2017 Honest Cabling that doesn’t promote bankruptcy

FWIW-
https://www.audiogon.com/listings/d-i-y-clear-day-cables-availability-2017-07-29-accessories

N

Best bang for buck is AudioArt and ZU .
ZU off E-bay is best deal on anything in all of Audio.

AudioArt is VERY good on harmonics ! 

@nutty,
That is correct. In anticipation of getting a new disc player in the next couple of months, I immediately ordered a set of XLR cables from Paul last week, as soon as I heard about his surgery. Got them today. Listening to my music with those new wires. His silver wires do not sound edgy at all. I also love those Puresonic connectors on them.

Just got Audio Art Classic RCAs for $100 pair. Burn-in time 170 hours, they got 5 hours so far. Pretty good already, a bit edgy and bass is not there yet. I will probably exchange it for SE with Xhadow plugs, they now also got standard size Xhadow plugs. I am a Purist Audio fan but can't afford another Neptune, so I thought why not try this, some members here had very good results with them. Rob is great to talk to, responded to email on Sunday. They also appear to work quite well in a chain with the Neptune, at least in my system. I'll see, 165 more hours. Oh, by the way, I burn in cables with analog source, no bloody digital anywhere to be found. Call me what you wish, I know it's better.

Blindjim- I think the choice of cable is system dependent. Ideally, the cables should be neutral, as should the components, but the reality, in my experience, is that different components sound different, and when combined with other components - the very nature of a system-- the results may vary. I don't think this is a very scientific approach, but having first started experimenting with different speaker cables back in the late '80s, I heard differences (over a pair of old Quad ESLs driven by a modest sized ARC tube amp).
Fast forward> when I switched to horns in 2006, I had to hand some Van De Hul cable. It sounded fine. The amps were at first Audiopax 88's, which were a curious design, and I got Cardas cable to match them. Sounded better, if I recall. I eventually replaced the amps with Lamm SETs and replaced everything with Kubala Sosna (mostly Emotion, but one stretch of Elation at the front end). I really haven't felt the need to upgrade, though I imagine if I tried other cable, I would get different results.
Now, for something completely different, I got those old Quad ESLs restored, along with the matching amps, and decided to be "anti-audiophile" about the cable. I had a big roll of 12 gauge copper stranded cable. It sounds fine. (I'm using inexpensive Wireworld interconnect, which I'm sure could be bettered, but it is pretty well made and cheap by audiophile standards). Since I couldn't leave well enough alone, I decided to explore some other speaker cable. I have some Canare 4S11 en route--a pretty inexpensive DIY alternative. I may also try the faux WE stuff at some point. My goal on this vintage system isn't just to keep costs down (though cost is certainly a factor), but to keep within the spirit of this older equipment. Back when I first started using the Quad, in 1973, it was pretty much zip cord and there was no high grade interconnect being marketed- I suppose DIY at that time exceeded what was generally available commercially. 
I don't have any holistic view on this- the main system is pretty settled, and my continuing experiments on the vintage system cable are probably only going to yield conclusions applicable to that system. 

If you are still up in the air about what amp and speaker choices you are making, I'd wait until you sort that out first. I don't think these assessments can be done in isolation (or, as another poster above said, there is no one "best" cable for all systems). 
Have fun with this. Take advantage of The Cable Company loaner program (which I've never done) to the extent you can. 

milpai,
I've spoken to Paul several time since reading his updated site. I believe his products are well made and priced right. I ordered an additional pair of Double Shotguns to run a true Biwire setup from my Levinson. He knows his products and their limitations. Paul is one of the good guys in the industry. I wish him well. 

N



 

Whart > Ideally, the cables should be neutral, as should the components, but the reality, in my experience, is that different components sound different, and when combined with other components - the very nature of a system-- the results may vary.

Blindjim > its not that they ‘may’ vary, it is that results ‘will’ vary. Unquestionably.

Leaning heavily on ‘synergy’ helps. Infusing cabling however into the mix is the greatest aggravation in this past time IMO.


Whart > In 1973, it was pretty much zip cord and there was no high grade interconnect being marketed

Blindjim > in the ‘70s and into the ‘80s I was an electronics communication technician. or commercial electrician. Stereo’s then used $2 RCA connections…. And lamp wires for speaker cables. Only a knife and screw driver was needed to get a stereo hooked to a pair of speakers.

They had the all in one inspiration everywhere. Phono, tape, tuner, an the obligatory AUX input for a reel to reel deck.

Power cords were migratory only if the dog chewed off the one already attached.

It always amazed me how a dog could do that and survive.


Whart > If you are still up in the air about what amp and speaker choices you are making.. wait on wires.

Blindjim > check. So the Cable Co. is still alive and well? Cool.
Only decision made thus far is to go more mainstream instead of low power and High Eff spkrs for the main rig. Lower tube power and High Eff spkrs is the aim for a secondary office deal. Likely, Push Pull, EL 34 based. < 100wpc. Stand mount spkrs.

And the main room spkrs will have to be more low power friendly than those I’ve been admiring which mostly fall into the 4 ohm 90db or so realm.
Short list wires are AQ, Nordost, Shunyata, Wireworld, Cardas, HT, and Crystal. Maybe Morrow or Audience.

I would still love to know what happened to the Sunyata Taipan helix alpha pc. Which one is it now? Which one is the Python equivalent? Any input on their new lines would be appreciated.

The best wire I have heard, and I have owned many, is the Duelund bulk stranded copper in oil impregnated cotton. Wonderful sounding with many of us Aphiles selling off cables costing up to $2500 for this stuff. Jeff Day and Jim Smith both love and use it talking about it on the their sites/blogs.

Offered in 16,12, and 20 gauge. Price is $9-$16 meter. Do not terminate as speaker wire as it sounds best stripped and hooked directly. All terminations degrade sound.

I have owned Clear Day, MG, several Cardas, TRL, Amadi, Tara Labs Air, and others and the Duelund wire is very special.

It is tinned so no need to worry about oxidation etc....The 16 gauge is the choice for many for both speaker wire and ICs. With Switchcraft rca’s you can make a 1 meter set of ICs for just $65. The 12ga is a tad more full bodied than the 16ga when used as speaker cable. The 16ga is a tad more lively.

Dont let the price fool you, You could spend thousands on this wire and still smile when you hear it.

Grannyring > best wire I have heard, is the Duelund bulk stranded copper in oil impregnated cotton.

Blindjim > OK.
A few Q’s….
What covers the oil impregnated cotton to make it safe to use as a conductor?

Can these things be considered ‘shielded?

Essentially, are they both as revelatory neutral and transparent to the signal apart from one with more weightiness and one more active??

Have you ever ran double runs of this wire as spkr wire in any AWG size?

Exactly where do we buy these wires?

Thanks, Jim

Cotton is the only outer covering and all that is needed. It is sturdy, thick, and safe. No worries. You can purchase this wire from Parts Connextion. They sell the 16ga and 12 ga.

I like the Duelund and love the Western Electric NOS wire which the Duelund wire was fashioned after. 10 gauge and can be purchased below. Please note it is sold as a twisted set! Great value. Don’t terminate .... use the bare wire. Same with the Duelund wire. I started off with the Duelund 16ga and finally ended up on the Western Electric 10ga. Personal preference only and system synergy.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/per-foot-Western-Electric-AIW-10ga-STRANDED-cloth-covered-gray-PAIR-/2316636...

It is warmer sounding and more full bodied while the Duelund wire is lively and a tad more open. Two great options.

Both these options  are not shielded as you say. This is one reason for their openness. What these cables have in spades is uncanny realism. Less electronic or reproduced sounding and more live. Your music sounds real. It sort of transcends talking about this or that audiophile adjective.

What covers the oil impregnated cotton to make it safe to use as a conductor?

Jim, I would not use the Duelund wire to make power cords but the cotton covering should be fine when using the wire as ICs or SCs.

The Western Electric wire was designed as a speaker wire but has been used by several cable manufacturers to make power cords. From the WE website;

KS-13385 is our premium Hi-Fi audio wire. It features a soft drawn copper with a tinned coating and a cotton braided jacket. 

KS-13385 Wire features a laquered cotton brain jacket with PVC insulation. Sizes range from 24 AWG to 2AWG.

The construction of the wire and cable is in accordance with Underwriters' Laboratories Appliance Wiring Material (AWM) Style 1491.

KS-13385 WIRE

This hookup wire is designed for use at operating voltages of 600 volts rms or less and temperatures not exceeding 185F.

Conductors

Stranded or solid, tin-coated copper conforming to ASTM B-33 and B-174 or B-173.

Conductors

85°C rated Polyvinyl Chloride (PVC) conforming to Underwriters' Laboratories AWM Style 1491 and CSA C22.2 No.210.2 requirements.

Optional Cabling/Shielding

2, 3 or 4 conductors may be twisted together when requested. A braided shield may be applied over 1, 2, 3 or 4 conductors with an overall lacquered cotton braid.

Covering

On all sizes, a lacquered cotton braid conforming to UL requirements is applied over the insulation. The colors shall be specified on order.

Type

UL Listed AWM Style 1491 90°C, 600 Volts VW-1, CSA listed AWM 1 A/B 90°C, 300 Volts FT-1. RoHS Compliant and Lead-Free.

Good point on the Duelund wire. I assumed the question was for speaker and IC cable only. Yes I used the WE10 to make many nice sounding power cords over the past two years.

Grannyring > I like the Duelund and love the Western Electric NOS wire which the Duelund wire was fashioned after.

Blindjim > very cool. THX. Given the costs, It’s a no brainer to at least try this stuff.

mitch2 > Jim, I would not use the Duelund wire to make power cords but the cotton covering should be fine when using the wire as ICs or SCs.

Blindjim > huge THX!
yeah. I was a bit confused on that ‘in oil’ part. Both sides of my brain were about to walk off ten paces at dawn and …. Then I suddenly remembered I’ve gotta buy the ‘spensive power cords.
I’m pretty sure it’s the law.

I think I’ve seen these same wires in some military tube based PA systems and later on in the commercial electrical field within older house wirings.

It would be cool too to have spkr wires in my fav color.

I wonder if they would do some in paisley?

I’ve archived these last few notes so maybe I’ll make some progress. At least obtain a base line for further comparisons.

I will indeed flip out if these things out run my Synergistic active spkr bi wires.

Audio Sensibility makes excellent cables at an affordable price. If you read their history they are one of the few companies that can source high end OCC copper/silver.  I added a tonearm cable last year and a few cables recently and all are high quality making an improvement.  I recently bought their USB cable that uses 100% OCC silver conductors for half price as the AQ coffee cable it replaces and the sound is much better.  

The audio sensibility speaker cables have to be pretty good.  The cable dielectric, geometry and gauge are the same as canare 4s11.

Not sure if canare uses PCOCC cooper but I do feel that PCOCC cooper makes a significant difference compared to regular OFC cooper.  I recommend trying one of their cables before you pay the big bucks for a more expensive cable. 

It's good to hear acknowledgement of conductor quality's contribution to superior signal transference and hence to the sound quality of an audio system.  The other two big factors would be dielectric quality and implementation along with connector quality.  If the cable is manufactured well you should be good to go.

The "X" factor in all of this is knowing your system and what to you is great sound along with the ability to select quality cables with all of the above factors in evidence that will sing in your system.  

That, for me, is the most satisfying part of the audiophile thing...knowing how to tweak the sound of your system to get what to you allows well recorded music to sound the most like the real thing.  Once there?  Focus on and enjoy the music!

PS  I am listening to "The Magnificent Steinway" by Hyperion Knight on an FIM CD.  I've never heard a piano sound more like the real thing and that is saying something as I have great vinyl of Nojima's recordings with Reference Recordings and Wilson Audio piano LPs.

I agree one should or must know their system well and know what they are trying to improve upon, or simply alter.


I followed some advice here long ago and began with Power cords. Sure, I bought some quite popular ICs and spkr wires too, but sure as heck did not want to.


With only basic mostly entry level cables, stock power cords, etc., I began to notice things were changing as each PC replaced the OEm PCs. Sometimes for the better, sometimes not. I filtered thru a lot of them! The Cable Co or back then called “Fat Wire” and I were in contact almost weekly. (see archived reviews of cables I’ve posted here)


With connecting cables things were slightly different. They all matter so which way you approach them is neither good or bad. Spkr wires first? OK… go there. I did. Again, with tons of input. I found a set priced right for me and bought them. Priced right for me means what I can’t afford, and then add 25% or more. Often, more. Neutrality in spkr wires was the theme and they remained even though all else were exchanged, replaced bought again, exchanged, and replaced again!


Probably one item aided me immensely in chosing ICs. Power line conditioning. I prefer passive, not active. Adding one, then a different kind, and then another and finally a step up in performance and price unit, all helped a lot. Albeit, the Running Springs haley was the last one added and that was well after all of the wire selections were made. Almost.


It is easier to pick and chose wires when the grundge is being swept off the power line and making it easier to hear the devices. A good argument for begining with PLCs could well be made.


Wires too are device dependant. Unless…. One wants to go “same + same” front to back, though I would say my EXP indicates get into the middle of a line or higher to start adding in the same cabling every where.


I found great results with mixing various brands and models in the past. Almost none of those are now current cables… so I’m starting over from scratch, almost.


A funny thing happens with cables, and components. Once I’ve found a particular sound I enjoy. A particular level of resolution and detail. Sufficient transparency. I will thereafter attempt to regather what ever devices or system to that same level of sonic purity again and again. I find this exceptionally humorus. It is nigh on to impossible, but we must all have some readily identifiable trait of mild insanity or they throw us out of the club. And yes… it’s the law.


All of this would be so simple if preamps came with tone controls… yes. That is audionervosa heresy. Super. Burn me at the stake. I’ll bring the lighter fluid.


I’m all in on the ‘no tone’ controls epidemic. Finally. …and no, I don’t use wires to adjust the tone. That’s what tubes are for!! OK.. OK… I’ll bring the matches too.


I know me and achieving the inth degree of transparency, detail, and so forth is not my usual tact. I could care less to know what color socks a musician or singer is wearing. Or if they have on underwear. Besides, we all know musicians and singers go ‘commando’ most of the time anyhow.


I settle for or stop at about the same spot I do with gear. Right at or just into, the point where any further into the rabbit hole begins to shed the involvement and fun from the session. When stuff begins to get bleached out. Its all leading edges and dynamics, we have sadly, departed from reality.


Music for me does have color. Timber and tone some would say. But it comes off as color when you must describe it.


I want the music system I possess to provide enough truth when its playing that it makes me want to yank out my virtual audtograph pad and ask for a virtual autograph from one of the performers. . which one? Well the prettiest one of course. Or possibly the one I feel I might get luckiest with after they’ve had a bottle of Beam’s choice or mescal. Nope. I ain’t buying it, but I will pour it for her. When she no longer can of course. After all, I’m no heathen.


I’ve drank with performers before. Most of the time I’d as soon not. Getting to know one better, might destroy one’s image of them.


The feed back here is outstanding and opens many doors I’d never have thought of alone.

Neotech Cables both Interconnects and Power is highly recommended.


Neotech XLR MK1 seems a lot more easier to listen too than MK2 both are priced well but i prefer the MK1 Series it just feels right.

blindjim .. see my thread on Shunyata. Was researching upgrade path and Richard gave me a quick historical/chronological look at their line.
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/deciphering-shunyata-chronological-history-for-upgrade-paths

dragon_vibe > Neotech Cables both Interconnects and Power is highly recommended.

Blindjim > thank you. would you mind adding more clarity as to the sonics they affect and or how they present the audio?


Trombonist > Richard gave me a quick historical/chronological look at their line

Blindjim > yes. I saw that thread and posted to it myself.

I called Shunyata too. Knowing the heritage is one thing, knowing which version does what to the sound is another.

I’m still in the dark as to the affects of each model and how the DX iterations quiet the power line. I was told the action takes place now in the IEC termination itself… or so I believe. It was pointed out too the DX or ‘quieter’ PCs do not have a specific purpose and can be used with any device without concern for any current limiting attributes.

The ‘Sigma’ however has a feature set none of the lower entrants possess.
I also got the impression the Taippan helix alpha sits nearest to the new Delta and perhaps between it and the next level up, the ’Alpha’.

Again it seems The Cable Co. must be used to know what’s up, almost for sure.

Hmmm, how about biwiring with Duelund 16 and 12 gauge to each speaker terminal 

Knownothing, I suspect the two Duelund runs would sound just fine.  I bi-wire with two runs of WE10ga wire and it sounds great to me.

DNM - absolutely superb cables

Wywires cables - their Platinum series is the best bang for the buck in their line.  Find some used cables which can often be had for about 50% off retail and performance vs. value will go a lot further. 

I'd go for the Cerious Technology Graphene Extreme SCs, Teo GC ICs on both the CD and Phono, and JW Reference ICs on the preamp to amp.  The JW's give the initial impact with no harshness.  Using 2 sets of Teo's in line on the CD or Phono was too smooth.  The CTGE give bass grunt, dynamics, and very good clarity on all sounds.  The result is very real sounding.

I have VMPS RM40 BCSE ribbon speakers that are very revealing and dynamic.  This combination of wires replaced my previous ones of Darwin and Amadi silver wires.  Those were both very detailed and transparent, but I finally figured out that my system needed a more organic sound with fuller bass.

I'm now officially off the hunt for better wires and more synergy in my system.

I've gotta agree with the Wolf's suggestion on Morrow.  They preserve the music without the glare and sometimes harshness of stranded wire.  I'm currently waiting on a couple more pairs I've ordered.  

New kid on the block - Tchernov cables from Russia. They sell in Europe but might ship to the US too, I don't know. I am not going to try them now because somehow I don't think they will beat my Purist set. But I might try them later when there is more funds available.

Blue Jeans cable. Entire loom for very reasonable outlay. Good quality and musicality.