Look at Steve and others who can and will use any tech if they feel it can be done right.
He can't go 24bit multibit converters as there are none made for him to buy, so he has to go DS or get the newer hybrids as shadorne bought up. He uses Analog Devices Delta Sigma chips and one of his quote was "we can select the digital filter with this chip, we can essentially make this Delta- Sigma sound a lot like a NOS R2R DAC" "Because we can select the digital filter with this chip, we can essentially make this Delta-Sigma sound a lot like a NOS R2R DAC, but also supporting hi-res files" Cheers George |
I realize that there are manufacturers who share this view but certainly not all do. Maybe it’s because the ones that don’t Charles, can’t make "discrete R2R dac’s" as the complexity is many many times higher, and they also can’t get R2R dac chips ready made any more. So they don’t have an option but to go to DS or DS hybrid, as these chips are available (and cheap) . BTW: You don’t see anyone going to the trouble of doing a discrete DS or DS/hybrid do you? Why is that? Cheers George |
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You know very well as I do that the output impedance on both are very similar with discrete transistor direct coupled outputs at 40ohms Bricasti and 32ohms Total, and clipping or drive is not the issue for either direct into 100kohm of the Gryphone, nor into the 10kohms of the Lightspeed Attenuator.
Cheers George
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Amen talk2me... Agear
Ditto from me too.
In my opinion when Redbook is replayed through a well implemented R2R Ladder Mutibit Dac, it's amazing, with detail, smoothness and transient attack that todays Delta Sigma, Bitstream, ESS ect ect dacs just can't match.
Cheers George
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Good vinyl has at best 30-40db of channel separation at 1khz, either side of this it's much worse 10-20db, compared to Redbook over 100db all across the audio band.
If you put L&R channel bleed network on the output of a cd to mimic the channel separation of vinyl then cd becomes much like vinyl to listen too, more "monoized" for want of a better word, for those that like vinyl better.
A good thing would be a switch on the back of a cd player/dacs to mimic the channel separation of vinyl.
I've done this, but with a simple crude network that destroys the separation to 30db channel separation right across the band, and to my listening it made many recordings easier to listen to (especially older ones like Beatles ect).
It's not right, but it can be much more pleasing to vinyl lovers, as it doesn't tax the brain as much, and adds a richness to the sound.
Cheers George
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Guidocorona if I could chime in while your waiting for Coli's answer.
I find with Redbook cd, all the Direct Stream ones I've listened too are too relaxed/smooth and uninvolving, much the same as 1 bit, bitstream, delta sigma and ESS type dacs.
You notice this once you've heard a very well implemented R2R Ladder Multibit dac's, they have excitement, drive and boogie factor that doesn't seem to be there with the above.
Too bad the manufacturers are trying to phase out R2R Multibit dac's, they are way harder and more expensive for them to make, and they then charge up to 10 x the price for them.
Cheers George
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Here are some R2R ladder Mutibit Dac chips, my favourite the PCM1704K PCM51 PCM52 PCM53 PCM54 PCM55 PCM56 PCM58P-eng PCM58P-jap PCM60P PCM63P PCM64P PCM67 PCM69 PCM1700 PCM1701 PCM1702 PCM1704 TDA1540-Signetics TDA1540P TDA1541 TDA1541A-R1-S1 TDA1541A-R1-S1-S2 Here is the link to Vas's Dac chip site for the manufacturers data sheets. http://vasiltech.narod.ru/files/_My_pdf-list.txtCheers George |
PS: Please don't everyone hit the above link at once, you may take Vass's server out.
Cheers George
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Mattnshilp "Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD" If you want this and have deep pockets then go with one of these discrete ladder dacs, flagship over $40K http://www.totaldac.com/full_totaldac-eng.htmCheers George |
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Well Wisnon, I just got an order for my product from this customer, who has the "very best" of everything.
And when I asked him what his system was, this is what he listed.
"Pacific Microsonics model 2 (DAC) with a pair of Soulution 701 monoblocks that are driving Magico Q7mkII speakers."
Then I asked him if he would ever consider selling me the PM model 2. "He will never get rid of it and will be buried with it as nothing has ever come close to it", and he has very very deep pockets.
I then asked as a joke for him to leave it in his will, and he said "there is a very long queue for that, for me to stand in line.
George
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"I promise this thread will end up back on the DAC track when the speaker decision has been finalized."
Shouldn't this be done in the speaker forum??
Cheers george
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The Totaldac Server looks to also be R-2R resistor ladder Multibit convertor just like their Totaldac is, this may explain why it sound so good, when compared to Delta Sigma type convertors.
Cheers George
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07-14-15: Agear
Maybe George's clever and cheeky suggestion is the answer.....:) If one has the technical know how and measurement test CD an oscilloscope, it quite simple to do a bleed resistor for a 20hz to 20khz, soldered across left and right output, for a total reduction to 30db channel separation, takes about 10mins to do. And you can make it switchable on the fly. http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1398132150&openflup&2078&4#2078Cheers George |
07-21-15: Jh901
R-2R ladder:
MSB DAC V
totaldac d1-twelve
Which of these other DACs are R2R ladder? It takes time and you have to look at what is using what dac chip. To gain some insight here is the greatest collection of what uses what in CDP and DACs Vasilli has complied a monster list here and you'll get to know which are the Ladder Multibit dacs and which are not. Not everything is there, but you get to know, and draw conclusions from the manufacturers propergander sheets. http://vasiltech.narod.ru/CD-Player-DAC-Transport.htmCheers George |
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Spot on Vyokyong, you said what I didn't have the patience to do. One more thing though there was one more HDCD chip bought out briefly after the famed PMD-100 HDCD, the PMD-200. It was used in my Redbook CD player The Cary 303/200 which also had what I believe to be the last and best R2R Multibit dac ever made in it, the almost extinct PCM1704K dac. Out of the box this is a nice sounding player, but with some serious work http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/227677-using-ad844-i-v-52.html#post4404793 to the I/V and output buffer it is very hard to beat. Cheers George |
Just trying to bring back the thread back on subject.
"Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD"
Cheers George
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TBG
It said this: (It can also handle the DSD signal (via the DoP protocol). Whatever that is?
Cheers George
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So correct me if I'm wrong this DOP protocol on this Thrax dac must switch in a Delta Sigma chip somewhere along the way?
Cheers George
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Thanks Bill as you can tell I'm still a Redbook stalwart, and never delved into DSD as I've never heard it yet, convince me that it's better than a well implemented R2R Ladder Dac playing RedBook.
So it's a bit like when they release earilier/older album that was only ever originally recorded in PCM 44.1
And they bring it out again and say "new high rez" just released of the same thing.
You know it was done only in PCM 44.1 and know it was never re-recorded in hi-rez or dsd, so it's not better just done so it can be resold again to the gullible in dsd format.
Cheers George
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Thanks Bill you kind of echo my thoughts.
From my listening experience if originally recorded in PCM 16/44.1 then the best way to listen is via proper implemented R2R ladder Multibit dac 16/44.1 conversion.
If that same 16/44.1 is played back using Delta Sigma, it worse tha the Multibit
Again if that same recording is re-done into DSD (HiRez) and played back via Delta Sigma type dac to me it is still worse.
The only time DSD "may" to me sound better, is when it's recorded from the beginning using DSD, not that I have ever heard it yet.
And I would like to hear normal mainstream artist, not special one offs of obscure artist/bands just to show off the DSD format.
Cheers George
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Just because it's got an R to R doesn't make it, by default, better. If staying with the title of this thread "Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD" I think it does. As from all I've heard, a well implemented R2R Ladder Multibit Dac whether chip or discrete, run rings around Delta Sigma and all it's variants that are said to be "the best" implementation of it also. R2R Ladder Multibit from what I've heard gives a jump factor, lower mid body and general excitement to the music. Delta Sigma while smooth is unexciting in comparison when doing RedBook. Cheers George |
Ricevs right, the AD1955 is bit of a hybrid a 5bit Multibit and Delta Sigma, no R2R ladder. And far cheaper to manufacture than say a real R2R Ladder like the PCM1704K.
Sounds like an each way bet on the cheap, trying to get what Multibit can do yet still do DSD.
Cheers George
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Mattnshilp.
I only want the best for RedBook replay, as your title states you want also. I have no interest in "Hirez" from what I've heard from it. Because the chips that do do it, don't do RedBook for me as good as Ladder Multibit chips can do.
There seems to be a strong growing trend of the big boys with their top line dacs and cdp going back to using R2R Multibit if not in chip form by doing their own discrete version. This must say something as well.
Cheers George |
I have found Ricevs, with current output R2R ladder dacs, very important is the I/V stage and it has to be done active without feedback, and have posted my experiments and findings here. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/227677-using-ad844-i-v.htmlAD1855 is a true R2R Ladder Multibit dac. From Analogue Devices. "The 18-bit D/A converters use a combination of segmented decoder and R-2R architecture to achieve consistent linearity and differential linearity. The resistors which form the ladder structure are fabricated with silicon chromium thin film. Laser trimming of these resistors further reduces linearity errors resulting in low output distortion." Cheers George |
This is just a short list of hiend CDP/DAC's mainly for the best conversion of RedBook replay that use Multibit be it chip or discrete. There are a couple that do DSD if that's your bag, and there are many more that can be added to this list.
Trinity Dac
Ypsilon Cdt-100
Phasure
MSB Platinum
Total Dac
Audial (Peja Rodgic)
AMR top dac and cdp (Thorsten Loschec)
Light Harmonic
Exasound
Reimyo
CH precision
EC Designs
Cheers George
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10-25-15: Dgarretson
Georgelofi, do you recall if the Theta Gen Va is an R2R? I can't find a spec, but there are some on the forums who believe so. I have one in storage that I haven't listened to in years. If it's an R2R then I'll dust it off for comparison to K-01X. THETA DS PRO GENERATION V 2 or 4 x PCM63P-K + 3 x Motorola 56001 Yes it is Dave, but it's old school, and may sound very good, could even give the K-01X a run. But what it needs is implementation of current thoughts on the I/V (current to voltage stage) to be done on it. As back then they just used text book stuff. With todays hiend I/V stages, if you put one into it, you'll be blown away for RedBook replay, and will sell the K-01X if you don't do DSD. Cheers George |
Dave the PCM63 is very similar to the PCM1704k I use, for a good zero feedback I/V stage to implement into your Theta ferret through this lengthy thread (attached) I started on the AD844 used in zero feeback mode for I/V duties. For your R2R 20bit PCM63 dac's you have in it, they are spec'd at 2mA @ 1.5kohm and would need a three stack of AD844, and use it's own output buffer that's built in also three stack, then you will have magic with RedBook replay. http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/227677-using-ad844-i-v.htmlCheers George |
Sorry the output impedance is not 1.5kohm but 607ohm. Same same.
Cheers George
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I think if you do a search on this there are many posts, and it's the other way around. Multibit is less susceptible to jitter than Delta Sigma.
This is just one that came up.
" Multi-Bit
less sensitive to jitter than delta-sigma
Delta-Sigma
Guaranteed more HF noise
More susceptible to jitter
Can be susceptible to idle tones"
Cheers George
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Sorry Matt, not with incorrect statements like this.
"What makes SD technology immune to jitter?"
And you originally asked, the title to this thread.
"Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD"
Maybe another thread is in order.
"Best Delta Sigma based DAC for Redbook replay."
Cheers George
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10-26-15: Ricevs
Most everyone else can see that implementation is more important then whether the DAC chip is R2R or not....not George...it is everything to him..... From my very first post Ricevs, look first before posting lies. "In my opinion when Redbook is replayed through a well implemented R2R Ladder Mutibit Dac, it's amazing, with detail, smoothness and transient attack that todays Delta Sigma, Bitstream, ESS ect ect dacs just can't match." Cheers George |
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So be it Mattnshilp, you can bury your head in the sand and believe in voodoo that is preached by some here.
On the title of this thread
"Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD"
PS: Roses sound better as they have less jitter even when implemented well.
Cheers George
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Well for starters Jh901 the top of the line MSB uses their own designed discrete version of R2R Ladder Multibit.
"MSB Sign Magnitude R2R DAC
MSB has always known the ladder was a superior conversion method and introduced the world’s first discrete 24 bit Sign Magnitude R2R Ladder DAC. The term Sign Magnitude describes the special architecture we use that dramatically improves the sound of low level signals. Instead of always starting at the lower limit of the signal and adding voltage to reach the music signal, we start at the midpoint, or zero crossing, where music is quiet, and we either add or subtract voltage to get the required signal. Because this requires a much smaller addition or subtraction on average, it can be done much more accurately.
MSB has designed and built a new proprietary R2R architecture that far exceeds the performance of the original ladder DAC design. The performance of a Ladder DAC is defined by the precision of the resistors. There are hundreds of very expensive aerospace grade resistors on each MSB module producing a DAC with a level of precision that is unheard of. The noise floor (the lowest sound that can reproduced), is much lower than most test systems can even measure. But most important to MUSIC rather than TEST SIGNALS, and very different from Delta Sigma DACs the MSB DAC module are most accurate with signals crossing zero, where music actually exists.
Sample Rates
When we talk about digital sample rate we mean the speed of the bits in kHz. CDs are 44.1 kHz (44.1 thousand times per second), and higher resolutions typically go up to 192 kHz with the next generation of hi-res recordings just now available at 384 kHz. MSB DAC modules can operate beyond 5 mHz (5 million times per second), so these modules can receive and reproduce all current formats and conceivable future formats for many years to come. Unlike Delta Sigma DACs the performance of the MSB ladder DAC actually gets better with more bit depth and recording resolution. Low level resolution is recovered to an extraordinary degree"
Cheers George
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Interesting Mattnshilp, the Berkeley have also now with their Reference Dac has gone back to Multibit as well as the MSB, they were both into Delta Sigma (1 Bit) only a couple f years ago.
It will be interesting how they stack up against each other as the EMM Labs is Delta Sigma, all doing RedBook
From Berkeley
"Alpha DAC Reference Series, use multi-bit D/A converters because they provide better performance than 1-bit converters - even DAC’s who advertise “native” DSD compatibility."
Cheers George
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Just type in Multibit or R2R Ladder vs Delta Sigma and you will find articles by those with greater knowledge than most here, on which is the more "bit perfect" way of converting Redbook Digital pcm.
Here is just one from Loss Less, there are many many more I can post up.
"Among the several aspects which constitute D/A audio signal converter performance is the converter microchip itself. We carefully studied the available technologies and then, only after narrowing down the choices to only the four theoretically best choices, we built a device for the sole purpose of comparing these four technically best converter chips. In our device, all conditions were the same for all converter microchips.
The method LessLoss used to evaluate the sonic differences between these four microchips was as scientific as possible. We used electrostatic loudspeakers and headphones (almost massless) in order to minimize loudspeaker coloration of the signals. The opinions of highly regarded audio enthusiasts and professionals were unanimous. These tests showed that, at least subjectively, the PCM 1704 was easily the best.
Converter Chip Technology
We provide two links, one to the manufacturer of the PCM 1704, and one directly to specific data on this microchip.
•Burr-Brown
•PCM 1704
•What the hi-fi magazine Stereophile had to say when the chip was first introduced. (No, we aren't fortunate enough to be able to buy them in the thousands, and no, we don't use the cheaper version, the PCM1704U.)
•The PCM 1704 is out of production and represents the end of the era when quality was first on the minds of DAC engineering laboratories. In today's production, all remaining DAC's are of the Sigma/Delta type. These incorporate more technologies into one chip, including two channels for stereo, volume control, upsampling, and often even clock oscillators of their own. Production costs have been saved, but the issue of quality of sound reproduction is no longer the primary issue.
Many people do not know that the PCM1704 is classified into different categories of perfection. There is the PCM1704U, which is the least expensive and worst lot. Then there are better ones, which are marked PCM1704U-J and PCM1704U-K at the factory. We would like to stress that the LessLoss DAC 2004 uses only the best and most expensive PCM1704’s. We have chosen the best converter and then use only the best lot of these converters.
There is a fundamental difference between the way parallel multibit converters and the sigma/delta type work. The parallel type use a separate cascade of resistors and switches for each dynamic modulation of the audio signal, whereas the sigma/delta type (or one-bit, as they are also called), rely on a constant comparator to define changes in the audio signal's dynamic magnitude. Each method has its own advantages and disadvantages.
The main advantage of multibit conversion is that they are theoretically less susceptible to the influences of clock jitter. Their main disadvantages lie in their sensitivity to the influences of heat fluctuation.
The sigma/delta microchips have the advantage of being less sensitive to heat fluctuations, however, they react very readily to any amount of clock jitter.
We compared, using the scientific method of 'same thermal and electrical conditions', the Burr-Brown PCM1704U-K (parallel), the Analog Devices AD1862N-J (parallel), the Crystal CS43122 (sigma-delta), and the AD1955 (sigma-delta).
Of course, on the theoretical level all of these microchips are superb. Nevertheless, some differences are evident:
•Parallel multibit converters display a distortion spectrum which is more friendly to the ear. This distortion spectrum falls off at a lower frequency than it does in sigma-delta converters.
•At the lower dynamic levels, parallel multibit converters produce a much more esthetic sound than sigma-delta converters.
•Parallel multibit converters produce less sound coloration, and hence the sound is more natural, more lifelike.
•Details and microdynamics are more readily audible using parallel mulitbit converters.
Our empirical tests showed that these differences are indeed audible and that Burr-Brown's PCM 1704 is the very best converter chip in existence today. Earlier achievements in quality such as the legendary PCM63 have been bettered by the PCM 1704."
Cheers George
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10-31-15: Mattnshilp
George's techno babble was great, I enjoyed that actually. But his incessant ranting about there only being ONE and ONLY ONE way to convert digital to analog Seeing you bought my name into it AGAIN, there is only one best way to convert your thread title the BEST WAY, and that with a R2R Multibit dac conversion, properly implemented. "Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD" Not with Delta Sigma based dacs which are good for doing DSD One day when you voodooist get some proper knowledge and understand the "techno babble" you will realize this, one can only live in hope. The reason this thread has so many hits it because of the title, hitters want to know about the best Redbook replay. Not as Agear pointed out, the voodoo junk you guys go on about. No Cheer George |
mikelavigne
MSB Select II is on another level to my ears. and i’m not alone with that conclusion. what i do directly compare the Select II to is my vinyl and RTR tape, as well as other recent digital units in my system. Hi Mike, totally with you. Many many months ago I tried to point the way here, for what the title of this thread is, for the "best dac for Redbook" (which is pcm) replay, you need to go to properly implemented R2R Multibit based dacs, not Delta Sigma based ones as ESS ect. But I got but I got castigated for saying this by some, so I gave up. I wish you all the luck in the world, trying to get them to turn around so they see the forest through the trees.. Cheers George |
Bricasti delta sigma beat the pants off the total dac’s discrete d/a converter chips.
I don't think so, as we did just that for a day at Kramer's, a reviewer for 6 Moons, HIFI Australia, and Audio Esoteric as well as owning Soundstage Australia. His system comprised of the newest Wilson Alexia MkII and the Gryphone Antillion Evo, and I can tell you the Bricasti (latest version) wasn't in the race when compared to the Total Dac with Redbook PCM, so much so Kramer bought a Total Dac. Cheers George |
But I have heard good non R2R beat meh R2R dacs. It’s how you use it
That's why I stipulated, "
you need to go to properly implemented R2R Multibit based dacs" Cheers George |
You can think of the Delta-Sigma as an engine that creates the R2R function repetitively Delta Sigma creates a "facsimile" of Redbook PCM it can never be as bit perfect as properly implemented R2R Multibit. And isn’t that what this thread is all about??? "Absolute top tier DAC for standard res Redbook CD" Cheers George |
