Putting together a reference level system. My Source is predominantly standard 16/44 played from a MacMini using iTunes and Amarra. Some of my music is purchased from iTunes and the rest is ripped from standard CD's. For my tastes in music, my high def catalogues are still limited; so Redbook 16/44 will be my primary source for quite some time.
I'm not spending DCS or MSB money. But $15-20k retail is not out of the question.
Upsampling vs non-upsampling? USB input vs SPDIF?
All opinions welcome.
And I know I need to hear them, but getting these ultra $$$ DAC's into your house for an audition ain't easy.
Looking for musical, emotional, engaging, accurate , with great dimension. Not looking for analytical and sterile.
No Dlcockrum, we haven't heard the Terminator, if it sounds close to a Formula, and then the Formula is then improved that moves the Forumula out ahead doesn't it?
There is no denying that the Terminator may be one of the best affordable dac's but it is hardly cheap at nearly $6k that doesn't mean it isn't a fantastic deal, but as mentioned there are other inexpensive dac's that come close to the best of a much higher price point, the T+A is one, so the the Schitt Yaggy, and I am sure there are others.
The difference between a reference product and one that comes close is difference by degree, and just because something is extremely well made doesn't guarantee you good sound. The Meitner DA2a $25k dac was very well made and employed unique technology from one of the best minds in digital Ed Meitner it still didn't sound as good as the LH Labs or the Formula.
The Esoteric D03 that we had was a 60lb pure dac at $23k and the $15k Meitner Dac 2xse was better sy $8k less.
The point we are making is that there are plenty of storries of great affordable gear that comes close but still fails to exactly emulate some of the best digital.
Mke Lavigne was mentioned as he was an early Aqua adopter and loved the sound on a very expensive system it took a $90k dac to better the Formula for Mike it took a $35k dac in our shop to better the Formula.
Is any piece of hardware worth it? That remains to be seen value is what we place on an item, a Diamond is a hunk of compressed coal why does a stone nicely polished and cut sell for $30k?
You miss the point of our last post, we are not saying anything negative, about Denifrips, it is just that they are very new to the scene and are relatively unproven. Their long term stability is unknown, these are all relevent factors.
Charles1Dad, you may not believe it and say that it is hype but we have compared the Dac 8 to more expensive dacs and when driven correctly the sound is really awesome.
If you check out John Darko's review of the Dac 8 Mr. Darko compared a $4k T+A Dac 8 to the DCS Rossiini and a couple of other expensive dac and his conclusion was that the Dac 8 came quite close.
We do sell way more expensive dacs in our shop it is just how good the dac 8 can sound is why we recommend it so highly, and at this point we have never heard a $4k dac with this kind of sound quality.
A Dac 8 DSD vs the Denefrips would be very interesting.
I think that one has the be careful about a DAC like the T&A DSD 8 when most of the sound is from what looks like poorly implemented filters.
I think the fixation on DACs and their sound is a mistake. Get a good high quality tube preamp with the right tubes and create the tailored sound you want. Simply Connect a high performance SS DAC - any number of Stereophile class A+ will do and many others that Stereophile hasnt reviewed.
Carefully crafted optimal sound does does not need to come out of one box and one box alone.
Synergy anyone?
A high synergy 10K system will beat a poorly matched 100K system.
Thanks for that great post Dave. Appreciated. Irony is that I heard the Ayre QX5 (the one I currently own) vs the T+A DAC in a system I was pretty familiar with and to my ear it wasn't close. It shouldn't be since the Ayre goes for a bit under 6k to 8500 or so, but often times when folks claim a 4500 component sounds better than 'anything' under 10k is fallacy and hyperbole. I have loved the Ayre Codex at under 2k. I felt that it bettered most of the DACs I heard under 5k, but that was a few years ago. It's still a killer for the price, but with all the new dAC's out there under 5k things have changed and will continue to change.
We all win out, but the one thing that we have all concluded is that digital is SOOOO system dependent. I have heard my own DAC in a few different systems now. Each time it was allowed to stay on for a few days and it sounded different. It's got the same sound signature an all, but I haven't loved it in every system. I can honestly say that every DAC that I've heard in multiple systems has sounded differently than I remember. Not scientific, but most of you understand my point. So many variables and between electric and which type of connection you use.......;). YMMV.
Ctsooner, Yes we all have come across audio components that we find consistently very good sounding and we like to share this with others. I don’t question that Audiotroy finds the T+A DAC sounds impressive. However rarely do I find the following phrases to apply when comparing high quality components. "Nothing touches it" "Blew the others away" "Smoked everything " "Made the other sound broken"
Of course I hear differences and prefer one component over a competitor when comparing but not to the degree of the above often used phrases I listed..YMMV. Charles
I would suggest the Schiit modi multibit. I think still at $249. I have both that and 10x more expensive Schiit Yggdrasil. For redbook they sound darn similar and very pleasant. I find the diminishing returns curve very steep for digital. Get the modi and spend your savings on good headphones or speakers.
Good post acoustic, I would only add that the rest of one's system needs to be capable of resolution and detail, which no doubt someone said already in this very long thread( no way I"m going to read all 4000 posts!)
With my current system I can't hear much in the way of differences between two very different stand mount speakers, but I'm waiting for a better pre amp, for starters. I've got the Bifrost Mulibit, btw, and yes one can save and go with the Modi. The Modi doesn't have the latest Schiit USB standard, however, if that matters to anyone.
Interesting CT, except how was the T+A being fed? If you look at Computer Audiophile’s section on the Dac 8 you will find that there are many people who have findings about the Dac 8 that mirror our own.
The common thread is that the Dac 8 needs to be fed quad rate DSD to experirence the full magic that the Dac is capable of. Many computers will not do DSD 512 as they are not fast enough to do the processirng.and most stand alone servers like the Lumin and Aurrender products don't do up or crossconversion at all.
The Dac 8 is acutally a far more advanced Dac then the Ayre which uses a single ESS Dac chip to do the conversion for both DSD and PCM processing. then going to a Ayre FPGA filter.
The Dac 8 is one of the very few dacs that does not turn PCM into DSD or DSD into PCM. The Dac 8 actually has two completely seprate decoding engines, one for each format. The DSD engine is the more special of the two, as the DSD engine uses all proprietary T+A decoding technology vs the PCM engine which uses four Burr Brown Dac chips in a summed operaton.
Wiling to bet you didn’t hear the Dac 8 DSD being fed that kind of playback material.
Audiotroy - that’s a unique requirement of a product. Many servers can’t selectively output all material at that rate. That basically leaves PC sources only, which is fine. So many great products. So many opinions. But let’s keep this at the forum discussion level, not pushy salesperson level (which your scratching the surface of).
There are are some great points made recently:
1) a well done $10k system can sound better then a poorly done $100k system. 2) gear is system dependent and matching is everything! 3) declare the signature of your system with a primary component like speakers, amp or pre-amp and then adjust flavor with all other components. 4) your gear may sound awesome in your system and not so great in someone else’s. 5) your audition of a piece of equipment may have been suboptimal due to poor implementation of the unit.
DAve/Troy, I am not going into your sales pitch in this thread. I have way too much respect for Matt and everyone has learned over your posts in other threads, that you are always correct adn your gear is best regardless of cost, until some of us go and audition it in your home/store. We will leave it at that out of respect for Matt.
by Matt:
There are are some great points made recently:
1) a well done $10k system can sound better then a poorly done $100k system. 2) gear is system dependent and matching is everything! 3) declare the signature of your system with a primary component like speakers, amp or pre-amp and then adjust flavor with all other components. 4) your gear may sound awesome in your system and not so great in someone else’s. 5) your audition of a piece of equipment may have been suboptimal due to poor implementation of the unit.
All great stuff!!!
Yes, this is a long thread and to me, the best I've personally read on the forums. As has been discussed so many times on in this thread, it's totally about not just implementation , but all the other digital variables that everyone will have in their own room. Some of the isolation devices/set ups work GREAT and help tremendously. Only a few makers of gear have implemented any of these in their devices as most don't even offer ethernet connection for the source. Ayre has an optical isolation device right in front of their ethernet input daughter board. It's a very expensive say to implement ethernet, but it sounds great.
Steve, have you ever heard of this or tried this on your devices? I ask you, only because I know you and how much R&D you personally do.
This is ONLY for manufacturer's in this thread if I may ask. For those of you who even have an ethernet connection, do you also do optical isolation? I have a strong feeling that eventually we are going to see many DAC's use this connection option and many servers will eventually output this way. Most folks will never want to set their own device up, and it seems to the lay person a great way to get rid of some of the nasties in this type of connection. Thanks. so much. Hope I haven't ruffled any feathers as that's the last thing I want to do. Thanks.
Been a while since I posted here. My conclusion regarding Ethernet optical vs. RJ45 copper. Optical causes magnitude more jitter but removes electrical noise in your network. A quiet well implemented network with LPS, audiophile design network switch and clean AC power source, stick with RJ45 and excellent cable: per Steve Nugent, Wire World Platinum silver at $$. If you have my situation and a noisy, piss poor implemented network with horrid AC power. Go Optical and address the jitter with a re-clocker or quality dac/ethernet input, audiophile Ethernet switch.
I have seen these measurements and as Steve Nugent has said, devil is in the details. New products are being developed out of Korea that address network issues and engineering with optical technology was a non-starter. This leads me to conclude that similar issues associated with Toslink apply here.
To me, jitter by network does not make sense as data is sent in packets and there is a check sum for errors with Ethernet.
I can speak for Empirical, as most who have his products do. I wish his interchange was capable of RAAT protocol that ROON uses.
Ketch, how are you man? Call me this weekend. I have been thinking about you. Thanks for sharing this. I have The Memory Player coming in with integrated DAC, so I won't have to concern myself with USB or Ethernet, lol. I'm hoping that they can figure out the Roon situation also and soon as I do want to use it if possibly (without it hurting the SQ). This is the same player Matt is using, but he has an external DAC.
I think the fixation on DACs and their sound is a mistake. Get a good high quality tube preamp with the right tubes and create the tailored sound you want. Simply Connect a high performance SS DAC - any number of Stereophile class A+ will do and many others that Stereophile hasnt reviewed.
I agree that a good preamp is more important than the DAC, however they are both important. Easier to find a good DAC than a good preamp unfortunately.
Some of the isolation devices/set ups work GREAT and help tremendously. Only a few makers of gear have implemented any of these in their devices as most don’t even offer ethernet connection for the source. Ayre has an optical isolation device right in front of their ethernet input daughter board. It’s a very expensive way to implement ethernet, but it sounds great.
Steve, have you ever heard of this or tried this on your devices?
I use isolation devices, RF and transformers, in my cabling and components, but not optical.
My system has no ground-loops thanks to these.
The concern I would have with optical is maintaining the edge-rates to get low-jitter.
Steve, do you have an explanation why with Ethernet and data sent in packets and check sum for errors, why jitter exists at all? Although USB is far worse, why Ethernet requires same careful implementation?
Steve, do you have an explanation why with Ethernet and data sent in packets and check sum for errors, why jitter exists at all? Although USB is far worse, why Ethernet requires same careful implementation?
Like USB, it is unexpected.
I can only speculate that maybe the circuits in the Ethernet receiver react differently to slower edge-rates and poor signal integrity. Maybe the setup timing margins are smaller. This might cause the propagated signals to have more jitter.
Most designers don’t realize that digital logic is not perfect. It will be error-free if designed correctly, but avoiding jitter is a whole different ball of wax. It has taken me literally 25 years of designing and experimenting to discover this behavior.
I can only speculate that maybe the circuits in the Ethernet receiver
react differently to slower edge-rates and poor signal integrity. Maybe
the setup timing margins are smaller. This might cause the propagated
signals to have more jitter.
To add to Steve's comment, it seems very conceivable to me that in some and perhaps many less than perfect designs a small but potentially significant fraction of the signal energy received by the Ethernet interface may find its way **around** that circuitry (via grounds, power supplies, parasitic capacitances, etc.), and end up introducing noise onto the signals which control timing of D/A conversion.
All of the energy of a signal doesn't necessarily follow only its intended/ideal pathway. Especially when the signal contains spectral components at very high frequencies, as in the case of Ethernet.
All of the energy of a signal doesn't necessarily follow only its intended/ideal pathway. Especially when the signal contains spectral components at very high frequencies, as in the case of Ethernet.
Very possible that power modulation effects or even RF effects are in play here.
A recent study showed that people who feel emotionally stimulated and get goosebumps from listening to music have a higher ratio of neural activity (visualized on PET scan) between their auditory cortex and emotional center. They actually have more fibers connecting these regions then others do.
I have been saying for a long time how lucky we are that we can elicit the level of enjoyment from both music and its proper reproduction. And that some people simply can’t appreifate it the way we do. Now I have facts to back up my statement.
I read a relatively recent article by the gentlemen who created the usb audio stream transfer standard (I don’t know the technical jargon, I apologize) that compared usb to Ethernet. It lauded the potential advantages of Ethernet but he was of the opinion that it would be quite some time before the benefits of Ethernet streaming would be able to be properly implemented and utilized, as most don’t do it properly. And that usb, when truly done properly, has a long life still ahead of it.
I have discussed this with both Steve and CTsooner. The answer depends on whom you ask. But the basic premise is that until the majority of music servers start to implement a proper dedicated Ethernet music output directed specifically from the server to the DAC (separate from the Ethernet entering the server from the switch or router), we are not getting the most it can offer, not close.
There are only a handful of dac’s that even have a properly implemented Ethernet input. And even fewer music servers that have a properly implemented dedicated Ethernet output. I can honestly only think of 2’ish.
Just because something is theoretically the best doesn’t make its current implementation of that technology the best. Eventually I have no doubt it will be the standard. But for now, with the equipment I have, usb is king.
Good points Matt. The option for now seems to be running Ethernet from the music server into an endpoint that can output USB to the DAC. I will try this in a couple of weeks when I get my DX back after the Gen3 upgrade. Endpoint will be the SOtM trio. I would like to try the DJM Electronics GigaFOILv4
fiber optic isolation
filter on the Ethernet line but it does not seem to be available for purchase yet....their website says it is "currently undergoing regulatory review."
I was looking at that also. My server will have the DAC installed, so I don't worry about this connection. I just like this idea and hope it works out.
We talk about introducing jitter on ethernet, but what about the ethernet connection from my Eero mesh router into my server? Should I try optical isolation here or just a nice ethernet cable only? Just curious what Steve and others think (Ketch???)
currently i'm using the new MSB 'Roon capable' Ethernet Renderer on the MSB Select II, and then using the SGM server as the Roon host. i'm able to A/B that to the SGM with USB.
they are too close to call so far, with a very, very slight nod to the new Renderer.
there is a new 'Evo Spec' upgrade coming for the SGM server. when that happens i will see whether that upsets the stand off.
i've also run some optical cable in my conduit from my NAS to my audio room where the MSB and SGM are, so we will see how that might change things, as well as trying other Gigaswitches and linear power supplies.
at the top of the food chain, it's not yet clear where this is going.
We talk about introducing jitter on ethernet, but what about the ethernet connection from my Eero mesh router into my server? Should I try optical isolation here or just a nice ethernet cable only?
The primary improvement seems to occur in the last connection of Ethernet before the DAC. If your server is Ethernet driven, but S/PDIF or USB to the DAC, then good cables and isolator as well as upgraded LPS for the router will probably make a difference. It makes a difference with my Sonos driving my Synchro-Mesh reclocker with S/PDIF.
Thanks Steve. So should I use one of my extra LPS's with my router and my modem? I have two extra's from Wyred for Sound sitting there that I can use for both of them I think (any reason I couldn't?).
Fast-reacting qualities of a power supply is not talked about with manufacturers/reviews much less actual published measurements.
For those here who use optical interface in their Ethernet network, do you noticed improvement with LPS in your internet switch or router located before conversion to the optical signal?
Yes' there is an improvement using LPS for the router and FMC , Im using the W4S LPS1 and do not know if its fast acting or not but there is clearly an audible difference with the LPS then without. I even have the LPS,s plugged into a power conditioner.
For the FMC nearest the Dac I use a battery. I actually have 2 batteries for this so when one runs down I simply hook up the 2nd battery.
Ok, so now I won't freak out about not using this LPS unit that I purchased. I will use it for the router.
Ketch, you need to call later today if you are able to. We really need to catch up. I read Steve's thoughts on the optical conversion and added jitter. I am now wondering if one of the filters may be better sounding.
I think that's one of the biggest things in the basic ethernet connection to the network for servers etc.. I stream Tidal, so I need to be hooked up to the net. Probably going to use the Audioquest Diamond ethernet to the Eero nest type router. If this IS my set up eventually, I need to figure out (with help guys ;) ) what filter or isolation to do. Thanks all.
I just purchased some WireWorld Cat8 cables and a Platinum power cord for my new yet to arrive dac, which is being sent to Matt to play with first.
What is being said here mirrors extensive research on Computer Audiophile in the past. Adding an LPS to everything in my network, I am best served to keep all non-audiophile required items wireless and have LPS to each NAS, Audiophile Switch, router and maybe modem. Add in expensive cable...costs are similar to a new system!
With the ton of noise injected from switch power supplies in my house, my office AC line being by far the worse, the only other option than optical is a series of galvanic isolation units. I have observed benefit with multiple units but other have not in their system.
I think Giso brand is better than most but I have not tried all of them out there now.
So I have a Lampy Big 7 (most recent generation) warming up as we speak. Looking forward to hearing it. And a visit with a Pacific incoming. The new Big 7 is built nothing like the original versions, it’s in a different reality to be honest. The original Big 6 & 7 I saw and heard looked like they were built in someone’s garage (because they were). Needless to say that’s not the case any longer. Keep an eye out for my formal evaluation upcoming.
Sorry ive been slow recently, and haven’t posted a video in some time. Work and family have been insane.
Matt, watched your latest video. Thanks for posting.
So if the sound is not as good with the new set up, the question is what are the reasons? Is it because of an increase in airborne/ structural vibrations or are your power arrangements not as good with this set up? Or all three?
What can be done to reduce these vibrations with this set up and still retain the benefits of shorter cable runs?
New digital transports worth considering from EVO 432, Antipodes CX/EX and EERA.
Aequo loudspeakers were using the new modular Antipodes series CX and EX server/renders fed to the new Mola Mola Tambaqui stand alone dac. The CX/EX combo is said to be better than the DX. The Tambaqui is Roon ready and has both 3.6 jack and balanced headphone connections and at a price point that should seriously challenge DAVE.
The other noteable new dac was the Analog Domain DAC 1.
Rough price guide Antipodes combo about £10k, Mola Mola Tambaqui £9k, Analog Domain DAC1 £18k.
Hey guys. With the help of Sam from Laufer Tecnik I got he drivers up and running for the Lampizator Big 7 DAC. Had a brief issue with one of the sets of tubes crackling quite a bit, but Fred from Lampy USA had generously sent several sets of tubes so a quick swap and I was up and running. Initial impression seam very good, but I’m going to let it run for a few days before I do any critical listening. I had to use a single ended to xlr adapter to hook it up since the DAC has single ended outputs (xlr is an option) and my preamp is xlr only. Once I get a chance to listen (hoping for Wednesday) then I’ll report.
I’m also working on getting in the new Innuos Zenith Statement server to give you guys a report. And I have arranged for the top tier TotalDAC to grace my presence I. July. I’m also working on auditioning the Tidal DAC. Lots in the works.
And i also owe you guys a review on my Shunmook Giant Diamond Resonators.
I just moved my rack (yesterday) back to its side position. The front position was a fail. So it will stay on the side.
Oh, I’m also expecting my new external power supply for my Memory Player.
So glad you got the rack moved back befor the Lampi demos! I hope the XLR adapters don't hamper performance or perception to much. Adapters IME have always added a level of degradation.
Jrigfy- I 100% agree. As you are all aware, I am obsessed about keeping variables to a minimum. Same interconnects, power cords, vibration isolation, digital interconnects, break in, everything. The only variable should be the actual equipment being compared. On occasion, I get a single ended output only device and have to do the best I can to keep everything as similar as possible. 👍🏻
Looking forward to your impressions about Big 7 and Pacific. Also, very curious about new Antipodes CX + EX combo. Maybe you will have an opportunity to audition them as well.
For what it's worth, I own the Formula and one thing it does not lack is air or detail. Also, I don't have the xHD upgrade yet. Also, I've heard some of the best DACs (MSB, Aries Cerat, TotalDAC, DCS) and the best I've heard, to my ears is the TD 12.
@abedirov I see your DX sitting there and I will be happy to have mine back from Antipodes today in its new Gen3 form (with the V4X electronics). I am going to set it up this weekend running a short CAT 7 wire from the DX to the latest SOtM ultra triad that will serve as the endpoint (or renderer) then a very short USB from the SOtM tx-USBultra Signal Regenerator into my Pavane Level 3 DAC. That set-up should be sort of like running the CX + EX combo except with the SOtM stuff as the endpoint instead of the EX. I still want to try Metrum's Ambre as a ROON endpoint but them not seeming to have ROON certification yet plus no support for Squeezelite/Squeezebox led me to try the SOtM gear first. Metrum keeps upgrading however and now has MQA and I2S modules that are user-installable into my DAC so trying the Ambre as a ROON endpoint with I2S directly into the Pavane is an attractive option. Once they have it all sorted out, I will probably pick up the Ambre and the two modules and compare that set-up with what I will have this weekend using the SOtM gear.
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