2017 Honest Cabling that doesn’t promote bankruptcy
Looking for experiences and recs for current mid to upper mid level cabling solutions
I’m talking about ICs and Speaker cables that do not require plans for high jacking an armored car with a couple gallons of chloroform and a helicopter with a really big magnet?
Neither is it a matter of seeking out an ‘all system’ same brand and model loom, though it could be.
In Your opinion and or experience which signal cables (or mix of) have proven themselves recently to enable a revealing system to maintain or demonstrate its integrity, truth and musicality on its best level?
Or, in other words, With which current line of wires or ‘cables’ would you feel very confident using to connect your upscale stereo outfit in 2017?
I made a pair of the cables Erik recommends.. they do sound great and are a reasonably inexpensive way to try silver. I ended up making another pair of ICs from solid silver in cotton from vh audio based on a design by @williewonka. I think they sound even better, but I really haven't had a chance to listen as much as I should to form a definite opinion, as I only had them in my system for a couple of weeks before I headed off to Europe. I'm typing this from the Black Forest right now, with my system thousands of miles away.. Here's the williewonka design: http://www.image99.net/blog/files/4127b5fe2694586e383104364360373b-74.html I did a few things differently: I used some of the hyperflex tubing from vh audio instead of the teflon tubing in williewonka's recipe. It's listed on the vh audio site alongside the continuous crystal silver in cotton signal wire. I also used OCC copper magnet wire from eBay for the neutral and did away with the floating shield, as I have a basement listening room and rfi is not an issue.
Last comment. If you pick up used AQ Niagara interconnects you'll never look back. Can be had for 60-70% off if you are patient. Was a $2000m silver cable before newest model came out of which I can't discern the difference. Very smooth and detailed.
+1 milpai Paul at Clear Day lets you try them at no cost. If they don't work for your rig, send them back. The details I am hearing without treble emphasis is fascinating. You can listen further into the music, enjoying details that you may not have heard before.
@ebm I'm not sure how cables can be dishonest as that is a human vice. AND...the Columbias and Colorados are on a half price closeout sale. My entire system is interconnected with Colorados. Nice.
Greetings. Yeah, I am going to side with nonoise referring to the Zu Audio cable line, the LibTec Mk1's would do fine and can still be found. Although I don't completely agree on the termination, as I like the bare wire and/or solid copper spades, I guess it will also depend on your speaker set up connections. I would also like to add the Supra Ply 3.4 as a bare cabling set up, excellent quality and definitely The Best Bang for the Buck (about $12/meter). Best wishes in your pursuit in the great cable hunt... Cheers!
For interconnects when you need clarity without harshness - Mogami wire 2549, 2534, 2528, etc. with neutrik RCA plugs or better. Needs 10-15 hours of burn-in for the bass to fill in properly. Lot of outfits custom make these and they are cheap! Another affordable brand I can recommend is Wireworld if you don't need heavy shielding. Wireworld ICs would be a couple of notches higher in SQ than a similarly priced Audioquest cable IMO. I also think Signal Cable is great value for money and leaves little to be desired.
@rotarius Perhaps...but the one big advantage of the AQ interconnects is the 72V DBS system. Once you fire up your system you are getting 100% performance. No cable run-in needed.
@hifiman5 The DBS system does sound interesting and I have not used it. Along with capacitance, I like to focus on the connector quality, materials & conductivity. That seems to make a big difference in SQ.
once you fire up your system you are getting 100% performance
while I love the DBS system and own a ton of AQ cable it has been my experience that a) it takes 48-72 hours for the DBS field to fully form if you ever unplug it, and b) like all cables the DBS equipped AQ will benefit from burn in, I just bought a set of WEL that had been sitting for six months disconnected and they needed 48 hours on my cable cooker to perform their best (despite the DBS boxes having been connected all along)
so do try AQ DBS cables but give them time to settle in
rotarius and folkfreak Agree with both of you! DBS keeps the dielectric in shape After you break in the cables originally. Connector, conductor quality and dielectric always make a difference in my cable experiences.
I have owned both the AQ Niagara 72V DBS ICs and the Synergistic Research Tesla (various models) & Element-series actively-shielded cables. Both apply DC power to the dielectric, albeit by different designs (battery vs "MPC" wall wart power supply). I found both to sound excellent and sold me on the notion of charging the dielectric for improved sound quality, most notably the improvement in reducing the noise floor.
The AQ method provides a much cleaner installation with the battery packs attached to the cable and no external wiring, but the SR active-shielding allows tuning of the power source (via cost-effective mods to the MPC by fellow-member Michael Spallone) and changing the Tuning Bullets (introduced with the Tesla SE and carried on to the Element series).
Michael’s mods were a step-function improvement in sound quality across the board and the SR tuning bullets provide audible changes in the upper-frequency character of my system. Very nice to have the ability to slightly alter/tune the highly-hearing-sensitive upper-frequency region where the enjoyment of cymbals and female vocals is especially sensitive (to me) to open-ness and also glare depending on the individual system’s proclivities in that region.
Both cables provide excellent sound quality in my experience, but I personally give the nod to the SR implementation for the reasons noted above.
cycles2 > Yes, over the years I always had a full loom of matching SR cables & typically purchased their most costly model starting years ago with the Tesla Apex series, then Element CTS and most recently the Atmosphere Level 4 line.
Blindjim > my first cable purchase was entry level spkr wires in active config. They arrived non active. Did not want to mess with sending them back and waiting what ever time, and just kept them with a rebate from the cost diffs. Still got them.
Since SR went to their Apex lines and beyond, I’ve lost interest in SR. Too expensive, and too complicated. Amd too many other ‘necessary’ add ons to make existing cabling better.
Would have been OK if all of the SR cabling had been improved upon, but it appeared to me, only the $1K and up stuff got better. Reportedly. Mostly, it merely got different.
Apex: It/they did not mate well with former SR ICs and why I sold my Resolution reference ICs which IMO, were the best pre to amp links I’ve had yet. Even had SR rewire them to SE from XLR when I made a system change. I liked ‘em that much.
Following the RR exodus, the best mix were Shunyata Altare $2K MSRP or so… and a pair of Nirvana SX Ltd… and the SA sig 10 active spkr wires. In that order.
I’ll look into HT Links first, probably. Maybe, they’ve gotten better at imaging and bass. The IIs ain’t bad, but I’ve heard better, for better money, of course.
Pops > pops > Trickle first, sell after, when possible. I am currently using a loom of Kubala-Sosna Fascination, IC’s, SC and PC’s. They are a very solid match to my system which includes Thiel speakers. I seem to remember you had MIT’s for a while. I have owned and tried a ton of those...
Blindjim > yep. Had MIT Magnum 3 as source cable to line stage pre. Always wanted the MIT Mag 1s. never did get ‘em. Adding more MITs was not the answer for me. It bleached out the sound too much.
When the SR Resolution Ref left, I added in Harmonic Tech’s Magic lnik II as power line IC.
Kubala always interested me. For about a minute. Seeing the preice tags blew me away immediately. Oil well.
Upper end audio equipment buying and or trying is like sleeping with a celebrity. Until you have done it, you only have the fantasy. Once done, it might just be the fantasy was better than the actual experience. Results vary greatly.
I’m seriously inclined to go with an ‘all one brand’ harness this tmie around. PCs, however, have proven vividly, mixing there can really get some interesting outcomes.
I've recently been smitten by Morrow cables as they seem to provide a neutral path for those pesky electrons, and have brought some sparkle to the gear heap. I ordered more of them recently, so I'll report back in a couple of months when they're properly settled in. I like to do the "break-in" myself so I can verify the changes…I remember a specific moment over a 7 minute period that I noticed a .0047% increase in soundstage width, but it was a metric increase and I barely had time get it translated to inches before I had to return to my nap.
cycles2 > SR will continually introduce new technologies & tell us why it's so much better than last year's model they raved about.
Blindjim > that seems a constant among all the makers of audio gear despite the fat their position on their latest SOTA gear is the best yet.
It’s the law. They have to.
Too bad some items in audioland are so ‘mercurial’. Especially cabling.
Pops > more or less, I’m fully on board with your idea. I am currently using a loom of Kubala-Sosna Fascination, IC’s, SC and PC’s. They are a very solid match to my system which includes Thiel speakers. I have had them about 3 years and have craved to upgrade to the Emotion level. And there I go again - trying to get into 4 figure cables again. Since I retired recently they are just a little pricey for me I seem to remember you had MIT’s for a while. I have owned and tried a ton of those... have you tried KS cables. Full bodied with nice tonal balance -
Blindjim > thanks all so far. I’ll try this again. As my last reply did not get posted.
RE MIT cables IMO work well here or there but not front to back. They ‘bleached’ the sound when too many were in the chain.
RE KS cables. Full bodied with nice tonal balance – They also demand fat wads of cash. Its highly doubtful I’ll land in KS world anytime soon.
There are only a few ultra high end wires which I believe I’ll try, once the spkrs and amp (s) land here. I’m also inclined to see what happens when one brand is inserted throughout, albeit, maybe not the exact same model, or maybe even then.
I simply despise the prospect of spending $10K or more and likely a bunch more, on freakin’ ICs and spkr wires!!
I do indeed get the notion cables matter. More than a little. But, If there is insanity in this hobby, it is spending multiple thousands on cables. Especially, if its just on one link in the chain!!!!! Wow.
That said, I still have enough PCs for example, which totaled well into the thousands in MSRPs and roughly half that in real costs. Yet, the outlay was/is substantial… and OMG, going forward it will be once again. .
My recommendation is to simply do your research and choose cables that are well-reviewed by reputable sources and fit within your budget. I own an A/V integration company in Atlanta, GA and typically use AudioQuest in most of our projects and have always had great results, and while there are certainly other options out there that are just as good, the balance of cost/performance has made that our go-to brand. PM me if you'd like specific recommendations within your target budget and I'll put together some options for you.
Some unsolicited hype: Received my latest Morrow cables taking advantage of a recent promotion where along with whatever discount was offered on the cables I ordered (a balanced MA "1.1" IC…using 4 runs of their teeny solid core silver coated copper wire), they tossed in a free MA1, which is the same "el cheapo" cable I recently bought to check out the stuff (I have several AQ solid core wires so I'm a solid core fan to the core). The quality of construction including the Neutrik plugs on the balanced cable is amazing, and that cable sounds great even before the 10,000 hour break-in process which might have something to do with it being a balanced line (heh)...for 2 cables the cost including shipping wound up at around 100 bucks. The MA1 basic RCA cable I first bought has broken in completely and is among the best sounding ICs I've heard…the only thing wrong with it is that it's too inexpensive for respect from some, and my answer to that is how my system responds to the cable…very, very well. Go Morrow!
I recently helped a friend with selection of his first hi-end system and he chose Morrow IC’s. As you say, well constructed and finished cables and they sounded very good to me.
He even uses the stock fuses - I know you would like him. ;)
Deep apologies to all. Been busy with Drs and life in general.
Blindjim > Toddverrone > thanks much. DIY is pretty much off my table. I’d have no one to yell at if I did not like ‘em.
4425 > AQ Niagara ICs
Blindjim > something massive must have happened in the past five years with AQ. Back then, their popularity was slim, and slimmer.
Milpai > You have so many cable on hand. Why not get the Clear Day cables and give them a shot? As of now have you shortlisted the final 3?
Blind… > perhaps I will. Short list: Morrow; Cardas: Nordost: Shunyata: HT; Crystal.
hifiman5 > clear day trial period.
Blind… > that’s helpful and actually a near ‘must’ with wires
Facten > Silnote Audio ICs, Clear Day Cable SCs, Audio Art Cable PCs
Blind… > I’m hoping there is significant disparity amonst those choices. I’ve got some AA ICs and must say they are a ‘value’ oriented cable. Not near middle or upper end performance. HT , or second system use IMO.
tom_hankins > Look no further than Signalcable.com or the musicdirect.com Audioquest Colorado or Columbia close out deals. All very good.
Blind… > AQ again. Its becoming
hifiman5 > If they still have them, go for the Colorado. Much better bass impact. I tried both!
Blind.. > its official now, AQ has to be on my list.
hifiman5 > My entire system is interconnected with Colorados. Nice.
Blind… > Cool.
Lostnamerica > I am going to side with nonoise referring to the Zu Audio cable. Best wishes
Blind… > thanks
Rotaries > when you need clarity without harshness - Mogami wire 2549, 2534, 2528, etc Wireworld ICs would be a couple of notches higher in SQ than a similarly priced Audioquest cable IMO. I also think Signal Cable is great value for money and leaves little to be desired.
Blind… > huge thanks. Very helpful.
Dlcockrum > active shielding….
Blind… > great post. With SR there is no doubt a better level of performance with active cabling. Unquestionably. FWIW, on the other side of the same coin, there are cables without active shielding that perform incredibly well too. Given the option I’d choose NOT to have more crap to plug into the wall.
wolf_garcia > morrow…
blind…. > excellent.
Savdllc > do your research. AQ is our default.
Blind… check!! Many thanks David. Really.
wolf_garcia > more on morrow
blindjim > lol. I saved your post.
Looks like I’m being forced to at least try the AQ offerings.
I’d like to know, what or which source to preamp ICs deliver the pin point imaging and honest revalation the MIT Magnum ICs provide, but without the bleaching of the tones?
I’ve heard in limited application, the Valhalla (not the v2)but I’m not sold on that level of investment to performance ratio at the moment. I also s thoughd ig that level PC, but again, the cost astounds me.
One specific cable I’m very curious about is the new to me, “Clear” from Cardas, and its iterations.
On the previous Cardas neutral Reference IC as main ICs, I loved the performance to cost relationship, though it did not do too well on the lower registers IMHO.
are the Cardas CLEAR line and the previous Cardas NEUTRAL REF at all similar?
One can’t help wondering if a company like Morrow controls the manufacturing process of their cables to the extent that the wire grain structure is correctly oriented in the finished product. Or do they say screw it.
Most of the cables recommended are probably good, but you will never know how they will match your system until you connect them with your system, even the most expensive cables has no guarantee to match your taste and your system...my friend told me to start on the cheaper, mid, to expensive prize so I can differentiate what they do on my system and taste.... he was right, I found out that time my system match the mid prize, the money I will spend on the expensive one is not worth it, the cheaper one is not even close on the mid prize cables, this are old Audioquest I tried...He also told me to be patience, and ask for longer audition, He also told me to wait for the cable to settle for 6 days...He told me to write what each cable do.Its time consuming , stressful at times, but I learned that's the way how to do it...If you will ask me what cable I will recommend ? Teo GC, CT cables, and Reveal high fidelity, this are amazing cables on my systems...
If you don't have cash just get the cheap stuff and pretend it sounds good.I like Purist and Furutech for built quality and sound in many cases you get what you pay for didn't promote bankruptcy for me.In a high resolution system you can clearly hear the difference between great cable and the cheap stuff.Good luck enjoy.
From the Morrow website: Tom Morrow uses the famous "Schmekerman 500" electron path determinizer at the exit point of the modified noodle extruder output nozzles to insure proper directionality. The silver coating has a "direction sniffing" chemical added in during the smelting process that allows it to follow the copper's lead and burns off when setting up, allowing for purity in both thought and action…a rare thing. Hense all Morrow cables are directional, and if used in the wrong direction can cause phase anomalies that will make the listener feel itchy.
for ICs - use balanced XLR cables on your balanced components; if you don't have such components buy them (and avoid components that are not properly engineered next time)
for Speaker cables - you will never be able to predict which ones will sound best, so use a cable rental/return place and keep trying ones with different inductances, etc.
Wolf New cables have built in gps for directionality, you will hear go back if you use the cable the wrong way, Solutions rub the Kimchi on the speaker post and it will redirect you again....the system will sound better if you eat Kimchi...they have the most 3D if you eat Durian fruit....
Geoffkait > Morrow controls the manufacturing process of their cables to the extent that the wire grain structure is correctly oriented
Blindjim > I am pretty sure they use a funnel.
Jayctoy > take notes…. recommend ? Teo GC, CT cables, and Reveal high fidelity,
Blindjim > been there done that. See my reviews on inter connects, power cords, etc. agreed. Start somewhere in the middle of whatever appeals to you, and or find someone who has similar system and tastes. Then start where they are but for sure its always gonna be a Missouriboat ride, “show me” thing.
Ebm > I like Purist and Furutech for built quality and sound…
Blindjim > Never got around to trying purist, or furitek. Did think about it a lot though. Just didn’t work out in time.
wolf_garcia > From the Morrow website: Tom Morrow uses the famous "Schmekerman 500" electron path determinizer at the exit point of the modified noodle extruder output nozzles to insure proper directionality. The silver coating has a "direction sniffing" chemical added in during the smelting process that allows it to follow the copper's lead and burns off when setting up, allowing for purity in both thought and action…a rare thing. Hense all Morrow cables are directional, and if used in the wrong direction can cause phase anomalies that will make the listener feel itchy.
Blindjim > Well, it could be a sock, but I was guessing it was a funnel. Maybe they use a colander first to get rid of the bigger meaner grains. But then a sock would work in a pinch.
randy-11 > for ICs - use balanced XLR cables on your balanced components; if you don't have such components buy them (and avoid components that are not properly engineered next time)
blindjim > Rut Ro. The only reason balanced cables exist is because their makers did not want to put in the best stuff so they had to put in twice as much decent stuff to compensate. lol
geoffkait > What makes it particularly funny, at least to me, is that electrons aren’t really involved. Not for the audio signal, anyway.
Blindjim > Electrons are Not involved? Call Bill Nye. If there were no electrons, your pants would not stay up… and ‘No’ electrons are not slang for ‘belt’. lol
Inna > Try Purist, Echole, Stage III and HB cable design cables. Least expensive current Purist to try is probably Poseidon.
Blindjim > thanks for the heads up. Much appreciated.
randy-11 > blindjim - you have a fundamental misunderstanding of electronics
blindjim > Correct! Its served me very well for many years. the only fundamental truth I seldom misunderstand is the one concerning the asking price and the price I have to pay. Neverhas the price I want to pay, the same as the price I'm told i must pay for them or it. it seems very complicated at first. after you buy the first piece, you're obliged to hide your shame and guilt, and keep buying tickets for the train ride.
the only real trick I've found is if you need more PRAT in your system, the speaker wires need to run downhill all the way to the spkr terminals. or at least put a chair in the way so the last part of the trip is all down hill. Trust me. its magical!!
Inna > the most popular current Purist cable is Neptune fluid. About $1300 for 1M RCAs pair. Poseidon fluid is about half the price.
Blindjim > thanks a lot. By the time I get around to trying them, they’ll double in price! Lol. For me, its how well they either compliment the array, or assist it, usually the latter. A fascinating thing I’ve noticed in audio gear is no matter what the the item. Wires, components, or even racks and isolation gizmos, every freakin’ maker of what ever places a price tag on it generally commensurate with the level of performance it brings to the system. Sometimes, it is far, far, too over valued. In other words, some makers are simply way to proud of their equipment.
The only way I can read the price list for Nordost odin cables is when I’m already at the Emergency Room or at least have an ambulance standing by in the driveway. OMG. $29k? UNREAL.
I think, Stealth has something like $70k cable.. There is the newest Purist power cord with built-in conditioner for $15k msrp, realistic price is significantly lower. Many who tried it swear that it is totally at a different level than any other Purist power cord. I don't want to audition it, what if they are right?
the only real trick I've found is if you need more PRAT in your system, the speaker wires need to run downhill all the way to the spkr terminals. or at least put a chair in the way so the last part of the trip is all down hill. Trust me. its magical!
Please help me. I am relatively new over here having recently given up on audioasylum (outdated web design, lack of activity, the place is a morgue). So my question Sir Blindjim, is; are you joking half the time, all of the time, or none of the time? You obviously know a ton about audio, you have likely "forgotten more than I ever knew", and yet you say some audacious things. And since you post one hell of a lot, I may need to reset my secret decoder ring or ask to be let in on running inside jokes.
I have upgraded to Cerious Technologies Graphene PC and IC's in my system and they are quite good. For my speakers, I found a significant improvement upgrading to the Supra Ply 3.4 tinned copper wire. For my bedroom system, vintage WE 16 ga. tinned copper wire with an oil-impregnated cloth shield has been outstanding, which is what the Supra wire mimics. Modestly priced Silnote and Shunyata PC's and IC's offered significant SQ improvements over Blue Jeans and Morrow cabling in my systems.
Jayctoy > I think synergistics and other cable company they have cables worth more than 45k ...
Blindjim > if they don’t yet, give ‘em another iteration or two. They will.
Inna > I think, Stealth has something like $70k cable.. There is the newest Purist power cord with built-in conditioner for $15k msrp, realistic price is significantly lower. Many who tried it swear that it is totally at a different level than any other Purist power cord. I don't want to audition it, what if they are right?
Blindjim > OMG. well… I stand corrected, and am currently without something to restart my heart with so I’ll just not look in those directions.
Fsonicsmith > Please help me. I am relatively new over here having recently given up on audioasylum
Blindjim > I doubt anyone here will hold that aginst you.
Fsonicsmith > are you joking half the time, all of the time, or none of the time?
Blindjim > Please… don’t confuse me with someone that actually matters. I’m nothing and nobody. I DO NOT wear a crash helmet or have my mane pinned to my shirt. Well, not anymore since the operation.
Neither am I an OCD poster. Actually, I’ve learned far more from people on this site and some local folks in my area which has brought me up to speed far more credibly than were I left o my own devices. So I reiterate and regurgitate those things, and my experiences and work history that might be meaningful for some one else. That is, IF I run across it. I don’t ever seek out opportunities to voice . my thoughts just to be adding on or bolstering my post counts. I don’t know it all and am glad of it. Less pressure that way.
Some like being a big fish in a little pond, or try to be a big fish in a really big pond so they might migrate from one related site to another now and then.
There are indeed really big fish in the ocean and some add their exp here occasionally. That part is great. Unquestionably. its an aide for everyone.
My legit stuff is legit, and the lampooning stuff is where one has the choice to laugh ignore it or be a jerk and post something derogatory about it.
I add in an instance for levity here and there to keep myself from sheer boredom like the ‘chair so electrons can run downhill’ noise. BTW, that was not originally mine. I stole it from another poster here who wrote it some years back. Gravity luckily has no untoward affectation on electrons. Capt. Kirk would have been very disappointed if it did.
Whitestix > Modestly priced Silnote and Shunyata PC's and IC's offered significant SQ improvements over Blue Jeans and Morrow cabling in my systems.
Blindjim > Hmmm. Thanks for the experiences with wires in your system. Esp the thoughts on BJ and Morrow.
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Honest Vintage Tube Repair - SoCal Equipment Grading Honesty Most Honest Audio Magazine? Be honest please 2017 Honest Cabling that doesn’t prom...
I think synergistics and other cable company they have cables worth more than 45k ...
Interestingly SR did have a $45K cable, the original Galileo system, but this was withdrawn and replaced by Galileo LE peaking at a mere $15K for speaker wire and this in turn by Galileo UEF at the same price
So I think you can argue that while SR could be accused of turning their lines pretty quickly they have not been continually pushing prices up, and in the market of uber high end wire they can even be termed "good value" 😉
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