3 New UBER Decks - Is this Turntable's SwanSong? 🦢

Old cartridges you and I agree on, and I admire your stamina in continuing to repeat this message over and over again on this Forum.
I’ve long ago given up on offering advice to people who essentially don’t want it.....🤭
But the message has obviously gotten out.
When I first began buying old cartridges on EBay 15 years ago.....good examples cost $200-$300.
Today those same cartridges are regularly going for $500-$1,000 so hundreds of audiophiles have gotten the message....even if most of them might be in Japan 😛

Haha, gotcha :))

And don’t forget ’old’ tonearms......
People are conditioned to think that ’modern’ is better and that ’progress and technology’ continually improve things
It’s true for many things like cars and computers but for traditional, well-understood crafts like watchmaking and analogue HiFi equipment, it ain’t necessarily so.

Finally, I decided to upload the gallery of my modern and vintage components in my virtual system page, If they will not limit me technically there must be tons of pictures showing the evolution of my system. I upload pictures everyday. I want to show people that vintage high-end stuff is cool in a combination with modern analog gear.

+2 audioguy85, you're damn right.

No need to spend $$$$$$ on a turntable  You can have perfect performance for £10,000, maybe less.  All the extra dough just buys you bling and a lot of overweight metal.

But the reality is he is now 74 years old by my reckoning.

Hey Dover.....
I resemble that remark 🥴
I think you're being unduly harsh on Mikey...

What I am saying is that Fremers comments are conditioned by his own historical imperfect equipment. Unless you have been listening to the exact same equipment for the same amount of time, then his comments are irrelevant in absolute terms - all they are are impressions from someone of whom you have no idea what they are hearing.

Well that's the same for ALL audio reviewers.....
If you don't read reviews because of this, that's your business.

After reading Mikey's reviews for 30 years or so...I think I know what his preferences are and he never makes a secret of them.
I also knew the preferences of the much-lamented Art Dudley but I don't feel the need to buy an idler-drive with Ortofon arm and SPU cartridge.
Nor do I need to buy Shindo amplification and DeVore Fidelity Orangutan speakers to appreciate his reviews and intimate writings.

I also believe I know the preferences of Jonathan Valin and Arthur Salvatore better than those of Harry Pearson and I enjoy reading ALL their writings.
I pity you if you choose to ignore interesting opinions and writings 😢

I have heaps of respect for all that John Atkinson has done and achieved in this hobby of ours.....but I don't read his reviews simply because he doesn't listen to vinyl!!!
He cannot hear the same way I do so his views are irrelevant to me...
I DO however, read his technical tests 👍

They can’t tell that old high-end DDs are better (and 100 times cheaper) than some new high-end DDs. Same about cartridges.

Old cartridges you and I agree on, and I admire your stamina in continuing to repeat this message over and over again on this Forum.
I've long ago given up on offering advice to people who essentially don't want it.....🤭
But the message has obviously gotten out.
When I first began buying old cartridges on EBay 15 years ago.....good examples cost $200-$300.
Today those same cartridges are regularly going for $500-$1,000 so hundreds of audiophiles have gotten the message....even if most of them might be in Japan 😛

And don't forget 'old' tonearms......
People are conditioned to think that 'modern' is better and that 'progress and technology' continually improve things 🤩
It's true for many things like cars and computers but for traditional, well-understood crafts like watchmaking and analogue HiFi equipment, it ain't necessarily so 🤥
Do you really believe a 'modern' Steinway Concert Grand is way better than the same model made 40 years ago?

@antinn 

Some of these uber tables have impressive amounts of engineering, but they have yet to correct the spindle hole centering issue

The wow and flutter induced by eccentric records would far exceed the minor deviations in speed of a decent turntable, and most records are eccentric to some degree. Therefore what relevance does .001 or .0001 speed variation really have ?

In my view what you want is stability, and every direct drive I have heard thus far including the SP10mk3, LO7D, Denon DP100M has been slaughtered by my Final Audio thread drive VTT1 - the DD's sound thin, lacking body, are grainy or have a grey wash through the sound, and the Final has been more resolving of low level detail.

In case you think I'm biased, no, my Final Audio VTT1 weighs 300lbs, the AC motor is driven from a sinewave and cosine wave generator, power amplifier, Oracle MIT interconnect and speaker cable and if I could find a single box turntable that sounded better I'd be very happy. By the way the 26kg platter can be brought up to full speed in less than one platter rotation depending on how much torque I dial up on the controller.

My gut feel with historical top end DD's is that error correction servos, like digital, are doing the damage.

I know one well respected top end TT designer who has provided design services for a DD for another top end company and his solution was to provide a soft error recovery spread over multiple revolutions simlar to the Victor 101 error correction system.

I met Michael Fremer in the 80’s - he’s a lovely guy, but the reality is he is now 74 years old by my reckoning.
The chances that he can set up a top end turntable accurately is remote.
The chances that his hearing is up to par is not high.

I always remember a comment in Hifi News in the early 80’s - if you have been listening to an amplifier with a narrow dip at 3k for a period of time, then any accurate (flat) amplifier will sound bright, because your brain has adjusted to the imperfections - it compensates.

What I am saying is that Fremers comments are conditioned by hs own historical imperfect equipment. Unless you have been listening to the exact same equipment for the same amount of time, then his comments are irrelevent in absolute terms - all they are are impressions from someone of whom you have no idea what they are hearing.

Unfortunately, due to reliance on advertising revenue, audio reviews have become like car magazines - advertorials - where only the positives are discussed, and no at length comparisions as in the hey days of TAS.

You only find out about the flaws when the upgrade comes out the following year.

Fremer can chew the fun outta yer gum with unreadable turntable tweaking articles. Makes you wonder why anybody would bother with vinyl, but vinyl is a current unstoppable success anyway (Swan Song? Huh?). Notice Fremer thought the silly Synergistic Research turntable PHT (tiny and expensive metal JuJuBe, do not eat these!) worked great, and then ignored them completely in every review since. You go Mikey!

In my honest opinion, beyond a certain point, it is pretty hard to hear a discernable difference between numerous well constructed turntables at a moderate price level. I do not think these uber expensive decks bring as much to the "table" as one is led to believe, except maybe eye candy (subjective) and expensive materials. 

That OMA thing is the ugliest BS I’ve ever seen.

But wouldn’t it be great if someone WOULD review products from the past against the modern equivalent?

They will never do that in high-end press, it will destroy the strategy of constant price increasing for new stuff. They want to live today without anything from the past (except maybe for old records), “new is always better” in their world. They can’t tell that an old high-end DDs are better (and 100 times cheaper) than some new high-end DDs. Same about cartridges. 

@halcro There's a number of times he mentioned a bias to the lower end. And others where finger clicks were muted and brass wasn't bright. Read it again. One thing I have found over the years is that when a reviewer mentions something, you can multiple the effect. 

Michael Fremer did not start writing for Sterophile until the 90's.

@
jallan"to this day why folks spend hundreds of thousands on elaborate mechanical devices to play such a seriously flawed media as records. Tape is better"…hahahaha,I remember in about 1981 being thrown out of a Linn dealer in Larkspur Landing,Cali.for commenting on how bad the snap crackle pop was on some god awfully expensive tt set up compared to the then new Marantz CD63..
"And I throw my hat in with the digital streaming folks for bang for the buck and most realism. It’s a far cry from 10 years ago…"100% agreed!It has taken some 20+ years but pure Class A solid state & digital media have replaced tubes for me & never did like vinyl..
Oh regarding my comment on guru Fremmer I’m talking late 1980 early ’81 when he first came on with Stereophile.He was new,digital was new,Marantz was making a cd player that actually made music & he was emphatic about digitals supremacy..Dig around in the Stereophile archives,I bet it’s still in there somewhere..

Back in the day when I was selling stereo equipment putting myself through school, we had both a Revox A700 and B77 in the store. Also sold B&O. I slummed with an Ariston RD11S at home with a Grace arm.

the Revox decks had substantially more “slam” and sense of dynamic realism than vinyl did. I think of how much better sounding those decks were with the few recordings we had in the shop, and wonder to this day why folks spend hundreds of thousands on elaborate mechanical devices to play such a seriously flawed media as records. Tape is better…

And I throw my hat in with the digital streaming folks for bang for the buck and most realism. It’s a far cry from 10 years ago…

You vinyl junkies do know that WAYYY back,sometime early 80’s,that "guru"Fremer DID NOT EVEN OWN A TT & in Stereophile magazine STATED DIGITAL WOULD BE KING!!!

My turntable has a swansong recording on it as I type. Sounds good. 

Just for the record....if Mikey claims that the OMA-K3 produced the BEST speed and wow/flutter figures of any turntable he has ever tested...

CHART INFO OMA-K3 

CHART INFO VICTOR TT-101 

Then the savvy engineers at Victor in Japan, managed to produce a better turntable 40 years ago!!!! 😂

OMA states on their Website:-

The design of K3's mechanicals is the work of a team led by Richard Krebs in New Zealand, the world's foremost authority on direct drive turntable technology.

Perhaps a Footnote is needed:-

Assuming all the Engineers at Technics, Victor, Pioneer, Yamaha, Kenwood et al are now deceased?

I don’t have a problem with Mikey’s reviews of these three turntables....
He doesn’t pronounce a ’winner’ and he treads a diplomatic path between all three which is understandable considering the huge costs each manufacturer bore in relation to delivering, unpacking, assembling, disassembling, re-packing and transporting these beasts.

None of them would be happy to receive criticism for their troubles....🥴

Mikey basically said, in so many words, that the Air Force was dull and plodding.

No he didn’t!

.....he’ll be disappointed that I DIDN’T write that "the K3 blows the fat, sluggish, energy-retaining AirForce Zero out of the water."

If one reads between the lines of his conclusions.....you wouldn’t imagine that Mikey will be trading in his beloved Continuum Caliburn, although I wouldn’t be surprised (given his relationship with Marc Gomez) if he added the SAT XD-1 to his listening room 🤔

The glaring flaw here is Mikey is no longer accurate with his 
opinions. Good  digital has not only closed the gap but has surpassed turntables in many areas .a turntable for example is very limited in Dynamics,Low Bass ,noise levels S/N ratio ,Dynamic range and only capable of 12.5 bits.  And digital is still progressing Today finally for $10 k or under digital surpasses analog , and as a Huge bonus no more having to clean ,replace cartridges,needles, and Millions of songs to choose from .
I owned several very high quality turntables ,10 years ago and then 
Turntables had a bug Sonic advantages .today  no way I would 
consider the hassle ,when dollar for Dollar Digital gives much more 
on average .If you want to spend $40k on a turntable enjoy it it sounds great , but tor Thst kind of monies Digital can do more 
on many levels . 

@antinn thx for the link to Triplaner review. An excellent arm that has been improved since. Wish the panel had listened to it w Accuphase also.

I'm surprised he found room in his basement for three decks. Maybe converted the hot water tank to on-demand?

Dear friends : Through the years I learned to read MF reviews with some " salt " where to really know what he listened or like it I have to read in " between " lines.
Here the Rega RP10 and SAT reviews:


https://www.stereophile.com/content/rega-planar-10-turntable-rb3000-tonearm-apheta-3-phono-cartridge...

https://www.stereophile.com/content/analog-corner-304-sat-xd1-record-player-page-2

and this is his point of view comparing in between TTs performance with not only a wide but way wider difference in the TTs price:

"""  The XD1 shares some sonic characteristics with Rega's revolutionary RP 10 turntable: ultrafast, clean transients throughout the audible frequency range; tight, fast bass; revealing midrange transparency; and overall sonic stability and focus. All these characteristics result, apparently, from careful attention paid to structural rigidity and the removal or prevention of unwanted vibrational energy. ""

But in both reviews he does not posted " something/problem " he was aware due to what we look on both charts.

So the question about that speed measures and chart is that in reality has a real value for us when listened in our each one system or if in reality is useless due that this " excercise " is only a small part of all the overall analog imperfections that impedes to isolate one single characteristic.


""  The fact that these products exist and apparently satisfy a demand says something about the current state of our society,... ""

yes and other that the spended money by the owners the real " true " is that all were " deceit " by the AHEE because the design and manufacture of a TT is not a rocket science and we all can see that through many years there is nothing new about: turntables still are turntables but just more expensive units.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@lewm

One is scientifically measurable and the other is inescapably a subjective judgement.

I was implying frequency response, resonance and noise suppression etc. I assume they too are measurable.

Glory hellaylulah.
I truly believe that Mikey hears stuff that I can't.
Blessing or curse?

Noromance, but “best speed stability, etc” and “accurate reproduction of the master” are two very different criteria. One is scientifically measurable and the other is inescapably a subjective judgement. However to reach the latter goal wouldn’t you want to have reached the first goal (absolute speed stability) along the way?

Henry, thanks for pointing out the issues with those graphs that MF likes to publish.

Does this mean that the OMA-K3 is the most accurate turntable of these three decks.....or maybe of ALL turntables?

No. it may mean it has the best speed stability and accuracy to an absolute reference figure. But not necessarily the most accurate reproduction of the master.

My record collection is increasing in value at a far better rate than my 401k! Records and turntables are not playing any swansongs.

Mikey basically said, in so many words,  that the Air Force was dull and plodding. Not what I want from that outlay. I heard one at XPONA through $250k speakers and it was a mediocre experience for me.

These reviews are mostly purely subjective, and as such makes comparison subjective.  Here is an objective review of a Wheaton Tri-Planar II Tonearm circa 1988 -  Wheaton Tri-Planar II Tonearm (Jun. 1988) (gammaelectronics.xyz).  30-yrs ago, this type of review was common.  Some called foul upon this level detail which was valid in the days of the amplifier wars; others have since lost interest in this level of detail. 

Some of these uber tables have impressive amounts of engineering, but they have yet to correct the spindle hole centering issue that the Nakamichi table Nakamichi TX-1000 on thevintageknob.org tackled years ago.  But Technica is probably the only company today with the resources that could tackle that problem.  Although the complexity of the Techdas indicates that they also may have the resources.  

So, far from a swan-song for the 'ancient' turntable.  If vinyl sales continue their trend, and money continues to spare no expense, more 'advanced' turntables are sure to follow.

how much is the dust cover?

Who cares?

The emperor’s new clothes and not very pretty at that. The OMA gets my vote for winning the ’ugliest turntable’ award, the SAT for ’most overpriced’, the TechDas for ’most over engineered’. The fact that these products exist and apparently satisfy a demand says something about the current state of our society, does it not?

These are just trophies for the rich, who probably couldn’t care less about performance. It won’t bother them at all if these contraptions don’t have better speed accurancy than ’normally’ priced (for us!) turntables, or even turntables built decades ago. Same ’logic’ as 100k wristwatches I guess.

It puts a new ’spin’ on the closing words on Zappa’s Lumpy Gravy: ’cause round things are boring’......