeley.  The CD9SE...  WOW!  I really adore AR stuff.  The some of best amps I've heard (save the Boulder 2160) have been AR.  

 

Thank you for your kind words.  My wife doesn't like carpet, however, when I have a serious listening session, I do put down two thick blankets on the floor.  It's an interesting idea you had about putting absorption in front of the fireplace. I have a bit of a fuzzy center image because of it and I never considered movable panels.

 

I have 4 5" thick Vicoustic panels on the walls behind the DAW's.  They make a minor difference as-is, but I wonder if they were on a discrete stand with casters that I rolled out (like the blankets on the floor) if that would help...  Very astute observation and thank you for the advice.

 

Hi @audiotroy 

 

Thank you for your reply.  To answer your questions:

what are you using currently using?
An RME-ADI2fs

how wil you feed the dac?
A Lumin U1

 

How does this information help you answer my initial question?

 

I use AES/EBU right now and I would likely keep it the same, hence why the Berkley made the list.  For context, I have, in the past owned an MSB Analog, a Berkley Alpha V1 and a Chord DAVE.  I owned each, however, when I was in a condo and I was exclusively using headphones.  Now, I exclusively use speakers. 

Hi everyone!!  Thank you for all the input.  I'll do my best to answer everyone, but if I miss someone  I'm sorry.  

 

@yyzsantabarbara Of the DAC's I used to own, my favorite was probably DAVE, however, I was using it with a DNA Stellaris amp, fancy glass, and modded HD800's.  It was a very different system than my speakers and synergy is important.  I also had different goals than I do now.  My speaker cables are way too long.  They are also basic and will be replaced down the line.  The amp is in the basement, however, I am going to move it so it is basically just below the ceiling so the cables, in the end, will likely be 4 feet or so.
 

@blisshifi I originally had the DAC200 on my list because of the all the hype.  I also took it off because of all the hype.  Guys like Huff, it seems everything new is "the best" so I just ignore him and people like him.  I'be been around long enough to know that there is no such thing as a "giant killer" or a $15k item for $7k.  Too much hype for me, I guess...

 

@ja_kub_sz I've never heard of the Cen.Grand.  Thank you.  I have heard the Mola Mola and I guess I am alone in my feelings about it.  I don't care for it at all - I find it thin and lifeless sounding.  I also found it had a lot of digital grain.  For reference, I feel the same about the PS Audio DSD.  They aren't for me personally.

 

Thank you @audphile1 .  The speakers are toed in.  It could likely be solved by more room treatment (eg curtains) but things like that just aren't an option.  I have to work with what I have.

 

@vicdior Thank you for the Weiss suggestion.  It's another one of those hyped up Huff DAC's...  First the DAC200 was better than anything for twice the price, then the 204 was better than the DAC200 at half that price...  It just doesn't add up as then a 204 is better than any $15k DAC.  It's all too cloudy for me.

 

Oh, I should also mention I upgraded my L509x to a Luxman M-10x 

 

I've had a busy few months!

Hi Everyone!

I thought I would pop in and post an update on my DAC journey.  First of all, I really appreicate all the help, advice and guidance post here and that I received though PM's.  Thank you all.

 

I ended up audtioning a few DAC's.  To name a few (and this not an exhaustive list):

 

Chord DAVE

Berkely Alpha V3

MSB Premier

Bricast M1

DCS Bartok APEX

Linn Kilmax

AudioNote (ANK) Level 5

PS Audio DSD

T+A DAC200

Weiss DAC501

 

I had the majotiy of these at home, in my system for at least a few days.  

 

Long story short the DAC that won my money is the Playback Designs MPD-8.  Frankly, compaired to the rest, it wasn't even close in most cases.  My second favorite was the MSB (for quite a bit more money).  I know it will sound trite but the Playback is the most musical sounding DAC I've ever expericened.  It's smooth without being dull.  It's detailed without being clinical.  It's dymanic without being grating.  To me, it's the full-meal deal.

 

Best,

-Paul

Hi @rja .  I actually did audition the MA3 at a dealer and based on that I wasn't motivated to do an in-home demo. 

@audphile1 

 

It is the current MK2.  It was loaned to me by a dealer (In Canada there are PS Audio dealers).

Sure @mclinnguy .  I took  A LOT of notes when I auditioned but here's a very brief summery.  

 

Please keep in mind, if anyone loves one of the DAC's below, that's cool.  Below are MY OPINIONS.  Not fact.  We are all different and have different preferences.  If you think DAC XYZ is the "best" then good for you, enjoy it!  Don't like some jerks opinion (ie me) on the internet take anything away from that. We can all like different things, and that's just fine.  You will never hear my system nor me yours, so it doesn't matter so long as you love yours!

 

Also keep in mind, I am mostly speaking about the negatives.  The reason for that is that for the most part, all these DACs did most thing well.  Assume if I didn't mention an aspect of the sound for that DAC, it means it probably did at least a passable job of that aspect. 

 

Chord DAVE
I owned a DAVE years ago. According to the distributor, I had the first one in Canada, so I know this DAC pretty well. It was the last "good DAC" I owned back when I was a headphone guy, so I thought it was well worth a home audition. Immediately, I really liked it, and the M-Scaler improves everything by a noticeable amount. Honestly, it was the first DAC I brought home, and I was pretty sure I would end up with it in this case too.

 

Berkeley Alpha V3
I also used to own a V1 of this DAC, and I have very fond memories of it. Listening to it now, it's a very detailed DAC, but it lacks separation, which is odd. The presentation, as a result, feels very "out of sorts," and it has a good amount of digital glare: that is to say, it sounds distinctly digital. It isn't smooth or organic at all. If you wanted something for studio work, this would be a good choice.

 

MSB Premier
This is an interesting one. I actually preferred it to DAVE+M due to it presenting a more cohesive presentation. What I mean is that the DAVE+M and the MSB presented a lot of detail, but the DAVE+M images were smaller in space than the MSB. The MSB felt more like a performance in front of you. For example, a guitar is life-sized with the MSB, whereas with DAVE+M it is 50% smaller. This gives the DAVE+M better separation, but it loses in naturalness.  This became my new 'to beat' DAC.

 

Bricasti M1
I LOVED this DAC... but only for a weekend. It's SUPER dynamic and punchy. It's the AC/DC of DACs: I don't care how much anyone loves AC/DC, sometimes you need a break from them. It's the DAC you buy if you want to wow your friends. It's lively and energetic but does have that same digital glare that the Berkeley had, but with more PRAT (dynamics and bass kick). For things like classical or jazz, it is fatiguing.

 

DCS Bartok APEX
Well, it's very detailed. And it's wonderfully made and looks great. Other than that, it didn't do anything for me. Years ago, I had a DCS Debussy that, to this day, is the WORST DAC I've heard. Seriously, the headphone jack on your phone is better than a Debussy. The Bartok is much better, but it's thin and mechanical sounding. I think this is the DAC to use at a Hi-Fi show (like the M1) because it will wow with its details. It's also a good DAC if you want bragging rights but don't really listen to much music.  I'll let you guys know when DCS sues me for saying this.

 

Linn Klimax DSM
The Klimax... They misspelled Climax and missed the mark in my eyes. I think it's a high-margin product because the dealer practically made me take it home for a demo. It's thin and digital-sounding, similar to the DCS, but with a more compact soundstage, which in this case, helped.  It's a GEOGIOUS looking unit and it's that's a priorty, it's had to beat.  Please keep in mind that I am being harsh on this unit (it's better than I am making it sound) but not at anywhere near the MSRP.  If you can get one at 70% off, it's a good choice.

 

AudioNote (ANK) Level 5
What can I say about this one... I built one years ago for a friend, and this one was loaned to me by a friend. It's like a slightly worse Premier (for less money, but adding tubes) in that it had a really wonderful presentation size but did a better job at layering. Where it lacked was detail retrieval, if that really matters to you. For the money, and if you are willing to build one and are okay with tubes, it's a lovely, musical DAC.

 

PS Audio DSD
I don't like this DAC. To me, it's sandy sounding. It is the least smooth of all the DACs, and the sound has a literal grainy quality. It is also one of only 2 DAC (the other being the ANK) that had an audible noise floor.  Hard pass.

 

T+A DAC200
Okay, I will put on my flame suit now. This DAC is good, but it isn't a "giant killer." Now, in all fairness, I used it like a normal person (Lumin as a streamer), and I didn't use a custom-built PC with HQPlayer, etc. But adding the PC and HQPlayer (not to mention the hassle) bumps the price of this DAC well past $7k, and I would get a used DAVE every day of the week over this for about the same money.

 

Weiss DAC501
The midrange on this DAC is really special—some of the best and probably only really bested by the ANK of the above DACs. The bottom end doesn't have the control or kick of the M1, and it doesn't have the resolution of the DAC200. It's the opposite of the M1 in that if you NEVER listen to AC/DC and only listen to jazz, this might be a really good choice.

 

Meitner M3 (because it was brought up)
I didn't take this one home unlike the others, so take this (actually everything I say) with a BIG grain of salt. I heard it at the dealer, and it's a very warm DAC. It's perfect if you want lovely-sounding background music. There is nothing offensive about the sound of the DAC, but as a result, it's flat and dry sounding. Totally unengaging and dull, lacking the resolution of the better DACs on this list.  Made in Canada or not, it wasn't for me.

 

Playback Designs MPD-8
I discovered this by chance. I was at a dealer looking at the Berkeley, and they had an MPD-8. When I saw the oddly shaped gray box, I thought it was an old, goofy-looking CD player they got in on trade or something. One of those pieces where the guy says something like, "Yeah, it's from 1992, but it has the special Sony laser that they only made on Wednesdays for 2 months that's the best ever built" or whatever. I passed when he first offered to audition it because I didn't want a CD player. He suggested I just give it a quick try anyway, as it was already hooked up. Immediately I was surprised—it was detailed with life-sized images. It has the depth of a good tube system and absolutely no digital grain. It offered all the dynamics and punch I could ever want with zero fatigue. This DAC was a total surprise and came out of nowhere for me. It sounds like hyperbole, but take the best elements of all the above DACs and combine them into one, and you have the MPD-8. To me, this was the choice, and the second best (MSB Premier) was lacking across the board (aside from looks) for substantially more money.

Exactly!  

 

In then end, we all just want to enjoy our music!  :)

@audphile1 So full disclosure, I used to own the M1 about 8-9 years ago when I was a headphone user.  I really loved the DAC at the, especially with the HD600's connected directly to the balanced out's.  Because of my fond memory of it, I wanted to audition it again. With this time, I did play with all the filters but the one I settled on was minimum 4.  With that said, I did find the filters offered a generally subtle difference, personally, and the M1 sounds like the M1 regardless of filter setting. 

 

@mclinnguy Yes, I did end up with a more expensive DAC but the PS Audio was also not the cheapest on my list.  Both the ANK and the T+A DAC200 were less money.  The reason I auditioned the PSA was that the dealer that sold me my speakers offered it to as they felt it offers excellent value and was well worth a listen.

 

And you are correct, I noted the error about the PB names after I posted but I couldn't edit my post.  The PBD unit I first saw/demo'd was the MPS-8 (DAC/Player/Streamer in 1 box) as they did not have a MPD-8 on hand.  I did my auditioning using the MPS-8.  The unit I bought is the MPD-8 (DAC only) as I did not want the CD player or streaming functionality.  According to Andreas Koch, who was very kind in answering all my questions, was very clear that as a DAC only the MPD-8 is the better choice, though the units are very close sounding.  Having heard both, I would agree.

That's cool @audphile1 !!  Though, I don't envy the search that lies ahead of you!  I took me MONTHS to settle on one.  Hopfully you find yours faster than I did mine.

If you don't mind me asking (and I am just being nosy here) what do you have currently and what's on your short list?

Good luck with your hunt!

@hk_fan Thank you!  I am glad to have you along on my DAC journey!

 

@audphile1 There's no laughing from me, just pangs of relatability!  I can completely relate to your situation of regretting selling something and so on. The Sabrina's are wonderful speakers.  I'm not sure if you recall, but I had a pair.  I have nothing but fondness for them.  I feel like it is unusual for someone to go from mono blocks to an integrated unless it was a space issue.  Was that the case with you, or something else?  I'm not familiar with the Coda but I have heard a lot of really, really good things with the 866, especially so with the Sabrina's.  The 866 has, from what I understand, a fantastic DAC.  Do you not find that to the be case?

@audphile1 It's itneresting that you like the Coda so much, even next to big 'ole mono's!  Good luck in your hunt for a DAC and I hope you report back on your findings!

 

@tweak1 I am not using a transport.  I use a Lumin U1 as a streamer. 

@metaldetektor Thank you!  Yes, I've heard both the MPS-8 AND MPD-8.

 

After listing to so many DACs, more and less expensive, I am ever more convinced that there no DAC's competitive with the MPD-8.  To make it a fair fight, you have to compare it to a good vinyl system as all other digital is a very different sound.

 

One of the dealers I know very well has a Clearaudio Statement V2 and I think this would be a more comparable source. 

@mbmi I'm glad you love your new DAC!  Rock on!