Adding a tube amp is a good idea?

I have been into high end audio for fifty year and over that time almost always had a Pass designed amp. Most recently the x350. I had tubes in my CD player, preamp, and phono stage. But I hesitated to get an amp with tubes. I liked the idea of absolute reliability.

Then I went to an introduction of the release of the Audio Research Reference 160m about eight years ago. These amps have auto-biasing, and soft turn on... basically eliminating my concerns. I immediately said, when they come out with a stereo version... I am in.

They did. My dealer brought one over for trial. The moment was simply jaw dropping. I had just moved my Pass x350 to the side... intending to swap in and out. Within seconds I knew there would be no swapping... It would never come out.... well, until mine arrived. Then my dealer let me have a pair of Reference 160m mono blocks for two years. But I have been in audio heaven for five or six years now.

If I knew thirty of forty years ago what I know now I would have been running a tube amps from the beginning, and specifically ARC. I am sure the Ref 80s will change your life.

Oh, yes, it will sound different.

Fantastic, thanks @ghdprentice 

My first better end system, 30 years ago, started with a Cary entry level tube amp (and a B&K digital HT preamp in front of it).  That started me down a long road.  

I am not familiar with that ARC amp you listed, but my next upgrade from the little Cary amp was a pair of ARC VTM 120s.  Those babies sounded fantastic, even with that particular preamp of dubious audiophile quality.  They could whisper sweet and quiet or they could scream.   And if it wasn't for how unreliable they could be when I flipped the switches on them, I'd still own them today.  

Variety is the spice of life!

Adding a tube amp in a second system alongside whatever it is you have now is a very smart way to test the waters.

If you are going to try a tube amp, Audio Research is as good a choice as any.

Not a huge tube amp fan here in that I listen to all genres and my favorite speakers in-house currently are not inherently tube amp friendly but have owned AudioResearch and am a fan.

Matching gear properly is especially important with tube gear due to higher output impedances that are typically found.

After many receivers, integrateds, separate solid state amps/preamp, hybrid amp, and a better solid state amp with a tube preamp, then full tubes for many years, I settled on a tube/SS hybrid bi-amp setup with a tube preamp, and tube monoblocks on the midbass/tweeters, and active low pass crossover to a SS integrated amp below 80hz to the woofers. The tube front end with tubes on the whole vocal range yields some pretty incredible results. It’s personal, it’s subjective, it’s system dependent, but it’s been delivering some amazing audio moments on a regular basis.

Most affordable tube amps don’t have great bass slam, extension, and control (actually many of the more expensive ones aren’t great at that either). A modest SS state amp used in the lower ranges delivers pretty well, where tubes tend not to.

Yes, it will sound different. Yes you should try to find out tube sonics for yourself.

I have 2 audio chains - SS neutral linear dropping the noise floor, and an 100db speaker to investigate tubes sonics starting with flea watt SET 300b amps.  I too like variety, but at high sonic quality.

The mcintosh has crossover tube 300 watt ss 600 all in one but is costly i bought used.tube for mid and high .ss for woffers.enjoy the music.

My experience with tubes is that they are addictive . They are like a warm hot chocolate on a cold day, or a banana split on a summer day. Indulgence and comfort. A 1953 Cadillac Eldorado.

About your speakers and desired tube amps, below are two snippets from other published sources, that being Stereophile Magazine on the first, and ARC's own website on the 80S amp.  

Turning to the Perspective2's measured performance, my estimate of the new speaker's voltage sensitivity was 83.6dB(B)/2.83V/m, which is within experimental error of the original Perspective's 84dB. This is low, but the Perspective2's plot of impedance magnitude and electrical phase against frequency (fig.1) suggest that the speaker is an easy load for the partnering amplifier to drive

The 80S was created for the music lover who does not require the output power of its larger siblings, the Reference 160S stereo and 160M mono amplifiers. The 80S continues the design ethos, including dual GhostMeters® that float in front of four KT150 output tubes. Extruded panels, a vital part of the all-aluminum chassis, provide rigidity and beauty.

To state the obvious, 84 dB efficiency is on the low end of being a friendly speaker.  In fact, your speaker, does not seem "amp friendly ". As for your desired amp, it uses Tung Sol KT 150 tubes, which is a big honkin power tube, so that's good.  If you're going to pick an amp with descent power, 80 or so watts per channel seems okay.  Will 80 watts be enough to drive an 84 dB speaker?  I think that depends on how you like to listen to music; 80 watts via KT 150s has some oomph behind it, but if you want concert levels of volume, I don't think you'll arrive at your destination.  I think that combo will play okay, and "loud enough" if you listen at a sane level.  

About where I'm coming from on this is a bit of my own slightly similar experience in that I have a similarly powered amp in a pair of Lamm ML1.1 monoblocks, and they're claimed to cook-up 90 watts per channel.  I absolutely love these amps, music through these are magical but they do have their limits.  I have two speaker pairs I use, a pair of Focal Mezzo's at 90-ish dB efficiency and a pair of Von Schweikert floorstanders at 92 dB sensitivity.  On these speakers, that amp works terrific; it plays pleasantly loud, not concert going level loud though, which some like.  Your speakers are less efficient than what I have.  At 83 to 84 dB sensitive speakers, I'm not so sure 80 watts is going to be enough, depending on how the loudness level you like.  It'll play yes, it'll probably play to an enjoyable high-ish level, but if you want to crank it when Billy Idol sings Rebel Yell at concert levels, even 80 watts from KT 150s will have their limit.  If you want loud, perhaps think about VTL's higher output amps or bigger amps from Audio Research.  Lastly, about tube amps, EL 34 tubes amps, do not play like KT 150 bottles.  You'll not get great warmth with KT 150 bottles.  You'll get ARC sound closer to neutrality in sound signature.  My Lamm's liquid midrange is something to behold, but it can't play to the dynamics my highly hopped-up Sonic Frontiers Power 3s using 8 @ KT 120 bottles per mono can cook-up.  Chris @ Parts Connexion says my modded amps are rated at 260-ish wpc.  These amps can play with oomph, and if you're looking to have that feeling of concert venue loudness, 260 wpc will get done, but with 80 wpc, I venture to say you will get polite loudness, which if that's your cup of tea, cool, but if not, look somewhere else.  

It seems to me you're looking to spend about $10,000 or so dollars.  That's a chunk of cash, at least it is to me.  You can get a lot of nice amps for that kind of dosh.  There's lots to consider; I've tried to touch on some major points.  In any case, I'm sure whatever you get will be the right amp, because it is you who made the choice!  Happy amp hunting!  

Regarding the power match between your speakers and the ARC S80, much would depend on the size of the room and loudness levels desired. They are not difficult to drive impedance/phase angle wise.

@panerai557 

Have you ever considered a Hybrid preamp and/or amplifier? You get the flavor of tubes and the power of SS without most of the heat.  My first taste came from an ARC SP9mkll.  It uses 6922 tubes for its input stage and SS for its output. (I still love its sound) And now I am using PS Audio BHK preamp and amps.  All three have tube input stages and SS outputs.

Just a thought.

And I moved from the PS Audio hybrid BHK 250 to an all-tube Zesto Bia 120 ( now replaced by the even more powerful Bia 200). I liked the BHK 250 very much - it is obviously a very good amp. But the Zesto changed everything. Suddenly it felt like the music was being piped straight to the right side of my brain. The creative, arty side. The BHK had better bass - deeper, a little more controlled. But everything else was in favor of the all-tube, Class A Zesto. No regrets in the two years since I made the change.

@lucky_doggg7 ​​​​​thanks for taking time posting your response. Jeff Joseph thinks that the amp would sound pretty good. He demos the speakers using Dosh tube amp with smiliar power. I also heard the previous version of the speakers with EAR V12 integrated tube amp and that output 50w, sounded planty loud for my listening level. Yes there are many other choices, but I always had desire to own AR gear. Pass was the same way. Hopefully those two amps provide me with different sound for enjoyment 

I certainly hope so because I’m about to build a little 6L6 tube amp for my 95db speakers. I’ve driven them with small Pass DIY Class A SS amps. They have such a sweet sound, but now I want to hear what tubes do. I’m told 6L6 tubes are particularly clear. It’s fun to play with such different gear.

@jfuquay  Curious. What amp kit do you have and what speakers?

You kinda have to go out and hear some of the candidate amps.  Tube amps vary in sound MUCH more than do solid state amps.  I am a tube amp fan, but, I find that a lot of high powered tube amps sound brittle and unpleasant on the top end.  This has been the case with some, but not all Audio Research amps, so at the fery least, listen to some tube amps.  Also, consider not going the high powered route; a lot of people starting out with high powered tube amps amps end up buying more modest 40 or lower watt per channel tube amp.

You have a nice linestage so I know you are looking for a power amp, but, you should listen to something like the Synthesis Audio A100 tube integrated amp (it has a very good built in DAC too).  The company makes power amps too, but they might be a bit high in price.  My local dealer has a lot of customers switching to A100’s (100 watts per channel) or its baby brother the A40 from some pretty exotic solid state amps (e.g., D’Agostino, Pass Labs) and tube amps (e.g., top end Jadis).

@corelli

The amp is an Elekit 8200R from Tube Depot. It’s supposed to arrive today. It comes with JJ 6L6GC power tubes and the usual 12AU7 inputs. A guy in our local audio club built Elekit’s 300B kit - went all in with the WE tubes and other upgrades, like Lundahl output transformers - and paired it with 93db speakers. I’ve heard it and it’s wonderful. I’ll probably set my amp’s jumpers for ultralinear (8 watts pc) at first, since my understanding is it’s optimized for that. You can also choose triode (4 watts pc) and pentode with the jumpers. The thing also has an auto bias circuit that adjusts for different tubes, so you can pop in EL34s, KT66 and other, similar tubes. I’ll feed it from my DAC at first and then from my Pass diy preamps and see what works best. It’s got a volume control of its own. I’m excited. Hope I don’t fry myself with the voltages these things operate on.

The speakers are DIY bookshelves with one 6.5-inch full-range driver each. I sourced all the parts from Parts Express. I searched for an 8-ohm speaker with 90+db sensitivity and carbon fiber cones (just because I like the sound of Wharfedale speakers and figured their woven Kevlar cones had something to do with it). I was a little shocked they sounded as good as they do. No, they don’t make much bass, but I added a little Martin Logan sub I got cheap and it all works together nicely. The setup is just for a family room we spend a lot of time in, so it’s not intended to be the end game system.

I knew it!!  I think you will like the Elekit 8200.  Read some very good things on that unit. If you like it (and I'm quite sure you will), consider upgrading to Lundahl OPT.  I think it will pair up great with your FR driver in triode.

I have a Ray integrated with the 6L6/Lundahls driving Omega speakers.  They work great together.  Very synergistic. 

Let us know how you like the Elekit.

Maybe it's just me but I like folk,jazz, acoustic music on my tube system and rock on my Integrated Amp set up.

Many probably would share similar feelings.  What blows me away is how a 4wpc SET driving a full range driver coupled with small REL subs allows me to enjoy 90% of my CD collection.  Yes, there are some recordings that clearly are better sounding on my "big system"  However, there are also some recordings I prefer on this smaller more modest system.

My only hesitation with tube amps are the heat and the the potential of endless tube rolling and life and cost of power tubes.  In addition, I would probably drive myself crazy trying to figure out when to replace the tubes.  My solution is my tube pre amp and solid state monoblock amps. 

I concur with goose and some others, that driving low impedance, power demanding speakers with a tub power amp, no mater how good they may sound,  can be a never ending and expensive battle of replacing blown tubes, fuses and resistors.

For a couple of years I drove my 87db. 4-ohm Maggies with a 100W tube amp with KT-120 tubes. The sound of the Maggies with the the tubes was incredible. But, even though I listened at low to moderate levels, two times I had tubes blow. Not only did I have to replace tubes, but also resistors and fuses, turning into an expense and headache.

From now on, I'll stick with a tube Pre. combined with a high current power amp, or a hybrid integrated amp, to drive my Maggies, as I have no intention of giving up the Maggies.

It appears that your speakers might be a little power demanding, so is something to consider.

Jim

Something else I might mention - even though the volume knob did not have to be cranked much (less than a quarter) to get plenty of volume for moderate listening, the demand was still there, taking its tole on the tubes.

Jim

I would keep what you have or consider an amp that is all Class A.  I've heard the JA Pulsar Graphenes with both Sugden and Pass class A amps and to my ears, that was a great pairing.