3 New UBER Decks - Is this Turntable's SwanSong? 🦢

With regards to speed stability only 3 tables I believe take the crown.

Rockport Sirius III

Grand Prix Audio TTs

Wave Kinetics Reference

All in the 0.000~% (according to their measurements of course)

The OMA, Techdas and SAT measure measure rather poorly tbh

 

 

 

My Thorens TD 124mkII, not even working at a full 100% is giving me readings of +- 0.04% speed variations. Wow 0.03. I’m confident i’ll be lowering those numbers even Further with a few mods. 1500 rpm 4 pole motor = no cogging. Same with lencos and Garrards. I suspect the EMT would measure even better because of it’s massive 16 inch platter. Also forget about noise. That problem has been solved years ago with high mass plinths and vibration transfer.

"you fail to understand"  Presumptuous.

"cutting lathes have a 70-80lb flywheel and significantly more drive power than most domestic direct drives".   

Correct - the process is controlled by the DIRECT DRIVE motor.

'The dynamics of a cutting lathe and its requirements are quite different to the dynamics of replaying a record'.

It is the same signal - the lathe requires much higher torque to cut the disk – replay is a smaller load – proportionally how much different I don’t know.

"does not mean direct drive is in of itself a bad thing"

What do you mean?

Do you mean direct drive can be good? 

Or in K3's case a stunningly spectacular achievement: Michael Fremer tells us so, despite your take down of the man. He is a terrifically fit 74 - his apparent age likely isn't much different to you. Michael reports K3 is a cartridge differentiation champ eg "an utterly natural, transparent, and convincing presentation via the Anna D with airy flute roundness, sparkling, effervescent percussion, and zero overhang." 

"blows the chrome doors off the Caliburn" ... Michael Fremer.

Another poster wrote:  every DD I have heard sounds thin, lacking body, are grainy or have a grey wash through the sound, possibly due to error correction servos.

Seemingly these DDs were not good examples of the technology ie made to a price, as the majority of  cutting lathes were/are DIRECT DRIVE.

If you are going to bash DD you have to throw out the DD cutting lathes and drive them with a rubber band.

What you fail to understand is that most cutting lathes have a 70-80lb flywheel and significantly more drive power than most domestic direct drives. - even the Kenwood, Technics & Victor. The dynamics of a cutting lathe and its requirements are quite different to the dynamics of replaying a record.

And you appear unable to comprehend that critiquing specific examples of direct drive does not mean that direct drive is in of itself a bad thing.

 

 Lewm9 wrote

But “best speed stability, etc” and “accurate reproduction of the master” are two different criteria. One is scientifically measurable and the other is inescapably a subjective judgement. However to reach the latter goal wouldn’t you want to have reached the first goal (absolute speed stability) along the way?

The man (lewm9) is correct – how could it be otherwise. If K3 was say 75% less accurate (a wobbly jelly) could it approach “accurate reproduction of the master.”  Don’t think so.

Another poster wrote:  every DD I have heard sounds thin, lacking body, are grainy or have a grey wash through the sound, possibly due to error correction servos.

Seemingly these DDs were not good examples of the technology ie made to a price, as the majority of  cutting lathes were/are DIRECT DRIVE.

If you are going to bash DD you have to throw out the DD cutting lathes and drive them with a rubber band.

Last night I was in a classical mood. Three European classical pressings from the late 70's were right on the money, dead accurate. Compare that to three modern Blue Note pressings, all off. One was so bad I sent it back.

@rauliruegas , Since our last discussion I have been playing close attention to the centricity of records. It is very disappointing. They also do vary form one side to the other, a lot!  Even such vaunted labels as Analog Production are not well centered. 
I did some research and found this. Go to 8:40   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_GBlzcaWlo
0.2 mm tolerance? My back side. Many records are pressed off by three times as much anyway. I am sure you have seen that. As you see in the video it is due either to operator error or faulty machine calibration which by default is operator error. Every run of records (about 1000) is QCed by pulling a sample and playing it. The QC techs are obviously not paying attention to this. 

Take a test record and with a pointed knife cut away 0.2 mm from one side of the hole and play a 1000 Hz test tone. The tone will wander up and and down. It is painfully obvious to any serious listener. 
I started playing records without looking at the centricity then writing down yes or no next to the title. Yes for concentric, no for out. After 10 records I put them back on the table and gauged their centricity. Picking out continuous notes I was right 8 out of 10 times. I encourage everyone to do this. The only way this will stop is if enough of us complain. There is no excuse not to stay within 0.2 mm. The tech looks at the run out groove under high magnification ( the video shows this!) Either he is off or the Machine is off. Take your pick. Having an accurate turntable does not mean a lot in the face of this type of error. The wow far exceeds the spec of any modern turntable. To gauge centricity draw a black line on a small piece of white paper and place it on the turntable's plinth. Move it around until the line visually lines up with the tip of the finger lift. Then you can watch the tip  of the finger lift float back and forth in relation to the line (reference point) 

What an eye opener!!!

"A man's got to know his limits."

Every analog step adds distortion. Every digital step does not. Everyone is use to mastering for digital now and there are much better utilization of anti aliasing filters. Digital may have had a rough start but everyone now has the hang of it. 

What will happen to pure analog reproduction? If I were a betting man I would give it at most another 50 years. It may have some limited uses sort of like propeller driver aircraft.

noromance

Looks like " sensesundertime" left the house and deleted all posts from their profile which is a shame

Perhaps he was a victim of his own posts. Many of his "facts" were confused and he was struggling to keep up.

Looks like " sensesundertime" left the house and deleted all posts from their profile which is a shame.

Everything made by man is flawed, by how much and how should be the debate. Personally, for those doing the creating I think it stirs the creative juices and market forces to compete and improve. For those of us w open minds, ears and near constant exposure to LP, high speed tape, and digital done well, primacy is not tge discussion point - relative merits / weakness and how to address ARE.

Carry on, my Revox needs an EQ tweak….

Dear @alexberger : """  One my friend prefere EMT948 and Yamaha GT2000 over Kenwood L-07D..""

Sorry, I forgot : Not easy to make evaluations for your friend when all those TTs comes with a different dedicated tonearm.

R.

Dear @senseundertime : "" The microphones, the pre-amps, the tape machines, the cutting lathes, all were seriously flawed and left music behind that will never be recovered. ""

Yes, " left music behind..." that’s part of the whole analog imperfection and that " left music behind.. "" it’s not only in the recording proccess but is followed by the playing proccess at our home places.

I think that all of us know what happened and still happens in the analog imperfect world but the issue is that normally analog lovers are a lot " touchy " and even they feel an " offense " with words and facts as the ones you posted here. I was exactly the same way till I understand the whole recording/play proccess. Yes the analog alternative could be a nigthmare but even that its kind of sound is " appealing " to us in way different ways and yes analog produce its own jitter on playback.

I accepted years ago that today digital alternative puts us nearer to the recording and been a digital technology always is in advancing so maybe the best of digital is forthcoming when analog true developments stopped years ago.

Btw, " Vinyl sales were up... ". Yes but not with really all analog new recordings but mainly ( 90%+ ) re-issues in different " formats " and almost all the few new recordings were recorded digital then transfered to LPs and sounds really good.

All those is a reality but again: so what? for whatever reasons we still like that flawed alternative and this is the important subject. Don’t you think?

R.

You know nothing about it, stick to your digital and stop to brainwash our minds. Nobody forces you to buy vinyl (or turntables).  

Most of the best quality records (classical and jazz) were recorded
from 1956 to 1964.
After that transistor equipment and Dolby started used in studios that caused significant sound quality drop.
   

Nothing made pre 1970 was a technical state of the art recording. Good music but the equipment added so much to the music that was not there.

State of the art recordings made even in the late '50s, and every studio engineer will tell you the same. 

The source for audiophile re-issues made by Analog Production today are old master tapes from the '50s for example. And those tapes are excellent. What they can do with their pimped up pressing plant today on UHQR, flat profile etc., is amazing, but for premium prices! 

Huh? You've got it wrong. Digital is flawed. It's the one sampling and imposing hash noise into the chain. The best of vinyl recordings best anything digital. That is why we do this. Half my collection is pre 1970 recordings. I listen to digital too. It's great. But my best sounds are from analog records.

It’s hard pill to swallow, one that I did long ago but which many audiophiles may never. You may love your turntable sound but recognize you love the flaws. It’s okay.

In reality you don't have to buy even a $10k turntable to enjoy analog records, do not try to justify a $300k turntable made for a small niche of people, it has nothing to do with a real world of music lovers, record collectors, audio enthusiasts.

Most of the greatest records were made a long time before digital was invented. You can enjoy all of them in digital format (we do, actually), but it will never be an original format, those records made in analog over 45 years ago. If you're ok to replace original (analog) with digital copy from the analog then you can do the same with art for example? Just make a digital copy to pretend you own something unique, but It's only an illusion.  
There is a different philosophy behind record collection, you can't replace it with digital illusion (except for music made in digital format from the start).

You post is like saying: "I'm smart, I listen to a perfect digital. You are fools, but it's ok if you're listening to a faulty media formats - old analog records". 

Who cares? 

In fact, each time I read a statement like this I'm sure a poster does not understand why vinyl is a long life media format. Definitely not because of the small group of people who can buy $300k turntables, not even because of the audiophiles in general.  

 

Why is it that these digital vs analog arguments are so prevalent? IMHO, there is room for both formats. Each one has its own benefits and detriments. No wrong, no right. BUT I am very pleased that both are available. IME, Analog sounds better, but it depends on a number of variables.

Dear @sensesundertime : ""  It should be self evident that when 3, $250k (approx) turntables sound different, even to somewhat causal listeners, that turntable and vinyl long ago had their swan song and they are nothing but flawed but lovable relics.  ".

Not exactly  but you are rigth. I like the analog alternative and I like too the digital one. So I know for sure its main differences.

The analog alternative is far away to be not only perfect but near perfect and yes is flawed/imperfect alternative and even that I like it.

It's so imperfect that not only those 3 TTs " sounds "/performs different but you can't find out two TT that " sounds " the same. So what?

Yes, digital is accurated and puts all nearer to the recording: good and again: so what?

I like both.

R.

sensesundertime

If any method is the "best" method, then the penultimate implementations of that method should all approach being the same.

Why would that be? Sometimes, the second-best approach uses a completely different technique. Or, perhaps, you’re trying to impress by using the word "penultimate" without knowing what it means.

Contrast that with digital where when the goal is an accurate implementation ...

What makes you think accuracy is not the goal of analog?

... $10,000 implementations cannot be reliably differentiated from a few $100 dollar implementation when you can’t tell what is playing ...

Do you have any documentation of that, or are you simply repeating someone else’s claim?

Noromance,

it is a separate building too, everything isolated from the rest of the house. See: some 15 years ago
best
E.

I'm sure all three turntables sound wonderful although the OMA makes me squint when I look at it. Mark Dohmann's Helix is a much better value.
@grooves, You have reviewed the Helix and own one of Mark's tables. How do you think it compares?

has anyone used the platter speed app in question on…wait for it…a production record cutting lathe ?

Dear @alexberger : "  One my friend prefere EMT948 and Yamaha GT2000 over Kenwood L-07D  ..."

Well is a preference and maybe the vacuum hold down of the Yamaha could makes that " preference of your friend.

Btw, I would like to see the Kenwood under today speed stability measurements. Next something interesting of its motor and through the link we can read detailed information of each TT part design:


http://www.l-07d.com/motor.htm



R.

@noromance   LOL. There are quite a few folk who have similar listening rooms and gear set ups. There is one gent, who lives up the coast from me, he has built a separate building on his estate just to hold his system, which is even more extensive than Thucans'!. Remember, when we are talking of multi millions of dollars for gear, this is mere chump change for some! Taxes....what are taxes??? 

That’s some listening room. Can’t imagine affording anything like that with college tuition bills and the rest. Probably too late for Mr. Fremer to move out of Brooklyn.
If I wasn’t hobbled by property taxes and healthcare insurance, I could have that too! All things being equal, fellow audiophile friends in Europe with inexpensive or free college, healthcare and low real estate taxes seem to have more cash on hand for living the good life.

Dear @halcro  :   "  why not ask Ron Sutherland to help you set-up Timeline....? "

I think that you did not read or participate in one of  the threads where the Timeline it is not really good for " measure " TT speed stability because can't shows the platter micro speed stability within each revolution that's one critical issue when we are talking of speed stability. That item can't shows rapid speed changes. So Timeline is a true " entertainment ".

It's a useless device for what we are discussing here. But........

R.

Dear friends :: What I posted day before yesterday at Stereophile was looking for an answer from him about the controversies in this thread and not there ( yet ) and here have that answer because that "  for “entertainment purposes only” " is not an answer coming from a very high regarded " professional " reviewer, at least not an " elegant " answer due of what halcro told you: 

""  99.9% of people have no experience with the PlatterSpeed App and simply accept your published results 'on face value'.
Many would also accept them as 'Gospel'...""

@grooves  , so that answer is a must to have not exactly only for our " satisfaction " but for your self and your readers. All analog lovers need to KNOW the true facts on that critical issue.

R.

EMT DD turntable like EMT950 and EMT948
are in the same league as best vintage japanese DD turntables.

Actually, many EMT collectors (especially classical music lovers) prefer 950 over 927 and 930.

One my friend prefere EMT948 and Yamaha GT2000 over Kenwood L-07D and Sp10 mk2. He have or had all of them in his own system.

Maybe one day Mikey got enough from the business and will be able to build up a real listening room 😂

I've had the privilege of visiting Thuchan's Listening Room and should emphasise that whilst he says he has three DIRECT DRIVE turntables both vintage and modern......he also has (and had) many other turntables including the EMT 927 R80, Micro Seiki SX-8000 II, Continuum Criterion with both Cobra and Copperhead Tonearms as well as several Revox B77 Tape Decks.
Here is his BLOG 🤩

So I was able to hear the Victor TT-101 against some formidable opposition and it was certainly not shamed.....
Richard, my best friend, has one of the very first Continuum Caliburns (before Mikeys).
Before that, he had the Rockport Sirius III which was quite a revelation for me.

It took a LONG time for the Western World to give any audiophile creedence to Direct Drive.....

@grooves 
If you'd REALLY like to include an objective, repeatable, scientific and REVEALING test for any turntable.....why not ask Ron Sutherland to help you set-up TIMELINE....?
This test not only reveals VISUALLY...the true ability of a turntable to keep:-

• Accurate Speed
• Constancy of Speed

But is able to display 'in real time'....the effects of STYLUS DRAG!!!

Both Weiss and Krebs pointed out that ONLY direct drive can track and accurately reproduce a record and not be slowed down, however slightly, by the transients and dynamic contrasts presented in a record's grooves.

You could include a LINK in your Review to the applicable YouTube Video.

This could be a revelation in turntable comparison reviewing....
The only drawback could be the commercial pressure from manufacturers whose turntables are revealed for what they really are.....🤥 

I am careful to state that these Platterspeed measurements are for “entertainment purposes only”

Yes....but unfortunately you don't explain WHY!!!
99.9% of people have no experience with the PlatterSpeed App and simply accept your published results 'on face value'.
Many would also accept them as 'Gospel'....🤥

That said, I use the same 7” Feickert test record for every test so while the record isn’t perfect the relative results are 100% accurate.

No they're NOT!!!!!
They are unrepeatable and unreliable.
Do you want me to post the Plots of the same turntable/arm set-up with the test record rotated 1/4 turn...?

Visitors who got to hear all 3 turntables thought they were clearly among the finest they’d heard though all sounded different from one another, and sounded as I’d written (once the reviews were published).

I haven't disputed this....in fact I reinforced the claim that only YOU can offer an opinion on the comparative SOUND of these three decks.
And for that, I for one am grateful...🙏

BTW your Platterspeed chart is a 30 second test thus smooothing out the visual result. I make sure to always take a 60 second sample

Your wish is my command......

65 SECOND PLATTER APP 

70 SECOND PLATTER APP 

Btw and only for your records, I'm not guilty about because what I posted came from one of my my posts,  in 2020,  in that thread where you participated too and where you read what I posted there and even that you read it don't tell me nothing.

Never mind. I will not post your moniker in Agon.


R.

@antinn  , got it. Last time for sure. Don't worry and sorry to disturb you. Apologizes for that.
R.

@rauliruegas,

Please do not bring me back into this conversation.  But, for the record, this is what I said about the SAT:

"However, from my perspective as someone with an engineering background, this table is not breaking any new state of the art. The motor is a modified Technics; the base is a modified Minus-K isolation platform and as far as the plinth, magnesium alloy has been known for over 50 years to provide superior damping qualities....But the review does indicate that a lot of machining was done in Switzerland by the same group that machines parts for Hasselblad (that has a $48K camera w/o lens). So, it is an object where no expense was been spared.

It would have been nice to know how much benefit did the modified Minus-K base provided...Otherwise, the design is very compact and compared to others could be very appealing, especially those that already have a SAT arm. Is this table going to be trickle-down - no; the primary technologies - the motor, the base, the plinth are all tried and true - but not necessarily together. And, it is entirely possible that the table & arm form a ’magical’ synergy that the whole exceeds the sum of the parts and it sounds awesome.".

Otherwise for a blast from the past - here is the Audio 1985 review of the Technics SP -10MK3 TURNTABLE -  Audio-1985-02.pdf (worldradiohistory.com).  

Dear @edgewear : "" However, charging $150.000 for a dressed up Technics turntable is sort of offensive ....""

Yes if you consider the facts of the main whole TT design that in 2020 was analised here on a thread where one of many posts about is this one:

This is what was posted by some one or maybe in the review ( I can't remember. ):
:

""""" is an acceptable price for pushing the boundaries of what is possible with hifi and sound quality """""

Here Agoner comments about:

Who told you that the SAT TT " pushed the boundaries of what is possible....".

The TT apports almost nothing to the TT kind of designs, exist nothing new/novelty or unique that appears for the very first time in the audio history and antinn resumed it in his statements:


""""" this table is not breaking any new state of the art. The motor is a modified Technics; the base is a modified Minus-K isolation platform and as far as the plinth, magnesium alloy has been known for over 50 years to provide superior damping qualities """""

and neither for the hold down LP mechanism.

R.

Dear @halcro  : ""  Platterspeed measurements are for “entertainment purposes only”. All test records are faulty...""

Got it?.  Maybe we took/take audio critical issues really seriously and is how we have to do it.

My worried about is because the platterspeed  charts came fom him in his TT reviews.

As a fact I took it in more than one time those charts as a " reference " in some threads.

R.

@grooves, thanks for your heartfelt concern about my mental state, but jealousy towards people who buy these things is not part of it. You are correct I haven’t heard any of these tables and I never will. I’ve reached an age that denies me the ability to hear the alledged superiority of these turntables anyway, so I couldn’t care less. However, charging $150.000 for a dressed up Technics turntable is sort of offensive and simply begs to be ridiculed. I’ll gladly accomodate..... 😋

Good grief.
Why are you obsessed with only 3 TT's??  There are plenty of great tables without astronomical prices that have exceptional/state of the art speed accuracy.  Try The Merrill-Wiliams 101.3  WWW.realturntable.com

You Tube Video   youtube.com/watch?v=C_EV4DzTOa8

George has been making exquisitely engineered TT for a very long time dating back to his Merrill Heirloom Turntable.

It’s ridiculous!

If the tonearm does not move side to side while playing the record then your record is perfectly centered (perfectly enough, so no one can detect any imperfections in pitch, even trained musicians). The rest is speculations of the most boring people - audiophiles.

Vinyl is a cheap media format to manufacture, off-centered records must be in the recycle bin immediately. Defective records must be returned to the seller/shop whatever, no one will argue about it.

Unfortunately there are off centered records in the market, playing those records everyone can actually see how a tonearm is moving side to side (sometimes it’s 5mm off, and that’s awful, in this case the pitch is noticeably and constantly changing, especially if you are listening to the horn section, for example).

If your tonearm does not move side to side then you don’t have to worry !

If you’re still worried then stick to digital.