Adding a “safe haven” forum for discussion of tweaks?
I think we can all agree that threads about tweaks like fuses, stones, mats, power conditioners etc. stir up all kinds of controversy, conflict and ill will.
Short of banning discussion of these controversial topics, is there another solution to this problem?
I got this idea from teo_audio’s comments about a solution implemented at Canuck audio on another thread:
“Canuck audio tames it by having a cable and tweak area for threads. Where any counter to the idea that such things are functional (in attempt or in analysis), is not tolerated.
Meaning.. threads where people discuss tweaks, or mods or cables and so on, if a naysayer posts there, and interrupts the discussion, in any way, they get their posts deleted. And...if the given naysayer can’t hold their tongue, after said deletion-ish warnings..... they will, rapidly, via any repeats in behavior, find themselves banned from the forum. They have to grow up, or get lost.”
You may not like parts of his description, but I think the idea has real merit.
I propose a new “safe haven” sub-forum, with some special rules, for the discussion of tweaks. These rules would ONLY apply to this specific sub-forum, the current rules would continue as they are in all other areas.
The special rules would be along these lines:
Posts that categorically deny the possibility of tweaks having any effect or value are not allowed.
Posts proclaiming tweaks to be “scams” “cons” etc. are not allowed.
Posts that directly state, or imply, that another poster is lying, are not allowed.
Posts that make absolute negative statements like “Science proves it can’t work.” are not allowed.
Posts demanding measurements, controlled listening tests etc. are not allowed.
Posts that express skepticism (without making absolute negative statements), ask tough questions, or request more information are welcome.
Of course, some who hold the above opinions may object, but they would still be able to express those opinions in all other parts of the forum, just like they always have.
What do you think?
i understand your point... but i think that my post is related to this topic... If someone else think it is not related to the topic or off topic like you think, i will erase my post... My best to you....
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@mahgister , I will request that you delete your post, not because you said anything wrong, but because it is totally off topic, and that is what this thread is about really, staying on topic. I sent you one response privately. | ||||||||
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If someone own a perfectly controllled refine DSP system, like cindyment, for sure he will not need cable, fuses, or Schuman generators...Nor a complete grid of Helmholtz resonators fine tuned for the speakers...The ancestor of electronical DSP is mechanical Helmholtz equalization of a room....😊 I am pretty sure our friend cindyment know that... Because anybody who knows enough about DSP can reach a good S.Q. without that.... Myself i dont use DSP, i am not knowleadgeable in DSP and dont have the money to buy it, i used some homemade devices for controlling vibrations for example.... I used Helmholtz method in acoustic at peanuts costs... But i dont denigrate the power of DSP... It is ridiculous then to denigrate other ways... Like controlling acoustics or vibrations or even other controversials devices... The only important matter is that it is not money who give a good sound most of the times but experiments and ELEMENTARY science....At peanuts costs if we know what to do.... Then someone could be right with DSP control or like me with my homemade devices...It is useless to argue for one and denigrate the others... The more important truth is elementary science is enough....at low costs... i develop at no cost my own way to control mechanical,electrical,and acoustical embeddings of the system... The most powerful being Helmholtz method... is it better than DSP ? No... But it cost me NOTHING and it is so good all my 7 headphones sleep forever in a drawer... The truth of one sometimes dont contradict the truth of another because the world of possible experiences is so vast it can accomodate many perspectives...
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Let me give you my take on this. I will even state that I think most tweaks are ludicrous. I think threads on the latest color of SR fuse while Ted laughs his way to the bank are 3rd level ludicrous. So that is where I am coming from. So how do I "police" myself? Best to give examples - Someone starts a thread who has bought purple SR fuses and want to discuss it. Have at it. I am not going to participate - Someone starts a thread and says hey, I have the orange SR fuse, and I am considering the purple fuse, and wants to discuss it. Have at it, I am not going to participate. - Someone starts a thread and says I have never used fuses and I am considering it, what do people think? That I will participate in, and whether you believe in fuses or not, you should have no expectation of being able to say anything you want without having to defend it. The old mantra sticks, entitled to your own opinion, not our own facts. - Now if someone says I am thinking of trying fuses, can people who have used fancy audio fuses before give me some feedback, well then again, I am not going to participate. The "safe haven" idea works, only if it has specific moderation. I don't really feel that is censorship because almost all "clubs" have some basic membership rules and requirements. If you want a whole website that is a "safe space", that is a bad idea. That is an echo chamber, and everyone in it just stagnates, never learns, never moves forward. Arguing, even heated arguments, on forums, is good. That is the whole point. Nothing ever moves forward if everyone just agrees with everything. It is even okay to say that what someone wrote it stupid, if you give a reasoned argument why you think it is stupid. What is not okay, is to just call someone stupid. What is not okay is to make posts intended to only denigrate someone but have little to no relevance to the thread topic. It took me about 10 posts here to figure out that that happens far far too often here, and it is far too accepted a practice, and there is no hesitation once it starts for others to jump in and do the same thing. There are quite a few posters that should study the list of logical fallacies, and make a concerted effort not to use them. https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/
It all comes back to maturity. You want your "safe haven". Do you feel you earned it? Can you read through that list of logical fallacies above and state confidently that you rarely are guilty of these? Cause if you can't, that "safe haven" will just devolve and become an empty space.
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Does anyone else find it weird just how many times and ways this kind of conversation comes up? Too many members here carrying baggage from past threads (like people in new relationships) on the ready to dump it on a post for the world to see. It only has to have a tangental relationship to what's being discussed and then it's, hey look, someone shat the carpet. All the best, | ||||||||
I think if someone is a soothsayer or attacks someone with a cute sarcastic statement they need to support themselves with facts. I think people need to express themselves and at times disagree with them. They can be polite and also realize there are novices in this group that joined this group to learn. If we lose this, we will lose the spirit of this discussion group. | ||||||||
Been on forums for decades, I was a moderator for Audio asylum for the first couple of years back in the late 90’s. Many of these people have invested lots of money and time into their systems and think they have all the answers. There is a lot of good information and entertaining conversations at times. Best to just deal with it as it will never change. Just think of it as a bunch of colorful characters bursting at the seams to spread their knowledge. Enjoy the forum and the hobby, most of all.. the music. | ||||||||
If it's any consolation, I consider myself to be a fairly open minded skeptic. Open minded in that I am willing to consider that some things that others claim to hear just might be a reality in a system that surpasses the capability of my own. Last night I put two very budget friendly power cables in my system just to satisfy my own curiosity. To my surprise and delight, they made a significant improvement in my system that was far more than I could have expected. I'm still not sure what I believe about power cables when it comes to one being better than another, but I've at least demonstrated to myself that they can make a significant improvement. In my case I was two W Audio cables that are available on Amazon for under $40 each. One is on my Pathos Classic One MkIII amplifier and the other is on my Maverick Audio TubeMagic D2 DAC. The difference was obvious using my other source, so I know the power cord on the amplifier made a difference, it'll take more time to form an informed opinion on the other. | ||||||||
I agree 100%, science is never settled, it is always in flux, and the second you claim that you know it all, especially at the expense of observation, it is no longer science, it has become religion. The Cult of Science is the antithesis of the scientific mind, and it’s process. The irony is extremely thick. | ||||||||
sometimes, it takes a long time for proofs and data for a given noted phenomena to come along to ’scientifically’ explain it. this does not mean the thing was wrong or it was a bunch of hooey from charlatans. Especially when the hearing of the phenomena is consistent, across years and years of anecdotal observation and experimentation.
incompetence in the sciences is sometimes (even... many times) expressed in the realm of negative proofing. where if the proofs don't appear now or easily, then the science backs out of the observation and calls the observation bunk. When, in reality, in science 'observation is king'. It's the place where science starts, it starts with the observation. it is not the aim of science to debunk observation, it is the job of good science to flesh out some theories, testable ones, in the face of consistent observation.
the weaker mind, the less capable mind (the peter principle alive and well in the sciences).. falls back on negative proofing, book learning and not much else. To use the texts of known things to debunk the new observation. Which is fine, if handled correctly.. but that cannot work in the face of new observed unknowns that are persistent. Debunking persistent observations via text learning is not science, via outright dismissal of the observation -is the enforcement of dogma. There are important lessons here.
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@thecarpathian Just ignore it. | ||||||||
As are the ones posting EUREKA a magic elixir that makes my $400 speakers sound like $4000.00 speakers. So take the lumps we do. "Heart Attack Time" is the translation. Crazy 🤯 Agree with the OP, the guys screaming snake oil every 10 minutes are extremely toxic. They should have their own SCIENCE thread, there they can listen to graphs or whatever else they do all day.
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Straight from a Google search. 🤣 OMI
Whats the meaning of as a cron? A command to an operating system or server for a job that is to be executed at a specified time. ’a cron job’ ’All we need to do is run the client script on the testing servers as a cron job.
That adds up to? Lmao You can’t even make this stuff up.
I’ll peace out before this thread gets deleted as well. | ||||||||
Deaf people pretending to love music is the funniest thing in this world to me :) Every song should have a video attached of a guy signaling in ASL, and also should have smilling picture on the cover of Lord Fauci....who by the way has new snake oil ready to go immediately after the Flu season ends, and the deaf will get in line for that one as well. Rinse Repeat. OOOOMMMMM....NEEEE....KRRRRRONNNNNN!! Good mantra to meditate with :)
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yuviaroraYou can do that, for now....but this anti-science behavior will not be tolerated for long :)
We should refer to anyone who uses the word snake oil as Faucci ;-) | ||||||||
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@dabel You're right...leave everyone's opinions in even if they are completely opposing, as long as they are civil about it. OTOH, I am ready to start a class action against a couple of folks here, because it's obvious they are causing carpel tunnel from excessive scrolling past needed. Cheers, Spencer | ||||||||
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@dabel no, it’s Live and Let Live. My beliefs don’t require other people to believe what I believe in.. But as you are seeing more and more in this modern crazy society, others do not feel the same way....They want you to comply at the point of a gun. This forum is a small microcosm of the same kind of mentality....People that have no first hand experience with modding, tweaks, etc etc go out of their way to insult people that have done all the hard work, and are genuinely willing and excited to share their experiences. At some point, these two diametrically opposed mindsets have to go their own separate ways.... Live and Let Live. | ||||||||
All Wronski mathematics and philosophy is created by an interpolation complex method using the polarities of being and knowledge in a hierarchy , these polarities correspond in their own way to the polarities chosen by Friston and called " Markov blanket"... Wronski was too much in advance on his time with his idea and paradoxically just too soon before the many mathematical revolution like Group theory, set theory and many others which will hide the deepnees of his idea behind an already moving swiftly mathematical revolution... Wronski anticipate Banach idea for example about functional analysis.... Banach said so not me.... | ||||||||
His ideas are very simple and straightforward, but the way he used mathematical concepts to make these idea concrete tools is not simple at all though but not so much difficult than it seems at first sight... His idea to describe perception and action at all levels with the concept of " Markov Blanket" neutralizing then the DECEPTIVE ILLUSORY SEPARATION between all levels of life and lifting the wall between subject and object by a deep mathematization of the polarites between inside flowing of information and the outside flowing of action at all levels of living systems is a complete revolution... No materialism is possible and no solipsism .... It is a return to Spinoza and Goethe and Cassirer against nominalism against after that Descartes dualism, against Kant transcendental representation, against all materialist "naivete" that reign supreme in the last 2 centuries.... It is a return to the RELATION that makes all life only ONE net of beings in a hierarchical reflexion of integrating and interacting minds/body polarities levels organizations... That is my take on Friston... But trust me so great genius Friston is and he is, Goethe contains more ideas and all Friston concepts are in Goethe already...Only his particular mathematization of his polarities was Friston gift to Goethe... Take a look to Wolfgang Schad who use Goethe method to describe all mammals shapes details in a book about their articulate morphology in relation to the polarities between the three main physiological system : the polarity of nerve-sense and metabolic-limb systems and the mediating circulatory-respiratory system... The polarity of Friston about inflowing information and outflowing action are complementary choices of polarities in relation to the goethean Perspective...But the 2 approach are based on the ultimate interprenetrating polarities between outside and inside and subject and phenomena anyway.... Polarities in general being, not external dualities, but internal dynamic and/or reflecting an internal dynamic are not always bi-polar and could be multi-polar...They are reflected internal details or parts of the WHOLE manifested in symbolic forms polarities...Through what Friston called "Markov blanket".... Wolfgang Schad book: http://www.adonispress.org/threefoldness.php
My deepest respect to perhaps someone linked by blood line to the great philosopher and mathematician Hoené Wronski... 😊 | ||||||||
Segregation by affinity choices may be working in Heaven where all is perfect... 😊 😁 or on some other audio forums... But we live on earth, and we are in Audiogon, a test field where we must learn to live TOGETHER when we can... Learning here is the road ... Stars could segregate themselves in an "apparent" perfection...But it is an illusion, even stars encounters other than themselves and learn... Then i try like star to shine on everyone and not segregate between my fellow stars human beings...For sure i prefer some over others, but politeness and communication is the key.... I dont believe nor wait for others to change i have the job to change myself first....
We are like trees which never chose the ground where they are growing and our body is not for us our choice at birth, we are born with it, nor our actual mind is only our choice, we are born with a mind-set of our own, specific, we must learn to make all that our own freeing choices in life...What exist is not FREEDOM but the freeing gesture...The road exist only the way you walk all along it with the shoes you have at the beginning....
But there is hope for humanity in reformation yes... It is coming now... Materialism is DEAD... IDOLS are dead like was saying Nietzsche ... But the actual new vocabulary concepts of a new humanity emerge right now in science and in psychology, in religions ... This new concepts are complex and completely new... In a word for me we go from an external relation to Nature to an intrernal one... Humanity dont use duality now so much but POLARITY...IT BEGINS... It is no more the motto "distinguising to unite" but the motto "distinguishing without separating"... Reform dont need segregation...A new vision dont change phenomenon location so much than the eye of the seer.... And the language of polarities mirror the dynamic working inside and outside the body in ONE FREEING COSMIC GESTURE....
What i called polarities in the Goethe tradition, Friston called them "Markov blanket"...It is a mathematical concept at the heart of his vision.... Karl Friston is one of the geniuses who will change science and who has already done so.......I give it as an example, i know many others... But this one is striking and very powerful genius able to change all biology fields and A.I. He had already...It is not news yet for all to know thats all.... ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HW0JnjgCO3o&t=15s
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@mahgister I don't get why you would constantly keep wanting to get interrupted by rude, disrespectful, belittling, sarcastic, caustic, know it all blowhards. If you are addicted to debating people that couldn't care less about what you have to say, I can somewhat understand that, but even then...all the energy wasted on people that don't really have anything important to the conversation seems like a tremendous waste of time. I would happily reorganize this forum and society as a whole into groups of people that segregate themselves and live peacefully, independently, and away from each other. | ||||||||
"I discovered why i was a bad musician , i lived all my life more used to perceive rythm and harmony than melody, with not much melodical memory but an increase power to perceive forms and dynamical shapes linked to block of chords more than to melodical line... My attention to music is related to spatialization by timing of some chords which appear isolated in my attention window like a geometrical form moving, a surface speaking to me like a human face...This explain why while many listened to beatles in 1964 i was myself immersed in ancient choral music to perceive these moving forms and speaking faces..."
The money is in the melodies! At least in the so-called Popular music.
I’ve always regarded myself as a terrible musician, but this I put down to poor musical memory. Oh how that middle C would drift in my memory...!
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@tsushima1 you will never get your safe space and there will always be challenges to voodoo sciences. Ehhhhh … WTF are you going on about !
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Like i already said we speak of "tweaks" sometimes by ignorance about the method to implement an audio system in its rightfully controlled 3 working dimensions... A tribal isolation of audiophile using matters of interest to each one "in a safe haven " to separate them from each other differences will make this audiogon with no more appeal for many.... i dont come here to speak only about audio, my system is finished and i dont need to upgrade anyway, i come to speak with friends and to speak about the music i listen to... I also tried to create a thread about "seeing sound and music" which would be my thinking about acoustic in the philosophical sense, not tweaks about audio so much, but ideas and perceptions linked to sound and music vision...About acoustic feelings and acoustic perception...
I discovered why i was a bad musician , i lived all my life more used to perceive rythm and harmony than melody, with not much melodical memory but an increase power to perceive forms and dynamical shapes linked to block of chords more than to melodical line... My attention to music is related to spatialization by timing of some chords which appear isolated in my attention window like a geometrical form moving, a surface speaking to me like a human face...This explain why while many listened to beatles in 1964 i was myself immersed in ancient choral music to perceive these moving forms and speaking faces... That explain my difficulty to sing correctly...No musical "ears"...No melody memory so much but a way to make sound visible to my internal "eye"...Probably it is the reason i dreamed to own a high end audio system for all my life...I succeed only very recently with no money invested... My goal now is to create a philosophical adventure on this acoustical road and reformulate all philosophical history through multiple "tags" which punctuated our notion of what a sound and what a musical sound means in the last 2 millenia...and why? Each tag would be also a revelation of the conscious soul history through the way evolve his sound attention and perception....
Sound is feeling and meaning in one..... Meaning is too vast notion to be only a sign, the new philosophy is related to the POLARITY of meaning and sign...Meaning generate sign and die in sign... The new phisosophy will be a Goethean semiotic not a Peircean one... Peirce war ferociously against nominalism all his life without knowing that his conception reducing meaning to sign was an ultimate nominalist residual attempt and stance ...Goethe semiotic by contrast is non nominalist... Because the morphogenesis of sound event is related to a perceived polarity and a genetical insecable polarity which resonate with our internal polarities ...Object and subject BECOME and DIE together... the environment is part of your body and your body part of the environment... There is no way to STAY external observer.... Friston called these polarities "Markov maps" using the theory of a great Russian mathematician... Karl Friston is my new mentor toward a complete new revolution in science...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NIu_dJGyIQI&list=PLnQJF3Qi_4_CGFyisehOpLvbpDhdIe_ld&index=169&t=95s | ||||||||
Yes, I know. It's a metaphor. | ||||||||
@jssmith I do not think this thread was ever about the $1.49 sharpie… I think it was more about segregation and not allowing an opposing view on the subject matter. @tsushima1 all we hear is blah, blah, blah goop, blah, blah, blah tinfoil hats, blah, blah, blah…you will never get your safe space and there will always be challenges to voodoo sciences. Enjoy your day.
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Gravity has been blind tested many many times. So much so that it is now built into our psyches as one of our inherent fears. On another note, epiphanies are almost always triggered from external sources. Epiphanies rarely happen in an echo chamber. Now, whether you subscribe to the 16 personality types of Myers-Briggs, or the Alpha/Beta model, or psychology's "five-factor model", how people act (on forums or otherwise) when confronted with disparate views is very predictable. And therefore, if someone understands the personality types they're dealing with, how you respond (or not) to them should be pre-determined. If someone is frustrated with forums and wants to withdraw because they're debating immutable personalities, well that's just Quixote-ish behavior. If you yourself are immutable, besides gaining validation, what are you doing on a forum? What can be gained by it? If someone is affected by what strangers on a forum think about them then maybe there are other issues. And if proving yourself correct over something as monumentally unimportant as cables, or audio in general, drives you to the point of anger or escape, maybe we should find perspective in the one thing economist John Maynard Keynes actually got right - "In the long run we are all dead." And at that point the folly of applying so much emotion to audio beliefs will become apparant. Well, no it won't, but it would if you were still aware ;). So, if someone wants to believe they can hear the difference green ink makes on a CD, hey, have at it. The most damage that can be done is a wasted $1.49 on a Sharpie. And it's not even my $1.49. | ||||||||
I have a solution....... People on this site should fill in a questionare. 1) Do cables change sound? 2) Do power cables matter? 3) DACs sound different? 4) Do you trust your ears over what you think is scientifically impossible?
If you say no to any of these questions, your replies are automatically invisible to the people who answer yes. we never talk to each other again.... Live happily ever after. | ||||||||
“Science describes the way things happen in terms of theory ……
Blah Blah Blah …… Wikipedia …… Blah Blah Blah ……… Cut n Paste … Blah Blah Blah ……. More Wikipedia …… Blah Blah Blah ....... Even More Wikipedia Blah Blah Blah…….. Even More Cut n Paste ….. Blah Blah Blah …..
But when we live in a world of lies the truth tends to have exactly this sort of controversial effect on people. Think about it.” 🙄 | ||||||||
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