Adding a “safe haven” forum for discussion of tweaks?

What is it? 😁

Not sure, but "If it’s not Scottish, it’s crap!"

Cheers,

Spencer

I don't check in on audiogon too much anymore, partially because the discussions often degenerate into name-calling, but also because for my taste too many threads are hijacked by pitches for tweaks.

I like the idea of a separate forum for tweaks. I think we should think of it not as a "safe haven"--looks like those words carry too much baggage--, but as a place that attracts discussions for people interested in and supportive of this way of thinking about audio reproduction. So: not about censorship, but about enabling for those interested. And most importantly, it then needs firm moderation to keep it a place that supports that kind of discussion. Any volunteers for that role?

As the saying goes People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

MC wrote “We already have people saying very clearly where they stand. Just look how clear you were to let everyone know, and how little that did to stop the same old boorish behavior. “

Maybe a hard rule could be to leave politics out of this forum. That’s a red hot button for many on both sides of the divide.

"I knew it was always Agon’s decision, but as I stated before, other threads without discourse to this day have gone on for years, talking about the same things."

You are correct in that. There are instances where there is no rhyme nor reason as to post deletions, thread deletions, what goes and what stays. Posts that clearly break the rules are left for all to see, while completely innocuous posts that breach no protocols disappear. No system is perfect.

As I have said, people used to be able to monitor themselves and had control enough of their own emotions that they knew how to be mannerly, polite & civil. Its hard to believe that ability has vanished in so many.

Could this be the sign of the times?

Lack of self control?

With all the frustration of COVID, the economic conditions and external factors (political) (supply chain and not getting your speaker or treadmill) that are dividing us and causing us pain, and we lash out.

Or is it just in our nature, human nature?

We are the most advanced technologically, yet have less ability to control our emotions? Why is that I wonder?

Could it be that technology is de-humanizing our selves?

We need to get back to basics.

I know I can be salty and it is usually my frustrations in business that are boiling over and I do apologize. Sometimes it’s cause it was earned.

Have a great day.

It is what it is.

What is it? 😁

Some people have difficulty respecting  the different views of others.  It is what it is.   

Plus there’s more. Since most everyone starts a thread sometime , it would make all of us moderators/monitors. As I have said, people used to be able to monitor themselves and had control enough of their own emotions that they knew how to be mannerly, polite & civil. Its hard to believe that ability has vanished in so many. We are the most advanced technologically, yet have less ability to control our emotions? Why is that I wonder?

@toolbox149 

Dear God 🙄 You seem to be struggling to comprehend the concept that an OP

does not own a thread merely because they started it, On this forum once it is posted it becomes open to all members to comment upon within the rules already set down.

Once more ... If you dont like the way this forum is run simply go somewhere  where you do.

@mikelavigne made some great points that sum up what I see. Many of the most knowledgeable and experienced LISTENERS that previously contributed here regularly are around rarely or never, because they've tired of posts that detract from listening-based opinions, suggestions and questions. 

I abhor censorship and really don't want to go down the road of deleting opinions I don't agree with. The frustrating part of all the derailed threads is that most of the objectivists restate the same talking points over and over in threads where OP asks for insights from those who've listened to a particular piece of gear.

Maybe one day I'll see a post where someone proves that they've studied the correlation between a sonic descriptor and a measurement with a large statistically signifcant population and low margin of error...then use that to perform perfect unbiased testing on all the sonic parmeters I'm interested in...and then they'll apply all that on a large statistically significant population A/B-ing the two tonearms I'm considering. Then they can tell me they proved A is better than B. Perhaps, I'll then take note of their recommendation. 

Maybe an "off topic" button that flags a moderator review after ## votes would help. Some sites move posts to start a separate thread rather than deleting it, where it makes sense.

IMHO thumbs up and down don't really get the job done. Just read a sports site where all the rival fans vote up their own teams. It doesn't advance the original conversation. Cheers,

Spencer

tsushima

@toolbox149

Really? Get A Grip 🤨

Great, There ya’ go. If you don’t like the way I handle the direction of my threads. If you think I cut too many posts, or leave too many counter-productive posts in; "you have the freedom of choice to not join. "

"Exactly So!"

Or

If I think someone is posting too many unproductive comments I can cut a few and keep my topic on track and productive.

Thanks for the help.

Tim

After I pry myself from my wife arm and sit down with cup of coffee I see some poster here KDL with complex that call inferior to other. This one reason for so many power struggle and dumb rule where people behind 10 year boy wanting be girl in society and reason censor information and ultimate struggle for being in charge of political system and try align people at all cost but that greater issue than forum but it relate when people say some want more freedom and other want to let other not have freedom. I ask my wife about this post and she say maybe I too much man. I like toolbox idea and when I own site I get change like that done. Put post maker in driver seat not have to deal with people they don't want post.

Thsi is my post from the other thread, i guess it needed to be here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Canuck audio forum ’cable forum area’ rules end up being effective in this sort of way:

The premise, is that area of the fourm is for threads that talk about tweaks, cables, the efficacy of mods and tweaks, what they should sound like, or not sound like. It does not preclude talking about the idea of discovery work in why they work the way they do. it does not preclude discussing the potentials in science and engineering and the discovery work in why they appear to work they way they do.

What is forbidden, is to interrupt such discussions about such product, devices, ideas and/or musing on it all. It is forbidden to interrupt and call it all lies, and snake oil, hogwash, unreal,and so on.

One is forbidden to ARGUE that it is all garbage. That it is all unscientific.

One can discuss the efficacy of such thing and investigate it’s origins.

One can’t denigrate and attack it’s basis for being or it’s exploration in a negative way.

That’s it. nothing more.

If there is a discussion of any type of that nature going on, and the negativity was not invited, then it can’t get into the conversation.

If the topic INVITES the discussion of it’s basis or reality, in science, THEN the discussion of such - is on. but importantly, not in a negative way that says the premise is unreal.

Where lets say, I heard what I heard. The naysayer cannot, even by sly wording, via gaming their wording - argue agaisnt the hearing of it. I heard what I heard. the end. what all that means is fair game if the duscssion of it is invited. But the heard thing was heard. That -----is not posible to dispute.

And no, they don’t have to announce that they don’t want the negative input. Negative input is forbidden unless specifically asked for.

Oh yes, hatred against tweaks and cables, etc, starting such thread in the cable and tweaks forum area -is forbidden. If one wants to to do that, they can go and do that in some other forum area.

~~~~~~~~~~

The result, is that no one talks about how good or bad cables are, how good or bad tweaks are, how such things sound, and so on. No one bothers, as they already know the stuff is real and it works. It works well, or if it works poorly (for the individual, etc).. is it a good deal, a bargain... or it is a poor choice? Rsults vary, for people and their audio systems. This is all expected and is all known things, for the people who think and do such, concerning their own audio systems.

But, importantly, IF the subjectively heard sonic results of experimentation, is raised (I hear this, etc).. no one is allowed to INTERFERE in the conversation. No one is allowed to inject any negative takes into the conversation.

If they want to do that, they have to go to OTHER forum areas to do that. they can create a thread where they burn flags and effigies of the horrible tweak and cable using/discussing people.

The people who use tweaks and cables, etc.. where they understand it subjectively or even scientifically... they won’t interfere or get involved, for the most part. they know they are dealing with projections and Karen complexes (some are even visibly frothing!), much of it executed or framed in a VERY poorly misunderstood idea of what science is.

Haters, talk amongst yourselves, is the result. No. One. Cares.

The result is peace, bliss, silence. Cable and tweak dissent and hatred disappears from the forum, almost entirely.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

What it all ends up saying:

If one is worried that all that cable and tweak stuff is going to take over the given forum, well, simply... it does not happen. It just doesn’t. that boogeyman does not exist. It’s a projecting Karen twist of the mind.

The history of it, in all other forums that deal with it by allowing it or it even being central to the given forum..well it does not take over. The outsized reactionary response is not there, and the cable believers, etc..don’t feel a need to protect their position as there is nothing to protect against. No one gets overexcited and wars don’t erupt.

What does exist, though... is the outsized hatred based response to tweaks and cables, etc.

That reactionary insanity..when it is disallowed from interrupting discussions, it is found to be what the tweaker and cable believers know it to be --an emotionally based animal response that is totally out of control. That the cable hater doth protest too much. And that is the part that has to be told off and cooled off, blocked off.

And the result, is peace for all, in this subject area only, of course. There are plenty of other things to react blindly about, for everybody....

@thecarpathian 

" If you don't care for their rules, you have the freedom of choice to not join. "

Exactly So !

@toolbox149 

Really? Get A Grip 🤨

@ozzy62 +1

It is a very slippery slope!

I come here for ideas not to be preached to.

Say whatever you like about an idea/equipment, just don't attack the person

you disagree with.

Everything I need to know I learned in kindergarten. 

Regards,

barts

I’ve said this before, but I’ll throw my suggestion out one more time. I think these issues could be helped if the OP had the power to delete a single post, or all of the posts in a thread by someone. Just a couple of buttons that let each OP decide what kind of discussion he/she wants to have. The buttons would only be good for that particular topic - not a universal "Ignore" button.
If the OP wants a no holds barred discussion, let em’ in. If a more focused discussion is sought, let the OP have the power to trim posts that are counter-productive. If you don’t like the way a particular OP manages his/her discussion you can easily skip the OP’s topics altogether.

Personally, While I’m not too fond of naysayers or shills, what really turns me off are posters who derail the entire topic with back and forth insults. More often than not these derails have nothing to do with music. They just end up with the usual, "Your an idiot/You suck", drivel. Meanwhile, the poor OP never gets good input involving the original post.

So I would vote for giving the OP the power to control the direction of the discussion. Just two buttons:

1). Delete this post

2). Delete all posts by this person

Thanks,

Tim

I must say, all these new posting options are pretty cool!

Thanks TC,

I knew it was always Agon’s decision, but as I stated before, other threads without discourse to this day have gone on for years, talking about the same things.

And multiple threads talking about the same things? Is a very common occurence here.

And it's kinda hard to impossible to continue to post to a thread discussion(s) that has been taken down and closed by the moderators.

Why stop with tweaks? There are dissenters out there that say all

preamps

amps

cd players

streamers

sound the same. They poo poo any time somone says something expensive sounds better than something cheap. Are we going to police those forums and ban posts that proclaim "all amplifiers working within their power rating sound the same"?

I say it's a slippery slope.

Oz

tyray,

Tammy (Audiogon) Oct 17, 2021, 8:23 AM EDT
I believe it was removed because of this. Threads are closed if they are repetitive. Tammy

 

fiesta75 Okay, thank you. In my opinion, 3 responses total is not what I would call repetitive. The post was up for a very short time.

 

Tammy (Audiogon) Oct 17, 2021, 3:33 PM EDT
I'm talking about the subject of the post not the comments.

Lately, we are getting multiple threads posted about Fuses.
We are just trying to close some where the topic has been covered in another previous thread. Tammy

There you go.

Straight from Tammy.

If you made membership in the forum for private parties only, that is, those who aren't in the business of tweaking for profit, then why not? The issue that I have is with the constant self promotion we see here from a few parties who are in business selling their "mods" and tweaks, praying off the insecurities and naivete of others with their subjective opinions about what's "best" dressed as fact.

thecarpathian

But, from what I've discerned, I don't believe the threads are being shut down because of discord. I believe they are being shut down for being repetitive, as there were several fuse threads all basically taking identical paths.

I have to disagree with you there. When discussions are cordial, like minded members have been posting to discussions here that have been lasting for years.

And with all due respect to you, you know this to be true. But I must thank you again for being cordial to me, even if we may disagree.

Now see, that was'nt so hard was it?

separating snake oil from the rest of audio will definitely help.

How about if everyone gets a participation trophy? 

GOOD LUCK WITH THAT DUDE!!!!!

Against the idea. But if it comes to fruition tweak the title of the sub-forum to Madhatters and Enfusiasts.

Also once again someone posts you have to buy and try the product to have an opinion. Balderdash. Not possible. Have to peel away the marketing and emotion and produce some credible argument. Love the $17 fuses btw. That speaks volumes.

Tubebuffer, please post in your native language. 

I'll be pleased to see the back of them.

Tweaks will be defined as passive items that are no direct part of signal generation or  transmission.  No mention will be made of any element that is not a tweak as defined.

OP's other rules will ensure a happy warm mutually reinforcing rose-tinted haze.

Bye-bye tweakers.

A good point, tyray.

But, from what I've discerned, I don't believe the threads are being shut down because of discord. I believe they are being shut down for being repetitive, as there were several fuse threads all basically taking identical paths.

thecarpathian and builder3,

Thank you for your thoughtful insight, responses and lessons. Much appreciated.

But it still is a shame that when discourse is added to like minded sharing discussion, the moderators get triggered somehow and shut it down.

And the one(s) that do bring discourse know this and said like minded sharing discussions are stopped, abrutly.

The Bill of Rights are restrictions on government, not Audiogon. This is essentially private property, and you don’t have any guarantee of free speech here.

Exactly right. More than a few of you seem to not know this. Private entities make their own Bill of Rights. Your right to free speech as stated in our country’s Bill of Rights does not extend to said entities. When you join a social media outlet, you agree to and abide by their rules, or they reserve the right to ban you. If you don't care for their rules, you have the freedom of choice to not join. This is a fact some of you should remember the next time a thread gets political and certain members start griping about how our right to free speech is being stifled on Twitter or Facebook. When it comes to these entities, you never had it to begin with. And no, I don’t agree with you. You’re not obligated to read every poster. Don’t like what someone has to say, takes less than a second to skip by it. Even less time to not respond.

Posts that express skepticism (without making absolute negative statements), ask tough questions, or request more information are welcome.

I happen to consider that concession is reasonably sufficient for most contributers to not have to be concerned about getting banned for harbouring thought crimes.

In the meantime, I might dust off my copy of Animal Farm.

Audiogon’s broad spectom of posters is not quite ’hifi’ hard core "enough" to put enough premium on listening perception respect to allow for tweak discussions that don’t become class warfare.

we get into elitism, and degrees of social consciousness, needs to ’fix’ deluded subjectivists, or extreme sarcasim, when more than a paper clip is used for tweaks.

yes, i’m exagerating a little. but only a little.

it takes a commitment to respecting listening perceptions to get to the point where they get respected more than the need for quasi political statements. personally i come here for hifi talk, and to interact about hifi, and leave my baggage at the door.

whether it’s a good thing, or a bad thing, other hifi forums have crossed into more the listening subjective arena where those type discussions go forward for a long time without condescention......mostly. unlikely that happens here.

there are certainly worse, less hospitable places for listening respect than here too. Audiogon is what it is, a commercial enterprise wanting everyone to be here, whatever their viewpoint. nothing sacred really. since the forum users are not in charge. much on the positive side too. i like Audiogon and have been here over 20 years. but the majority of my hifi posting is elsewhere.

Let'er rip!

Laissez-faire forum for me.

No censorship please.

So if someone disagrees, just censor them? Kinda like Twitter and the MSM cancel culture? What next? Tweek mandates?

Recognizing that it's not the same thing as an open forum thread, is it possible to have a group discussion via DM if there's a group of like minded people that want to share some ideas without unbelivers horning in on the discussion?

Funny you should start this discussion, as I just sent a message to Tammy with my own concerns.

I joined this group because I am a beginner and I want to learn more about how to create a better sounding system.  However, nearly every discussion is interrupted by someone cute remarks and criticizim.  I think they do so is because they are insecure and they also want to show off their knowledge.  If they want to show off their kowledge, why not contribute their remarks in a helpful way.  It is like passing it forward.  That to me is the spirit of what this hobby and discussion group should be.  There are some very knowledgeable people in this group so let's use that knowledge in a positive way so we can do what we are supposed to do and that is to help others learn and grow.  We should all be excited about helping others in a positive way,  

There are some great people in this group so let's make it fun.

"What do you think?"    

I think that if you ask a question, make a statement or recommend something, you are, by default, inviting people to respond. As long as people are polite and respectful, then they should not be subject to your rules of engagement. 

It seems your goal is to stifle anyone that doesn't just nod their head in agreement to whatever you post. 

Hey Frank, tommylion, Tablejockey and others here that have taken the time to graciously share fuse tweeks with us, this is for you:

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/1021/Acme_Audio_Labs_Silver_Cryo_Fuses_Review.htm

The Acme Audio Labs - Small Silver Cryo w/CFC coating fuses for $17.90 a pop. Check em out...

And it’s my understanding when ordering fuses from Acme Audio Labs, you can ask them to ’match’ fuses.

At this time I don’t know exactly what that means but it sounds similar to testing/matching vacuum tubes when multiples are needed for seperates of gear.

Peace Brothers

I'd like three buttons: like (thumb up), dislike (thumb down) as YouTube, and hide (ignore) as FaceBook. That way each has control over his/her own timeline viewing.

There are those who wish to discuss, and there are trolls. It's not about censorship, it's about behavior. The adults would like to discuss, the trolls want to sit in mom's basement throwing Cheetos at us. 

I joined a while ago and in fact I was a member many years ago but I tend to stay in the background because of the animosity here. I've been an audiophile since the 80s and we were ridiculed back then 4 improvements that couldn't be measured. I'm sad my beloved hobby has regressed even more in the intervening years. If you were to create a safe haven for these ideas I would be far more willing to participate in the dialogue here.

cd318,

Your comment:

"If a product is good enough to make it on its own merit, then it's good to withstand closer inspection, isn't it?"

Although this is true, the abuse comes from those who have never tried a given product yet comment on its inability to improve sound quality. That is not the "closer inspection" comments that allow a product to "make it on its own merit". Unfortunately, it seems to happen all the time.