3 New UBER Decks - Is this Turntable's SwanSong? 🦢

Dear @alexberger : """  One my friend prefere EMT948 and Yamaha GT2000 over Kenwood L-07D..""

Sorry, I forgot : Not easy to make evaluations for your friend when all those TTs comes with a different dedicated tonearm.

R.

Dear @senseundertime : "" The microphones, the pre-amps, the tape machines, the cutting lathes, all were seriously flawed and left music behind that will never be recovered. ""

Yes, " left music behind..." that’s part of the whole analog imperfection and that " left music behind.. "" it’s not only in the recording proccess but is followed by the playing proccess at our home places.

I think that all of us know what happened and still happens in the analog imperfect world but the issue is that normally analog lovers are a lot " touchy " and even they feel an " offense " with words and facts as the ones you posted here. I was exactly the same way till I understand the whole recording/play proccess. Yes the analog alternative could be a nigthmare but even that its kind of sound is " appealing " to us in way different ways and yes analog produce its own jitter on playback.

I accepted years ago that today digital alternative puts us nearer to the recording and been a digital technology always is in advancing so maybe the best of digital is forthcoming when analog true developments stopped years ago.

Btw, " Vinyl sales were up... ". Yes but not with really all analog new recordings but mainly ( 90%+ ) re-issues in different " formats " and almost all the few new recordings were recorded digital then transfered to LPs and sounds really good.

All those is a reality but again: so what? for whatever reasons we still like that flawed alternative and this is the important subject. Don’t you think?

R.

Dear @sensesundertime : ""  It should be self evident that when 3, $250k (approx) turntables sound different, even to somewhat causal listeners, that turntable and vinyl long ago had their swan song and they are nothing but flawed but lovable relics.  ".

Not exactly  but you are rigth. I like the analog alternative and I like too the digital one. So I know for sure its main differences.

The analog alternative is far away to be not only perfect but near perfect and yes is flawed/imperfect alternative and even that I like it.

It's so imperfect that not only those 3 TTs " sounds "/performs different but you can't find out two TT that " sounds " the same. So what?

Yes, digital is accurated and puts all nearer to the recording: good and again: so what?

I like both.

R.

Dear @alexberger : "  One my friend prefere EMT948 and Yamaha GT2000 over Kenwood L-07D  ..."

Well is a preference and maybe the vacuum hold down of the Yamaha could makes that " preference of your friend.

Btw, I would like to see the Kenwood under today speed stability measurements. Next something interesting of its motor and through the link we can read detailed information of each TT part design:


http://www.l-07d.com/motor.htm



R.

Dear @halcro  :   "  why not ask Ron Sutherland to help you set-up Timeline....? "

I think that you did not read or participate in one of  the threads where the Timeline it is not really good for " measure " TT speed stability because can't shows the platter micro speed stability within each revolution that's one critical issue when we are talking of speed stability. That item can't shows rapid speed changes. So Timeline is a true " entertainment ".

It's a useless device for what we are discussing here. But........

R.

Dear friends :: What I posted day before yesterday at Stereophile was looking for an answer from him about the controversies in this thread and not there ( yet ) and here have that answer because that "  for “entertainment purposes only” " is not an answer coming from a very high regarded " professional " reviewer, at least not an " elegant " answer due of what halcro told you: 

""  99.9% of people have no experience with the PlatterSpeed App and simply accept your published results 'on face value'.
Many would also accept them as 'Gospel'...""

@grooves  , so that answer is a must to have not exactly only for our " satisfaction " but for your self and your readers. All analog lovers need to KNOW the true facts on that critical issue.

R.

Btw and only for your records, I'm not guilty about because what I posted came from one of my my posts,  in 2020,  in that thread where you participated too and where you read what I posted there and even that you read it don't tell me nothing.

Never mind. I will not post your moniker in Agon.


R.

@antinn  , got it. Last time for sure. Don't worry and sorry to disturb you. Apologizes for that.
R.

Dear @edgewear : "" However, charging $150.000 for a dressed up Technics turntable is sort of offensive ....""

Yes if you consider the facts of the main whole TT design that in 2020 was analised here on a thread where one of many posts about is this one:

This is what was posted by some one or maybe in the review ( I can't remember. ):
:

""""" is an acceptable price for pushing the boundaries of what is possible with hifi and sound quality """""

Here Agoner comments about:

Who told you that the SAT TT " pushed the boundaries of what is possible....".

The TT apports almost nothing to the TT kind of designs, exist nothing new/novelty or unique that appears for the very first time in the audio history and antinn resumed it in his statements:


""""" this table is not breaking any new state of the art. The motor is a modified Technics; the base is a modified Minus-K isolation platform and as far as the plinth, magnesium alloy has been known for over 50 years to provide superior damping qualities """""

and neither for the hold down LP mechanism.

R.

Dear @halcro  : ""  Platterspeed measurements are for “entertainment purposes only”. All test records are faulty...""

Got it?.  Maybe we took/take audio critical issues really seriously and is how we have to do it.

My worried about is because the platterspeed  charts came fom him in his TT reviews.

As a fact I took it in more than one time those charts as a " reference " in some threads.

R.

Dear @grooves  : Thank's to come here with your answer. What I posted to you about was with a positive attitude looking for this MF and I never imagine you come here to post on it.

The fully analog imperfections makes that almost any analog subject could be controversial, as this one ( green vs yellow. ). The longer and deepest controversial dialogues takes the analog stages.

In the other side and because no one but you are more close to the LP manufacturers it's " imperative " that the QC be a real and true QC with " zero " tolerance.

You and any single audiophile in the world needs that the LPs be perfect centered ( both sides. ), no surface waves or irregularities and is imperative that those can happens because every one of us ( including you ) spend money and precious time fine tunning each one room/system only for the LP comes an " destroy " the quality level performance of those room/systems.

I know that you understand perfectly and your direct help with all those LP manufacturers is and will be appreciated for those " things " happen in the short time.

Thank's again, appreciated.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, 
R.

Dear friends: For many years now we all were spending " thousands " of $$$$ for our LPs that its prices always goes up and up.

I can't understand for sure why with all those money manufactures took and take for us no single LP pressed is dead-centered on both sides and with out waves/surface irregularities.

In theory we pay more than enough to receive a " perfect " LPs and we just never can do it.

I know that  analog is way imperfect but seems to me that those LP manufacturers are full responsable of that specific issue but we audiophiles are not really demanding about an : accepted as " normal " behavior ! ! ! ? ? ?

R.

Dear @richardkrebs  : "" within its limitations, the platter speed app does give a reasonable snap shot of what the platter is doing and is thus useful in differentiating between TT's ""

I remember that about 15-20 years ago in this same forum we were in a thread making some comparisons between TTs specs and w&f was one " critical " parameter on that comparisons.
Some one there that I can't remember for sure ( I think was T-bone. ) posted that w&f can't tell us the whole true about because we don't know which test record/tonearm/cartridge were used to achieve that w&f figure.

Now, TT Japanese manufacturers ( I think ) knew this " trouble " that could impedes that the spec all of us can be take it as a " reference " but that's what we all have from last 50 years. Does not exist other " standard " for that measures spec and we audiophiles needs " something " as reference.

All de " bibles " on audio items characteristics/specs came in that way either the japanese bible as the information that came from years in magazynes as Audio and Stereo Review and I think High Fidelity too !!!

What BT posted is only useful for each individual system owner with the lab to do it and this just can't happen.

So it's not that reviewers are wrong because that's what they have on hand.

Your wide explanation of the yellow raw frequency is really an eye open and truly welcomed.

It's really easy: we can't do what BT did it to prove that his LT is " superior " and why is that way and his explanation is welcomed too but impractical for us mere mortals.

Try to be scientific in extreme as dover likes is interesting but in this specific regards useless. Yes I learned today from all of you and thank's for that.

R.

@dover  ""  It is not possible to measure wow & flutter using a test record. ""

It's what we have, so no real alternative but to read the raw frequency in the app like it or not.

Dear @halcro : Years ago when every one including you were touted the JVC 101 I posted at least 3 times in those threads ( in your thread. ) that the 101 was an average TT with nothing especial to say Wow.

I know that you was so angry with me because my posts about but its specs are really mediocre/average for a DD unit with a w&f 0.02% and s/n 75db, normal for average TTs. Denons way superior on specs and some of its models came with bi-directional servos too but Denon decided not a good thing and return to single servo including in its top DP-100.

Other that what Richard pointed out a fact is in the price that had the 101 that was low:

The top of the line 801 specs were similar to the average Denon’s: 0.01% and 80db. This unit came with hold down LP mechanism and even that characteristic its price in Japan was 130,000 Yens when the Technics MK3 was ( in the same year. ) 250,000 Yens ( MK2: 150K. ). The 101 was 75K. These data comes from the audio Japan Bible.

Is it a bad TT ? no but you overrated with no clear facts that even today you have not and that’s why you are questioning RK.

Don’t distress about because you are enjoying it and this is what matters to you. So what ! ! the TT still is an average unit and nothing more.

Btw, even with out the RK posts all what I posted here is the same I posted years ago and I just confirmed again. Nothing changed and og course is only an opinion.

R.

Dear @mijostyn : Then probably have to return all your  LPs:

""  One thing to note is that there is nothing to prevent the eccentricity to be different on the two sides of the record. For example, the record may be perfectly centered on one side but off on the other, or it may be off on both sides but in different directions. ""

What do you think on that?. I found it somewhere.

Btw,:

https://blog.fluance.com/off-center-pressings-on-vinyl-lps-what-is-it-and-how-can-you-correct-it/

Now, in the past I bougth an item to " fix " manually the LP off-center and it works fine. I still have it somewhere and I remember that fix it but you need time/patience to do it and in those times I was more or less ignorant of the developed distortions by the off-center LP hole and a little lazy to fix it. The seller disappeared in short time.

R.

Dear friends : @dover  said: "   what you want is stability..." and he is totally rigth because the most important characteristic in a TT is speed stability.

Btw, that his Final TT " slaughtered " all those DD TTs is just his opinion. It's like talk with a tube lover about SS electronics, obviously that for him tubes " slaughtered " SS alternative.

He said too:  ""  My gut feel with historical top end DD's is that error correction servos, like digital, are doing the damage. ""

Obviously that's a " feeling " and here we have to remember that all the record cutting machines motors ( Technics between them ) used servo control. So if this servo correction is the problem why is not " reflected " in our LPs during play. 
I own and owned DD/BD and I can remember to identify that  "  DD's sound thin ...."
I think that's all about the whole room/system performance and not because the DD servo. servo.

Here 2 different interviews to MF:


http://highfidelity.pl/@main-250&lang=en

https://www.monoandstereo.com/2013/06/exclusive-interview-with-michael-fremer.html



R.

Dear friends : Through the years I learned to read MF reviews with some " salt " where to really know what he listened or like it I have to read in " between " lines.
Here the Rega RP10 and SAT reviews:


https://www.stereophile.com/content/rega-planar-10-turntable-rb3000-tonearm-apheta-3-phono-cartridge...

https://www.stereophile.com/content/analog-corner-304-sat-xd1-record-player-page-2

and this is his point of view comparing in between TTs performance with not only a wide but way wider difference in the TTs price:

"""  The XD1 shares some sonic characteristics with Rega's revolutionary RP 10 turntable: ultrafast, clean transients throughout the audible frequency range; tight, fast bass; revealing midrange transparency; and overall sonic stability and focus. All these characteristics result, apparently, from careful attention paid to structural rigidity and the removal or prevention of unwanted vibrational energy. ""

But in both reviews he does not posted " something/problem " he was aware due to what we look on both charts.

So the question about that speed measures and chart is that in reality has a real value for us when listened in our each one system or if in reality is useless due that this " excercise " is only a small part of all the overall analog imperfections that impedes to isolate one single characteristic.


""  The fact that these products exist and apparently satisfy a demand says something about the current state of our society,... ""

yes and other that the spended money by the owners the real " true " is that all were " deceit " by the AHEE because the design and manufacture of a TT is not a rocket science and we all can see that through many years there is nothing new about: turntables still are turntables but just more expensive units.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.