You've tried other amps and ended with Pass, please discuss

unsound ^i believe Nelson Pass did make a Class D amp; I also seem to remember he wasn’t encouraged to do it again.

 Judging by this, I think your right, from God himself. 

Nelson Pass Passlabs
"Does a $10 bottle of wine compete with a $100 bottle? Of course it does, and it often wins based on price. Right at the moment Class D designers seem to be still focusing on the objectively measured performance of their amplifiers. I expect that at some point the economics of the marketplace will encourage them to pay more attention to the subjective qualities, and then they will probably play a greater role in the high end."

Cheers George

Nelson's specific recipe has led to many successes that have been proven over and over.

Absolutely true, you can't argue with financial success in a heavily competitive market, plus I hear he's a great guy. I don't claim to understand everything he's doing, but it is a specific type of recipe and clientele he's after.  I also think based on his writing and observations, he's also got a type of speaker in mind when he designs.  That may have much to do with his intention.

@erik_squires 

It is not simply pick a gain stage, follow that up with suitable output drivers, toss in some distortion mechanism, and poof you have a Pass amp.

It's my basic understanding that Nelson Pass designs his amplifiers not specifically to add distortion, per se, but rather to manage the inherent distortion characteristics from his specific design approach- simple topology, low global feedback, low output impedance, excellent slew rate, superb thermal stability, wide bandwidth, stability into all loads, high reliability, very high subjective performance, solid bench measurements, etc...it's all these trade offs, and more, that must be managed.

Nelson's specific recipe has led to many successes that have been proven over and over. 

^i believe Nelson Pass did make a Class D amp; I also seem to remember he wasn’t encouraged to do it again.

I’d like to see Pass do a Class D amp.

That would be interesting.  Pass adds a distortion signature to his amps. I wonder if he would create a new Class D architecture which has this, or add a front end to a conventional Class D design.

I’d like to see Pass do a Class D amp.  I need lots of drive and I like smaller easier to manage packages.  Of course lower cost is better than higher for me like most as well. 😉

Hi @english210
Noble quest--complete sound, that is. I applaud you. I can only speak to my experiences with Pass equipment. I have had many of the AB "X" series amps with, mostly, Dynaudio speakers. The Dyns have the hallmark of smooth and natural with awesome imaging potential, but not the worlds most "punch you in the head" kind of dynamics other high end speakers might offer. Long term listening pleasure is what I admire.
Pass Labs have been wonderful on the various Dyn models i’ve owned over the years. The only XA amp I owned, was the XA30.5--I loved every second of music sessions with that. Never played a sour note. Just incredible.

The answer is system dependent; currently I am using Luxman amplification (pre and power) and i’ve been tuning the system to optimize this gear. EVERYTHING matters, and it’s not simple enough to just swap amps and hope for the best. Sure you can do that but to really find the potential it takes patience with trial and error of other supporting pieces. I am still learning this lesson today. Power cables on the amp alone can totally make or break the entire result. I am a trained EE and active in electronic design. I gave up trying to figure out how/why PCs make the kind of difference they do. I use my ears to measure and the differences can be startling.

A few fellow goner’s recommended Triode Wire Labs, for instance, and I am currently evaluating the Obsession PC. It has transformed the amp in ways I never thought possible.

Balance
If your speakers have metal dome tweeters and are super revealing, (and maybe like 88-90 dB sensitive ) and your room is about 12x20x8, and you don’t listen at ear splitting levels all the time, I think a Pass XA30.8 would work wonders.

If your speakers are soft dome, lower in efficiency, you might consider an X150.8/250.8...
If you have some form of high frequency tinnitus or irritation to harsh sounds you can’t go wrong with Pass (and Luxman, TBH, both are awesome in their unique strengths);

Your source cabling and component set matter greatly in this too...
You can have too much of a good thing-- tubey preamp, XA "type" power amp, warmish cables, warmish front end, smooth speakers (Harbeth/Spendor/Dynaudio) and find yourself swimming in a sea of pleasant mush...will not offend your ears in ANY way but quite boorish perhaps with a homogenized sound.

Again, good luck on your quest!!
-Dave

I have owned a few Pass components and my reasons are the following:
- Great amercian company 
- Great customer service 
- Love the looks & physical qualities
- Owning something that Nelson Pass creatived. He's a cool guy and my age. He's like a mad scientist!
- I love the sound of Pass Labs equipment. Obviously if I didn't like their sound all of the above wouldn't matter.

like dpac996 above, I’m reading with amusement the answers to the questions along with the ax-grinding posts referring to who-knows-what drama from other threads. I’m interested in the answers to the questions as someone who is a potential future Pass owner, regardless of what labels someone may attach to me as a result. I’m relatively new to the pursuit of what I would term ‘complete’ sound out of my system, so I’m very interested in others’ journeys, and their hits and misses along the way. My current area of interest is primarily pre amps, and I’m likely to add a tube pre to my otherwise SS setup, since I’ve read so much about the success others have had with that. I read here with great interest about a ‘theme’ I’ve heard with the XA amps bringing ‘tube-like’ sound to SS components. Ignore the stupidity, and please keep posting answers to the original question, those who can.
thanks

It was quite arbitrary, so what?

In particular it was because I hear a lot of Pass fans who talk about it as a closed ecosystem as if no other amp exists and I was very curious to learn about how they got there or left.

That's the privilege of the poster. :)



Best,

E

and here's the funny thing...I have an XA30.8 that I really enjoy in the way it fits in my system.  I really don't care much for any Pass amps outside the XA series and I definitely don't like the Pass pre's as I feel they are a bit too hifi-ish for my listening priorities.  I wouldn't like my XA30.8 if I weren't pairing it with a tube linestage and tube phono stage.  The XA30.8 gives my system better bottom grip when needed compared to a tube amp but still gives me a tube-like Class A sound I like.

In a 2nd system I have a Cary SLI-80HS.  The SLI-80 is the only piece of gear that I think Cary ever got truly right in its history.  I'm not married to the house sound of any manufacturer and am very deliberate and discriminating about which components find their way into my system.  To cast a net over Pass (or any other brand for that matter) and ask people to reflect on why they ended on that brand isn't really asking the right question if what you really want to know is how certain components incrementally provided the full sonic experience we were seeking or are on the path to achieving.  

but @erik_squires if that were true, that this was all about broadly uncovering the journey we all take in discovering what we like and how we arrived where we did etc... wasn’t it quite arbitrary to select Pass as the gear to specifically reflect on? If you had posted the above framework in your original post, without "arbitrarily" selecting one brand this whole conversation wouldn’t be so off-putting to every Pass owner.

The premise of it all is very funny...."So why on earth are you enjoying your Pass amp so much?" As Greta Thunberg once said - "How dare you!"

If that is your interpretation of my original posting three_easy_payments I have to say you are reading things in here I never meant to put in.

The point of this thread was to understand the journey audiophiles take, and to understand audiophiles in terms of how we learn adapt and change. Why some like a type of sound and why others don't.  Just like music, there's no real wrong answer, but why person A becomes fascinated by an artist and others do not is a worthwhile discussion to me.

Some people see painting as 2 dimensional, you like it or you do not. I see art as occurring in a historical context in which even if I don't like it, appreciating the message and influence is culture.

Best,

E

The premise of it all is very funny...."So why on earth are you enjoying your Pass amp so much?" As Greta Thunberg once said - "How dare you!"

Thank you again to everyone who participated in this thread. As I’ve said before, I am particularly grateful for those who can share specific experience as to what they’ve tried, and what worked and did not work for them. Those types of insights, whether they end up with Pass or not, are incredibly useful to everyone who is looking to settle down with a final amplifier.

It gives me great joy to see another audiophile reach their happy place, wherever that may be.

Best,

E

As I’m sitting here enjoying a nice cold beer and listening to music, I read this entire thread*. It was like a tv sitcom. I actually lol a few times. I love this loonie bin and everyone in it. Cheers inmates. 
*Day 38 in our house on lockdown, so that might have something to do with it. 

Hello there. I am in my mid sixties and so I can't hear what I did in my twenties but...Brightest kills enjoying Hi-fi for me. I've had many Amplifiers over the years a Nice Krell 600c with a VTL 5.5 Ver.1 with B&W N Speakers, then moved to  fourteen year run with McIntosh MC 501mono blocks audio Research Reference 3 preamp and Tyler Acoustics Speakers both great systems with various front ends. My current system Pass Labs XA100.5 mono blocks, Sonus Faber Amati Homage Speakers with a Modwright LS 36.5DM full Tube preamp by far the best sounding system I've owned, it's true IMO that a little bit of colored sound is pleasing to my ears although I must say I could have lived and enjoyed any of the systems I've owned simply 
Pass Labs Class A Amplifiers are Amazing sounding and well made, please try to enjoy the music!

You are in every thread about people enjoying Class D

Yes, I do post a lot in others threads on the behavior of Class-D, especially into low impedance loads when I can see they aren't suited to get the best from the speakers..

But unlike you, they are not my threads Eric.

YOU ARE THE OP THAR STARTS THEM UP, and then go out of your way almost begging for others to feed your anxiety problems with Nelson Pass amps with negative reports posts (pills).

Hey @georgehifi

So lets talk about integrity. Meaning, you have standards you hold others accountable to the same degree you hold yourself to.

You are in every thread about people enjoying Class D and tell them that they can’t be enjoying class D.

OK, cool. So here I am talking Pass and you are upset ... at what exactly? "fishing for dirt?" What does that even mean in audio context? That Pass didn’t pay his taxes?

With the encyclopedia you’ve posted on why no one should claim to enjoy class D, what ethical or moral standard do you think you have to come in here and post about me asking open ended questions?

Lets say you were right, and the point of this thread was to bash Pass. It is not, but even if I was, aren’t you the kettle calling me very very black?

By what right do you have to run around here making people afraid of stating they like a particular thing and also attempting to chastise me for this thread?

Please explain how you square this up, because to me being a person of integrity means having some ability to observe your behavior and holding yourself up to the standards you are claiming for others.

There's no one more transparently biased than you, @Georgehifi
While I ask questions and respect people's experience, you absolutely can't stand that people are happy with amps you don't like.

Isn't there a happy Class D thread somewhere you need to go get kicked out of again? 

Fishing for dirt again Eric, sooooooooo predicable.

Why do you have it in for Nelson Pass’s amps so much, did one do damage to you financially or in return service work, or do you blame them for the bad sound you may have had at the time.

They are the best sounding amps I ever owned.

Hey @ron1264
I don't doubt you, but can you be specific as to the speakers you have used, and what in your mind makes the Pass XA30.8 better than all the other models?


What is it you gained or lost going from other models, and were there any speakers you think others did as well or better with?

@erik_squires I had a Pass XA30.8 and it sounded better then every amp I have own including Halo JC1’s, Mola kalugas, Coda no.8, Anthem STR, lyngdorf 3400 to name a few, except for my current amps, the Theta Citadel 1.5’s. They are the best sounding amps I ever owned.

@richdirector, ill be powering my new Ardens with the Pass xa30.5 and will let you know how it goes once they're broken in.
Eric, The 30.5 got me off the amp merry go round. How it pairs with the Tannoy Arden remains to be seen. I lean towards efficient speakers (Spatial Audio M3, Gemme Tanto 2, KEF 107) and prefer higher quality watts over quantity.
 Amps I've owned that I could have lived with forever include the McCormmick DNA 0.5, and Jeff Rowland Model 2. All three of these amps brought excellent synergy and sonic joy in my system at different points in my journey. If im playing this game right, that should be the only thing that matters.
Demo if you can. You'll find synergy eventually.

Don't know about the other models in their line up but I've auditioned a Pass int 60 and I thought it was superb in every aspect. Then we hooked an MSB ADC V DAC to it. Purt neer had an organism.

I've also listened to the Pass integrated 60. I too was taken back at how wonderful it sounded. Such an underrated amplifier and one of the best integrated amplifiers I have ever heard. 

@audiofound


Can you compare it to other amps you heard at the same visit??

I just returned from a trip to Suncoast Audio and I got to audition several high end amps. One of them was a Pass int 60. I wasn’t planning on auditioning the int 60 but I’m really glad I did. I (my ears) thought it was a superb sounding amp. I was very surprised at how good it sounded. It just wasn’t an amp that was ever on my radar. And I think that’s why it impressed me so much. After listening to just the amp itself we tried it with the MSB ADC 5 DAC/streamer. My, my, my! It sounded sublime. So sweet and smooth. Needless to say I was very taken by the int 60. An underrated amp to say the least, IMHO..

georgehifi5,887 posts10-08-2019 2:40am

dutchydog
What is it with you and Pass? I think you must work for pass labs competition.

+1 it's getting kinda scary.

Buying audio gear is starting to sound like people who buy certain cars. Ferrari vs Lamborghini, BMW vs Mercedes, Ford vs Chevy, etc. Thank god everyone has their own taste of what they like or dislike because if they didn't, the world would be boring, haha!! I remember when this forum started, it was to educate folks on Hi End audio gear. Now it seems like egos are getting in the way of being a sponge (educating one self or others). Never hate on what others buy or enjoy. Instead embrace and enjoy that others are showing interest in high end audio (A slowly dying bread with this latest generation not showing much interest in high end audio at all). In another words, encourage and don't discourage especially the younger crowd! If you don't think this is so, (fun fact check) tell me how many stores use to be in your surrounding area 10-15 years ago and how many are currently in your area to-date. It should be an eye opener. 

Happy Listening and less debating :-)

dutchydog
What is it with you and Pass? I think you must work for pass labs competition.

+1 it's getting kinda scary.

What is it with you and Pass? I think you must work for pass labs competition. 

tleddy6 posts10-04-2019 2:57pmI am using Pass Aleph III’s on stacked Quad 57’s

The only amps I liked as well were the Cary 805’s

I second the response from tleddy6 about the Cary Audio CAD 805's. I will go a bit further and say the Cary Audio 805AE. Dennis builds one of the best amplifiers on the market IMO. My other favorite which I'm supprise no one mentioned was Jeff Rowland, Ayre, & Boulder. I personally love the Jeff Rowland Model 12's monoblock (4 chassis design) They drive my Magnepan .7 speakers like i have never heard them before. I use to have the Pass Labs Xa30.5 which sounded really good but I preferred the Cary 805AE monoblock and the Jeff Rowland Model 12 monoblock for their warmth, imaging and unbelievable sound stage.

Happy Listening and less debating :-)

  One thing you must do though is give the amp at least 5 full-days of turn-on time (nothing needs to be playing) before the amp sounds terrific.

Well, that's interesting for two reasons:

1 - Some Class Ds do exactly this, wonder what the commonality is?

2 - I wonder how many Pass amps I heard in San Francisco had never been able to warm up fully?

Best,
E

Hi Eric,  I've owned a number of higher-end pieces of equipment from various Mfg.'s over the years (decades), all with their specific sonic signature.  As my listening and music tastes evolved, I found myself with fairly efficient (93-db 6-ohm nominal) speakers and have delighted in the micro and macro detail using a very dynamic SET 300-B amp and more recently a SIT-2 First-Watt amp.  Both the SET amp and SIT-2 give me great detail from bass to treble and a wide and deep believable sound-stage.  My listening is mostly to small well-recorded ensembles, male and especially female vocalists with a few instrument backup and jazz.  I have not had any other amps that I've experienced give me the "you're there" feeling and realism than the SET and SIT-2 amps have done.  The SET is slightly smoother than the SIT-2 however both in my opinion are equally-accurate.  While for most of my listening, both of these amps are great, there are times that I do want a little more headroom for my louder listening (rock and some jazz).  I love the SIT-2 Nelson Pass design so much that I wanted to try the XA30.8 stereo Pass-Labs amp...  Since Reno Hi-Fi has such a great return policy, I felt that this would be a good opportunity to try one of his amps with more guts.  I was not disappointed !  While the 30.8 is not quite as micro-detailed as the SET or SIT-2 amps (I'm splitting hairs now) I am thoroughly impressed with this amp from every aspect especially macro-dynamics.  With my 93-db 6-ohm speakers, they never seem to run out of "gas" or even strain with loudly-played music.  If I can say anything about it, it's greatly under-rated, power-wise !  One thing you must do though is give the amp at least 5 full-days of turn-on time (nothing needs to be playing) before the amp sounds terrific.  It needs that break-in time.  This amp tends to have a smooth, slightly warm sound that would give you a sonic impression similar to that of an accurate tube-amp.  It's an amp that I could certainly live with if I didn't have the SET or SIT-02, however I'm glad that I have all three !  Nelson Pass has done a great job of designing this amp and I'd venture to say that the rest of that XA line would be terrific, should you need more power than 30 Class-A WPC.  If you decide to buy Pass-Labs or First-Watt, give Mark @ Reno Hi-Fi a call.  Terrific information, customer service and prices !  

Respectfully, 
John

To be clear: What I want to encourage are discussions about your happy Pass model vs. non Pass amps.

If you listened to several OTHER brands and went to Pass, I would love to know what you had, why Pass was better for you, and what speakers you have.

 There is no possible wrong answers here. You like what you like.

Thank you to everyone taking the time to include this much detail.

Erik

I am being completely consistent.

Eric is asking someone, why they do not like the sound of Pass amps, but, refuses to answer my same question to him, as I was the 1st poster to his thread. George, I am with you

I have said in this thread I wanted to listen. A poster made some wildly generic, negative statements, so I asked him to avoid, and if he could not avoid, to at least be specific.

I am very grateful to all the pro Pass posts here which get specific to model of amp and speaker and discuss relative merits.

I am more grateful and lucky when the poster mentions brands  of amps I have heard and the relative differences.

Very happy to read of people enjoying Pass when they give me a reference point.


Best,

Erik

@richdirector Nelson pass uses tannoys. You'll find various discussions of them if you search...

And you can probably get some good discussion of pass amp recommendations by posting over at the pass labs forum on diyaudio and asking what might be the best fit for your speakers... https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/pass-labs/

I’ve only owned three different sets of amps: McIntosh MC452, PS Audio BHK300 mono’s and a set of PL 60.5’s.  I’ve ran a McIntosh C2500, C50, PS Audio BHK Pre and a PL XP-22.  Every time I swapped something out, it was in the pursuit of something “more.”  The MC452, I sold because though it sounded fine at moderate volumes, if I got on it, you could hear it break up/taper off at the higher volumes.  I moved to the BHK mono’s which I felt sounded damn fine and had power for hours.  We recently moved and I was no longer going to have a nice big dedicated space, so I downsized to a set of PL 60.5’s and Harbeth Super HL5+’s.  I’m sure there are other systems out there that sound better, but to me, it sounds very relaxed and organic.  A guitar sounds like a guitar, I’m able to hear the decay on some recordings last a bit longer, drum tom’s have a little more ring to them...overall, it just sounds right to my ears.  

Eric is asking someone, why they do not like the sound of Pass amps, but, refuses to answer my same question to him, as I was the 1st poster to his thread. George, I am with you !

david_ten3,196 posts
With George on this one. He did not say / post that. Too bad the post was deleted since it can’t be copied.

Looks like admin found nothing wrong with the post also, and they have restored the post.
https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/1813040

Cheers George

I also own the pass xp-27 phono preamp

I've got a pass integrated amp int-60 I got a p 9 turntable with a condenza bronze ortfon cartridge and my speakers are emerald physics 2.4 and I've never been happier with that Arrangement ever and I'm never going to change it

George, for clarification, my "Truth's a hard pill to swallow" comment was directed at bjesien's post NOT yours or Erik's. Thanks.

Too bad the post was deleted since it can’t be copied.
Truth’s a hard pill to swallow

Just part of the deleted post
 
Roger Waters: Amused to Death
Classic line sung a few times by him through the album

"Give any one species too much rope and they’ll **** it up"

Cheers George

@bjesien  Truth's a hard pill to swallow. : ) 

I once called a Lyngdorf lover hard of hearing.  That was insensitive and mean.  They did however get rid of it, so maybe IQ does increase with age.

He said "another species."

Again with a "quote" I didn’t say, I feel sorry for you, you’ve lost it.

Now I hope the whole post does get re-instated, to show you and others what was said!

With George on this one. He did not say / post that. Too bad the post was deleted so it can't be copied.

I've asked admin to review it David, hope it get's re-instated as there was nothing about that it should have been deleted over.

Cheers George

I don't agree on this one, Erik. Perhaps it is because I'm not vested nor engaged in this thread. Outsider perspective.