A friend told me JBL DD67000 is actually very bad speaker, is it true?
According to him, those Tidal, Kharma, YG, Magico, Vivid G1, Grande Focal and German Physik are truely good speakers, JBL ain't no good...and his reasons: JBL is boxy, horny coloration as hell, zero imaging.
He is telling you that because he reads the audio rags and wants to sound smart. JBL is an old, mainstay name and can't possibly make a speaker that would compete against the current darlings in the audiophile world.
While attending AXPONA this past April, I am ashamed to admit that I walked into the JBL suite with these same preconceived notions about JBL. I walked out over an hour later smiling because I just heard the best speakers at the show - the Everest DD67000's. The presence they projected made music simply sound real. And with all types of music too. I did not hear this truth and presence in sound with the above darlings that were also at the show.
I now know what's possible with high end audio speakers and they were JBL's. Bravo Harman International!
I'm no fan of their current powered mini-monitors at all, but I haven't heard the high efficiency or high output types in a long time. Worth checking out.
Also, a lot of boutique speakers get extra "imaging" but putting a dip in the response at 2.4 kHz or thereabouts. It's a trade off of timbral neutrality for it.
For price though, I'd probably forego the consumer horns and see how much the pro studio monitors were running instead such as the M2.
Your friend highlights the gulf between differing persons' preferences in this hobby. It should be pretty obvious that as there are many different tastes in music, so also there are many different tastes in music reproduction for the home. There are sizable variances in how transducers produce sound, and the discerning audiophile will recognize that. To simply condemn certain types of speakers as no good is grossly ignorant ( I suspect your friend is actually stating his preferences strongly). You will want to find your optimum sound and then naturally will feel these genre of speakers are superior. But, be prepared as many will sense just the opposite. You will find that things such as imaging, tonality, coloration degree from cabinet contribution, etc. will become very important to you as well if you delve into the hobby deeper.
I tend to enjoy speakers with less perceived cabinet contribution, and spend quite a bit of time with panel speakers for that reason. However, I can appreciate why many adore speakers with cabinet contribution. It's a classic case of YMMV.
coli, as you can glean from other posts of mine on this forum I am and always have been a big fan of JBL. Terrific sounding speakers in general and of course some models better than others. That said, I wouldn’t go as far as to say "their newest designs are the best value in audio right now, nothing comes even close" Consider a pair of GoldenEar Triton 1. In my view the T1s are a far better value. JBL cannot compete at a $5K price point. Higher end JBLs are phenomenal, but you pay for it dearly with big $$$$. (hence the reason "best value" can be scrutinized)
If you can afford to purchase the 67000 then you can afford to go demo them at some point. If you are spending that kind of cash, then you certainly should audition and see what you like.
I have the S3900's and they image like crazy, but what I really like is that instruments, particularly guitars, drums and vocals sound real. I also prefer rock music and the JBL's do it justice. Dynamic without being bright and just a bit midrange forward.
I can also appreciate a great panel speaker. I've demoed upper end Martin Logan's multiple times and for acoustic music, vocals, piano they are fantastic and if I could own a second system I certainly would consider them.
But besides listening if you want to be scientific I suppose I would ask if someone doesn't think Harman International doesn't have the resources to test their speakers beyond that of most other companies? I love little companies also (like Salk who makes a great speaker). But to think the big boys don't have more testing resources is naive.
The JBL DD67000 are a great speaker for listen to Chinese Drums etc.The latest JBL are using cutting edge technology and great for those who like there Bass.....
I have the same experience as paranee. JBL (I believe it was DD67000) was the best sounding speaker at the show, unexpectedly. Now I’m curious about their less expensive or older models, and wondering if they are still as good as the DD67000.
Hey I read it in hifi magazines too and even heard Junky But Loud, but when I hooked up 4312 to 10w tube amp, I realized that they ROCK, sing and dance -- in other words "full service".
Why would you listen to anyone.....these pages are for reference and community spirit. When it comes time to spend money you should verify your own purchase.
What are more current thoughts on the everest... 3 years later?
The JBL Everest DD67000’s (the latest iteration I heard) to my ears are great speakers, despite perhaps being somewhat compromised by the mids horn profile (likely dictated by the choice of design aesthetics). They sport an unforced, relaxed presence with proper "image" size, are rather coherent, and are dynamically very astute.
I’d wager the horn profiles of the JBL M2 and 4367 are better, not to say it necessarily makes them more capable allround performers, but they are very, very good in their own right, at much cheaper at that (though lacking the overall wallop of the Everest’s).
I hope JBL with an upcoming new iteration of the Everest will apply their latest mids/tweeter horn profile (in solid wood, perhaps, or maybe even better: stacked plywood?) that isn’t compromised by enclosure design choices - as is, form-follows-function, and not the other way round - and not least turn them into all-horns. It would mean a more substantial, sculptural "package," and one likely missing a few hertz in the bottom range, but instead with true, very high sensitivity at +100dB’s and a potentially even more coherent, vibrant presentation. Bring it on, JBL.
“What are more current thoughts on the everest... 3 years later?”
I’ve owned the 67k for about four years and I couldn’t be happier with them. I auditioned dozens of big names and found a couple that imaged about as well and handled some sorts of music about as well, but none could even approach the level of ease that the JBLs bring to large scale orchestral music, Bach organ concerti, percussion, and big-dynamic rock. They are simply relaxed with those things, but then I can put Stan Getz vinyl on the turntable and he appears in the room, complete with the delicate details of his sax’s reed. My next project is to put an Elekit TU8600s SET on them to see if 96 db efficiency will allow them to perform well on small ensembles of various sorts. At a lower price point, the Project Array 1400 has a lot of the same qualities but with more limited dynamics, but not as limited as most of the Everests’ competition.
Doodle, Interesting for sure. JBL’s lack of US marketing is interesting to say the least but there seems to be consistently good impressions/reviews/measurements of their latest offerings (specifically the 4367 and M2).
I have thought about buying the 4367 from music direct and just taking the gamble (low risk with 60 day trial) but they push my budget so just not sure yet. I have not heard a horn that I really liked (I like some aspects) but I still want to try lol.
I’ve been a fan of JBLs since I bought my first pair (L-150) in ‘75 or ‘76. I’ve owned a lot of cone drivers over the years but almost all of my large format speakers have used horns. I did have a pair of Bozak Concert Grands, B-110 IIRC, but they were a let-down. After reading all the hype about Kevin Voeck’s work, I acquired a pair of Salon 2s, and they’re still set up in a second system, just to compare a great all cone design to the JBLs. At the end of the day, they just can’t even get close to the JBLs. I would encourage you to audition the M2.
I also like the Salons and have come to the same place as you on a cheaper scale.
After listening to a bunch of different stuff I have come to understand that I am super picky about frequency response (flat) and impulse response (impact or transients). Which has lead me to the Revel 328be/228be or the JBL 4367 (M2s are out of my price range with the amps needed).
I think I would like to try the 4367 but the deals might just be too good on the Revels not to try them. Several pairs around at 60% retail and at 100% retail I feel they are still a good value.
I will high pass any speaker I buy with subs at 60hz or so.
I feel that revel is very good technically but lacks a bit of dynamics. Many highend speakers have the same issue imo. I feel that the 328be was a bit more dynamic than the salon 2 (I heard them in the same room) but it could be psychoacoustic as I have head a few people comment they failed to tell them apart in a blind test. It also might be real as the 328be is more efficient and let the amp drive them better (MC462 for the demo, also an amp I own).
I have read the thread about Salon/M2 double blind test done at harman which was very interesting to say the least. Which peak my interest on JBL. I demoed all the Klipsch line as the dealer is 10 minutes alway. They did not do anything for me. I disliked the Cornwall IV enough to have pause about buying the JBL 4367. Not that they could/should sound anything alike but the form factor is pretty similar and I have very little horn experience.
Anyway I like hearing about the big JBLs. They always seem exotic but still in reach.
If not the DD67000's - which are really rather much more sonically capable and fleshed out than their smaller siblings, incl. the M2's to my ears - I'd go with actively driven Meyer Sound pro series speakers (Acheron/Studio) and add some big, high efficiency subs.
As a general observation: midrange horn size matters, indeed the bigger they are the less they sound like horns. Modern horn profiles only do so much if they're size restricted (most are), why I'd rather have an older profile horn that maintains directivity control in its entire operating range to make for better coupling with the driver section below.
And let's not forget the importance of sheer displacement below the midrange; dual 15" drivers (or a single or two horn-loaded) do for the vital frequency range they cover what singles can't equal, and so isn't about magic dust or other obscure recipe to accomplish. And when they're high-passed to be relieved of LF-duties and sub-augmented here it only makes them sound better (while adding further headroom) in their upper frequency range.
A couple 9V batteries in crossover? I just read the D67000 manual and it says the internal crossover has a couple 9V batteries to keep the crossover energized. Has anyone heard of this approach before and does any other speaker manufacturer do this?
Fiesta - Yes Vandersteen has been doing this for almost 20 years…. and with more than 9v The amps use same tech applied to IC and speaker wires but 128 V …. trade secret uses in other places…
The 9 volt batteries keep a constant charge on the capacitors in the crossover. Similar to a class A amp where the transistors are always on. (I think this idea came from Ed Meitner.)
Actually, the big JBL is a wonderful speaker.....VPI uses it for the definitive test for their highest end turntables.
For the record, Harry Weissfeld, the VPI founder, loves our Bob Carver Amazing Line Source speakers so much, he purchased them RETAIL because we stopped production (lost money on every pair we sold--required 400 hand soldered connections on each system), and they are his reference in his home.
After owning very large horn speakers for 36 years, all speakers especially horns are extremely dependent on amplifiers and room acoustics.
A solid state amplifier will make my horns sound very forward (minimal to no sound stage), harsh, and loud. High Negative Feedback (NFB) amps will make them sound thin, two dimensional, like cardboard, and all the life sucked out of them. Honky. Yes. Honky.
A good SET valve/tube amplifier (sometimes a good SS amp too) will make them not sound honky and 3D to the point where more than one musician asked, "Do you have additional speakers 20 or 30 feet beyond the walls?"
Most amps suffer the James Webb telescope effect, i.e. the amps are more visible and subject to showing their idle noise, e.g. tube rush, rectifier hash, transformer hum, etc. Some highly touted amplifiers sound like crap because the noise at idle or during low-level classical music passages make them unusable. Sad really.
Someone said, "Why can't the world make a good 5w SET amp?" Most amps are noisy with 105dB sensitivity transducers. The same amps sound glorious on speakers that are only 96dB. Problem? Yes. There is a lot of content missing.
How so? From a pro musician listening to 105dB speakers, "I thought i knew this recording? I guess I did not. I'm hearing nuances and notes, that I did not know were there." Same musician, same recording, on my 90dB ESLs, "Okay. Now I don't hear those nuance and notes. I am missing a lot of the recording."
James Webb vs Mount Palomar. Both good, but both different. The first views the beginning of time. The second views the visible universe.
I own two systems. One is sensitive low power and the other is insensitive high current. Some recordings are better suited for one or the other. Perfect systems do not exist--only different.
I have not even covered room acoustics. You can treat a room, but remember that you are only "fooling your ears" into thinking that the room is fixed. It is not. The bad acoustics still exist. You just cannot hear them, because they are filtered out.
The master composers wrote music for churches, because they had high > 56 ft./71m. Why? No standing waves at 20hz. They had calculus back then too. :)
Question for S2000. How would Mcintosh C2500 (tube preamp) and Mcintosh MC302 ( 300 watts) work with horns? Disregard room acoustics as you mentioned,as important. I ask because interested in Klipsh Cornwall 4's. No experience with horns.
Once you hear a good JBL system, it will match anything. Plane and simple.
No I'm not currently using horn, but it doesn't mean I wouldn't. Me it's a room size issue. Horns need room. Great horns cost money, to buy and run. A cheap amp, source material or source player will stand out like a sore thumb.. JBL Everest will show every single flaw in equipment, or sound like heaven with a large enough room, acoustics and great gear..
Everest series are wonderful speakers. BIG footprint too... They don't fall over in earthquakes either.. :-)
Actually, the big JBL is a wonderful speaker.....VPI uses it for the definitive test for their highest end turntables.
For the record, Harry Weissfeld, the VPI founder, loves our Bob Carver Amazing Line Source speakers so much, he purchased them RETAIL because we stopped production (lost money on every pair we sold--required 400 hand soldered connections on each system), and they are his reference in his home. "
Correction. Harry Weisfeld owns and uses Apollo 12 speakers in his home for personal enjoyment and the VPI house (showroom) has Apollo 9 speakers on permanent display.
At the 2021 CAF show the VPI group exhibited in two large rooms. In one room they were showing the JBL Everest with T+A electronics and an optical cartridge. In the other room they were showing the Apollo 12s with all ARC Ref electronic, their new Avenger Direct-Drive and a new VPI cartridge. When asked by a reviewer which speaker system he liked the best Harry said "I own them both and love them both". He went on to say the JBLs are like a voluptuous full-figured woman and the Apollos are like an athletic super model and then said "take your pick". Obviously to a male group.
According to him, those Tidal, Kharma, YG, Magico, Vivid G1, Grande Focal and German Physik are truely good speakers, JBL ain't no good...and his reasons: JBL is boxy, horny coloration as hell, zero imaging.
is this true?
It all depends on what one is looking for in an audio system.
If one is looking for that big, dynamic, lively "rocking" sound, the JBLs might be a good choice.
But, if someone is looking for a more detailed, open, more neutral, more accurate (timbre, harmonically), better imaging, speaker, the others will do that better. At a substantially higher price.
As you might have surmised, I agree with your friend.
JBL speakers come of as a bit of a 'blunt tool' to me. They make everything sound as it it is coming from a high quality PA system. They don't get out of the way of the music, they always impart their sound.
Also, I agree, that they offer no real imaging. They create a big wide soundstage, but no real layering, or imaging, within that soundstage.
I have heard: Everest's, Summit's, L100's, and a few more.
"According to him, those Tidal, Kharma, YG, Magico, Vivid G1, Grande Focal and German Physik are truely good speakers, JBL ain’t no good...and his reasons: JBL is boxy, horny coloration as hell, zero imaging.
is this true?
It all depends on what one is looking for in an audio system.
If one is looking for that big, dynamic, lively "rocking" sound, the JBLs might be a good choice.
But, if someone is looking for a more detailed, open, more neutral, more accurate (timbre, harmonically), better imaging, speaker, the others will do that better. At a substantially higher price.
..."
It also depends on who’s making a statement like the above. Yes, I as well find the DD67000’s to provide a (in your words) "big, dynamic, lively "rocking" sound," but to my ears that in no way excludes them of most of the traits you’re lining up in the last quoted paragraph.
For one I find they image extremely well, but it’s more of a projected-into-the-listening-space kind of presentation that ignites the air, rather than the more laid-back, "spacious" (overly so, in my point of view) and thinner sound that comes from many of the brands of speakers you mention (especially the German Physik’s). Aspects of the Everest’s sound may have character, but I find it’s much less intrusive compared to speakers that are dynamically restrained, malnourished overall and less present sounding. Talk about character.
You describe them as (albeit high quality) brutes, which is a typical statement of many an audiophile; whatever possesses dynamics and full-bodied sound by definition almost must be devoid of nuance/subtleties, transparency, accuracy and spatial capabilities - indeed, haven’t we heard that before. God forbid power and presence of presentation, "hi-fi" is about the finer things where you listen to softened up music in what’s effectively an audio version of the past tense. Bollock’s, I say. This kind of "hi-fi" is what really imparts character to reproduced music and it sucks the life out of it. Or, shall we say: to each their own?
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